parrafin wax bashing

[Crowded House]

Interesting, Top (and thanks for the heads-up about what constitues "renewable resources").

re: 0006 - obviously a subjective aesthetic observation, and a selling point.

re: 0007 - a little from column A, a little from column B. I have noticed a difference in the "odor" of paraffin vs soy vs beeswax (have not tried palm or other waxes purposefully) and they all smell different to me without FO.

Saying they "may" increase airborne compounds by being burned in an enclosed environment applies to any wax, obviously.

re: 0008 - absolutely true, unless the price of paraffin vs soy is being artificially controlled. Most paraffin waxes are almost twice the cost of what soycandle is letting the GB wax go for.

re: 0009 - obviously, YMMV.

There are a million companies that say they sell products that make your privates large--does everyone believe them? Can they still do it under our laws? Yes.

Actually no, they can't. Just like Ford can't show the road through an empty windshield and claim they have the clearest windshields ever, companies must make claims that appeal truthfully to "a reasonable consumer".

[Lugnut]

Top could you provide a link to where that is found. I have never read that or heard of most of the claims. Looks odd to me.

Personally I promote my candles very little. I make them as good as I can and people like them so they want more. For me it's about the fun in making them and seeing a nice product when I'm done. It also makes the house smell good.

Now, Back to bashing.

[Nicky]

I understand what you are saying about fragrance oils being the culpret in many people with asthma having breathing problems when burning candles period. Different things trigger breathing problems with asthmatics or people with other breathing problems. My children dont seem to have any reaction to fragrances. My daughter wears perfume, sprays air freshners, etc. and it doesnt bother her. On the other hand, my Grandmother is also asthmatic and can burn candles, as long as they arent scented. She cant even where perfume, and we cant wear it when we are around her.

I have asthma and I sleep in the same room I have my FO's in (It's just a hobby so don't need alot of extra room). I haven't had any problem with my breathing. Now let hubby spray his underarm stuff or the kids with there perfume and whatever and that's when I start to feel like an elephant is sitting on my chest. Weird how it works like that.

[Crowded House]

Top could you provide a link to where that is found. I have never read that or heard of most of the claims. Looks odd to me.

Here, maybe?

[geekrunner]

I sure jumped in on this one late!

My primary reason for using soy wax: it is easier to clean up the test jars!

geek

[Di_in_AZ]

Actually no, they can't. Just like Ford can't show the road through an empty windshield and claim they have the clearest windshields ever, companies must make claims that appeal truthfully to "a reasonable consumer".

I am talking about outrageous claims that companies make to sell their product. You live in the US and you have never seen the creams that enlarge your breasts or any of these diet claims? They are plastered all over cable tv. Whether they can or not, they do. The government only regulates certain things. Bath and body gets regulated a lot more that candles do, that is for sure, but it only takes a few searches to know I am speaking the truth. Go look at all the bogus health claims out there and that is more than proof enough that companies claim their products do all sorts of things that they don't.

Just on one quick search, look here:

http://natureday.com/

I am sure these people are REAL rich, I mean they have come up with a product that enlarges your breasts in just 10 days of taking their pills!!!

[annak]

Hi,

I just started making candles again after many years. My daughter satrted me at it because she buys her candles from a well known company that does the fund raisers at our local schools, and their candles are all just plain nasty with soot! They are expensive, and made from paraffine.

I don't have a problem with this wax as I don't have soot from the ones I create - plus this is the very wax our grand parents, and even some today use on the tops of their jelly and jams. I never got sick from that either!

I can't stand the candles from this huge company though - I sneeze and the soot is so bad I cannot tolerate it! So I took all of their candles and just reworked them by adding more plain parafine, additives, and my own fragrance. Now, they burn longer and no more soot. Go figure!

I have just started to experiment with Soy, Palm and Beeswax and am enjoying the fun of it all! They all have a place in the candle artisan's studio, and I plan on keeping it that way no matter what some people claim! We all know it is only an opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.. LOL

The only way to address the issue is to let everyone and anyone know, (put it into writing - flyers website and labels) that a truly dedicated candle artisan would not misrepresent their products, nor do they find fault with others artisans or companies publically (to yourself and nameless is just fine).

It is a matter of one's personal preferrence. As an artisan; you, we or me use the finest ingredients. create a product of the finest quality we can present/offer. We work hard to create a pleasing product by usng our knowledge, love, and a strong sence of integrity.

The words do not need to be in that exact phraseology but what comes from your heart - that is what I feel most people want to read and hear when they have a choice to make.

Almost everyone knows it when someone is using bull pucky to convince us to buy their candles. I just tell people if they can buy a better product - go for it - I am not going to stop them or nor do I care to. Most customers have a huge respect for that! It is all about the honesty and integrity! IMOHO:smiley2:

I have now jumped of of the Soap box too - but still liked standing on it for a little while! <smiles>

A new member - my first post - thanks for listening!

Cheers AnnaK

[CareBear]

Actually it is the media that is the primary gatekeeper of advertising claims, believe it or not. I've done a lot of claim support research and the media will rarely accept advertising without data to back up claims. And the competition too, but they have to spend money (which they gladly do) to fight claims in court. Government oversight only comes into it rarely. Sad, but true.

As a market research professional I do a lot of this stuff (although as I work with a fragrance mfg - not one that sells to us "little guys tho" - I don't do much of it now, but when I worked for a major consumer products company I did a lot of it).

Companies that make silly claims (like breast enhancing creams and absurd diets) usually make so much money off them that when they are stopped and fined they still come out quite profitable.

So while they are not "allowed" to make these claims, some do anyway. For them there is no downside as the repercussions are minimal.

[topofmurrayhill]

Top could you provide a link to where that is found. I have never read that or heard of most of the claims. Looks odd to me.

6,497,735 Vegetable lipid-based composition and candle

6,284,007 Vegetable lipid-based composition and candle

Additional applications:

20040200136 Vegetable lipid-based composition and candle

20030061760 Vegetable lipid-based composition and candle

20030008257 Vegetable lipid-based composition and candle

20010013195 Vegetable lipid-based composition and candle

Inventors: Tao; Bernard Y. (Lafayette, IN)

Assignee: Indiana Soybean Board (Indianapolis, IN)

http://www.indianasoybeanboard.com/WhoWeAre.shtml

http://www.indianasoybeanboard.com/candles.shtml

[topofmurrayhill]

Here's an interesting part about soy candles lasting longer than paraffin:

Combustion tests were performed to compare the vegetable lipid-based candles of the present invention with commercial paraffin candles...Candles of the following composition were placed on the scale: paraffin candles composed of 150 g of 100% medium paraffin wax and vegetable lipid-based candles containing 4% microcrystalline paraffin wax and 96% triglycerides having the following fatty acid components: 22.4% palmitic acid, 45.7% stearic acid, 28.9% oleic acid and 3.9% by weight linoleic acid. The experiment was run in duplicate for each candle composition.

All candles had identical wicks

and were present in identical containers.

The candles were burned for two hours and the mass loss rate was recorded. No significant variations in air composition or temperature occurred during the test period as the room was well-ventilated. The measured mass loss rates for the paraffin candles were 7.13 g/hour and 7.08 g/hour. The measured mass loss rates for the vegetable lipid-based candles were 3.72 g/hour and 4.10 g/hour. Therefore, the

vegetable lipid-based candles will burn approximately 80% longer

than commercial paraffin candles.

Notice they used identical wicks in paraffin and vegetable wax. The results are predictable. In real life we don't use the same wick in both and virtually no correctly wicked paraffin candle would burn at over 7 grams per hour. I routinely measure that in my own candles. Real burn rates for paraffin are similar to the veggie candles in this test and often less.

This seems like the University of Iowa study or identical to it. In addition to the burn rate measurements, they based their soot comparisons on the same flawed methodology.

[blazerina]

Lets face it- ultimately it is the consumers responsibility to know what they are buying. If I sold either products, I certainly wouldn't lie....or mislead intentionally. But I think it's pretty ridiculous all the law suits and all the reasons why we have warnings on our blow dryers to not use them in the bath tub... sometimes.........we are idiots, lol. 'We' meaning... the general public as consumers.

I do beleive that many who sell soy do so because they are pro soy --because they themselves have been misinformed. I didn't say ALL... I said 'many'. And I said that is what I 'beleive'. Lol. A lot are merely responding to the demand for it. We have all at one point or another been unduely impressed by some sales pitch or other... so I would not personally hold it against anyone if they perpetuated the misinformation regarding the aforementioned parrafin vs. soy myths. Sad as it is that this happens. It really is difficult to obtain unbiased information. For this reason, I think these boards are wonderful tools to help at least open the mind. As was mentioned earlier by one who works with retail claims... a company knows they can put out bad information and reap rewards, not punishment. By the time someone realizes it's a bogus claim, the information is out there and it's not eraseable. We must hold ourselves as consumers to the ultimate responsibility of knowing what we purchase. For crying out loud... don't trust 99.9% of what you read or hear! If I say I am 5'5 139 lbs on my drivers liscense... you know you probably shouldn't beleive it, lol.

I find this debate completely engrossing and imformative especially- you see I live in an area that is HIGHLY green oriented. I thought about putting my tarts in those little plastic food service cups... but I know that would so not fly. I'd be berated for creating so much plastic waste! Because of where I live I was intrigued by the idea that some M&P bases are labeled as having come from 'organic' materials. But upon further reading you realize that you CAN NOT claim it is organic...it is only MADE FROM SOME raw materials that are. Therefore, I will not buy and resell it based on that 'benefit'. It's like saying I made a salad with MOSTLY real food. Sure there is some gravel bits in there but hey.... at least SOME of it is real--woohoo. (if that is a stupid analogy, forgive me, It's late, lol) KNOWING that is has SOME cerfified organic material is irrelevant to me because I ALSO know that is has other that is not. My point is- Soy is the same way. To the average consumer (and I don't think the ones in my area are, lol) who will chose Soy, the fact that soy is perceived as 'more natural' will be THE reason they choose it-whether over parrafin or just at all. You can explain all the in depth pros of soy all you want, but they are already sold at 'natural'. And being silly gulible consumers we INFER one products naturalness as being another products un naturalness. Even if you don't say 'Soy burns cleaner'... just 'Soy burns with little soot'.... we think......'oh... the others are full of soot, I see.' Retailers/candle artisians should do their best to watch their wording, but ultimately the consumer hears what they want to hear. It doesnt offer any immediate resolution to this issue, but seriously, we really need to think about the next generation we are raising and do our best to head off the whole idea that if you read it on the internet, or even if your teacher said so... it must be true and you have no reason to question it. So much of all these posts are filled with pasted quotes from 'official' websites both for, neutral and against the issue at hand... based at least somewhat on someones own experience. And we are supposed to beleive it because you experienced it and put it in writing and said so yourself? Show me your title that shows you are a well renowned expert in the field and I MIGHT beleive you. Show me that you make NO money based on the things you say, and I MIGHT beleive you. An earlier poster said she will buy something if it says it's recycled and be appreciative for the alternative rather than question the integrity of the claim. It might be eye popping to be privy to the real fact that in the end, that recycled product took twice as much energy to produce. And it probably costs more.... who does this benefit??? I hope i'm not getting too off track here... in my mind it all relates to the debate over which is best. Many here are well imformed and thus say both are good for their own reasons... now if we can just teach our kids, friends, husbands, mother in laws, etc... to be more cynical and less trusting, lol. It's a good thing, really!!!

[lsbennis]

Personally I don't see any of these big Paraffin candle companies going out of business based on what someone said about soy. Yankme still sells tons of candles regardless of the fact that they are paraffin. I went in one of their stores the other day and asked them if they made a soy version of their candles...they said they had them for a short time but there was not a market for them and then the manager went on to tell me all the benefits of a paraffin candle. This did not send me into a head spinning foaming tail spin because they were promoting the benefits of a paraffin candle. They have every right in the world to do so honestly!

Lets face it soy is most likely not going anywhere and will be in the market as an alternative to paraffin. I believe that paraffin will probably always have the market share of candle purchases so there really is no need to get insecure and feel that everyone is going to stop buying paraffin candles based on what some one said about it. So why don't we stop bashing the people who are responsibly and truthfully promoting their soy candles and just try and make the best candles we can regardless of the source of wax!

[lsbennis]

Crowded House...Wikipedia and many other sources discuss what constitutes a renewable resource. Fossil fuels don't qualify because they're used up much faster than they can be replenished.

.

Ok...I'm a little confused about this statement perhaps you can clarify this. Regardless of length of time needed to replenish a fossil fuel how is that even possible! Once its gone that it there is no way to replenish it there just are no more resources on this planet to create the conditions that would be needed to replenish this fuel no matter how long it took!

[lsbennis]

Quoting Blazerina...An earlier poster said she will buy something if it says it's recycled and be appreciative for the alternative rather than question the integrity of the claim. It might be eye popping to be privy to the real fact that in the end, that recycled product took twice as much energy to produce. And it probably costs more.... who does this benefit???

I said that and in most cases it takes much less energy to use recycled material then virgin...there are a few exception like plastic.

Recycling Can Save Energy.

It almost always takes less energy to make a product from recycled materials than it does to make it from new materials. Using recycled aluminum scrap to make new aluminum cans, for example, uses 95 percent less energy than making aluminum cans from bauxite ore, the raw material used to make aluminum. One exception to the recycling-saves-energy rule is plastics. Sometimes it takes more energy to recycle plastics than it does to use all new materials...Wikipedia

[Candle Makin Momma]

This debate will never end. Nothing anyone says on here is going to change anyone's mind.

Use all this energy on making candles, whether it's parraffin, soy, beeswax or blends. I prefer 100% soy by the way

[Crowded House]

I live in an area that is HIGHLY green oriented. I thought about putting my tarts in those little plastic food service cups... but I know that would so not fly. I'd be berated for creating so much plastic waste!

See, I find a lot of merit in packaging and claiming that your product is packaged in a "green" way. Many people want candles but want to contribute to landfills as little as possible. Packaging in recycled materials and packaging to a minimum is a great (and legitimate!) selling point.

Of course once again this can apply to candles of any wax.

[itsmejeffd]

It's not direct bashing. It's just implying a superiority that doesn't exist and not addressing the quality of the product. Consumers need to know what a quality product is and how to use it. What they're being taught about waxes isn't for their benefit but for the benefit of people trying to sell them something.

Oil isn't drilled to make candles. It's drilled for energy. Energy that's expended on, for instance, the factory that manufactures vegetable shortening for your candles, or the aircraft that sprays the fields, the machines that harvest the beans and the refinery where they're processed.

Paraffin is a useful by-product and there's no disadvantage to using it. It doesn't matter one little bit whether it's "renewable" or not. That's just an eco-buzzword being exploited to generate soy mystique and mislead the consumer. Salad oil is a renewable resource too, but if it came out of the ground it would be just as OK to use.

All you are doing here is repeating the slogans of the people who originally came up with the idea that veggie blends and veggie candles would be marketable and profitable. It's a chain of BS being handed down from one person to another for the purpose of making a buck on hype.

Excellent points, as usual, Top.

To expand on the "by-product" issue: Yes, paraffin is a by-product of oil refinement. It's going to keep being produced as long as we are demanding petroleum products. As far as I know, candle manufacturing accounts for the majority of paraffin use (at least in the U.S.). If we stopped using paraffin for candles, where would all that paraffin (that would continue to be produced) wind up? Land fills? If that's the case, couldn't a paraffin candle be deemed "eco-friendly" because it's helping to reduce land fills?

[Crowded House]

A little off-topic, but I think if we stopped using paraffin for candles and food we'd find something else to do with it.

That is how deisel fuel started out, after all (as a byproduct).

[lsbennis]

I think any candle can be considered "Green" if a paraffin candle company uses eco friendly processes to produce that candle cuts way down wasteful packaging and uses recycled whenever neccessary plus give back to the environment through various viable charities then I would buy that candle before a soy candle any day to support their efforts. Making an eco-friendly candle goes way beyond the wax!

[Jcandleattic]

Now if I read what I posted right, I made NO mention of Soy candles being better than paraffin. The only thing I said about paraffin candles are they clog the gas logs up--which HAS been proven. I DO know this for a fact because we have 2 gas fireplaces not even 3 years old and we have replaced the logs at least once in each of them---they should have lasted a good 10 years. We WERE told by someone who has been in the gas fireplace business for 10 years that the paraffin candles are what did it--I always bought them and burned them---from a major candle company. Since gas fireplaces are a huge industry here I am just trying to save others the expense of having to prematurely replace the logs.

This is a load of BS!!!

I have been burning paraffin candles my whole life, and when my hub and I purchased our home 10 years ago, WITH a gas fireplace I burned candles. Then when I started making paraffin candles I burned a whole lot more than the average person would because of testing purposes. Burned them (sometimes 5-6 at a time) right there on the mantle on top of the fireplace.

Guess what. We have NEVER had a single problem with our fireplace. NOT ONE!! Soo, if what you are saying is true, and were told by "someone" that it's the paraffin, wouldn't my fireplace, which I happen to use almost on a daily basis pretty much all winter long, have some major problems by now???

And I love the bs line of saying this is "just trying to save others the expense of having to prematurely replace the logs" LMAO

Just cracks me up.. lol

[Tess]

Quote...I am think of handing out that info when the soy liars are setting up shop 2 doors down from me!!!

Tess...I don't think that all people who sell soy candles are liars, I'm sure there are plenty who may be seriously misinformed and yes there are probably quite a few who will say anything to sell there candle but that is not exclusive to just soy candle makers.

First I did not say "all people who sell soy candles are liars". What I said was "the soy liars 2 doors down from me." Meaning those idiots who are clearly "lying" aout soy just to make a sale.

And Yes a lie is a lie, weather intentional or not. Just because someone is ignorant does not give them an excuse to spread lies.

I only have one comment on this. You believeing what the company (who sells the products) says, that is exactly the problem. Of course they are going to promote that. They ARE TRYING to make a sale. Cmon people you are sales people here.

You really should read the wording on this a bit more thouroughly though. They mention it is their goal to use "american soy beans". They do not state that they ONLY use american soy beans because that would be impossible. They have a well paid sales administrator who is paid to know how to word information without outright lying. We will call it a white lie.

This is taken directly from the Ecosoya site...if in fact this information is not true and is purposely misleading the consumer then there needs to be a class action law suit to settle this issue!

[lsbennis]

Geeez...I had enough of this debate I need to get back to perfecting my candles cause my soy candles seem to be sooting like crazy lately and it is not the pretty white soot either...lol

[topofmurrayhill]

You know, I really do think this is a worthwhile debate even if it's an old one. I always learn more in the course of the discussion and new perspectives are introduced by people. Lots of folks do read and learn here. I don't think it's true to say that nobody's mind changes. If any candlemaking subject needs the contrarian view to be presented once in a while it's this one.

It's been suggested that people are insecure about their paraffin candles. I really doubt that's true. I think the objection to soy hype comes from respect for candles as a product and caring about correct information. When you introduce hype and a "wax camp" it takes away from the important issues of producing quality product and educating the consumer about quality and usage of candles.

More and more I'm seeing that the hype about soy originates from interests that don't care primarily about candles. More specifically, the Iowa Soybean Association and the Indiana Soybean Board. They supported and often own the patents. They funded the biased research. Their mission is to help their members make money, including finding ways to sell more soybeans.

Probably the one most honest claim you can make about soy candles is that they help support farmers. Why that should be on a candle label I don't know, unless maybe you're a patriotic resident of one of those soybean states. Personally I'm not for or against anyone in the supply chain for my ingredients. Commerce always helps some segment of the economy.

[Scented]

My beef with it comes from people selling it who are linked to the chain pushers -- the Mia Bellas. Now they do hold the wax camps (teach you how to sell) and it never fails that something new gets thrown in the marketplace ... two years ago (here) it was paraffin causes cancer and a stream of other riff raff. Now how does this affect me as a paraffin seller? Well the same people come into my booth, pick up the candles, admire them for the color and scent and THEN ask if they are soy. The answer is no. Could they just put the candle back? No, they immediately drop it and ruin it as if they just caught the plaque. And where does all this come from? Why the speil out there from the soy folks. Some immediately think they've been poisoned. Others pipe off oh that will ruin my oil paintings. Oh this is the stuff made from leftover oil that they change out of cars ...

So as a candlemaker, I feel it's only right to try to help the consumers understand the hype. Hype is for marketing and in some cases totally blown out of proportion. It isn't going to stop the soy nazis (yes they do exist) from not pitching a legitimate campaign (ack, what they feel is legit), but I would appreciate that the use of promotions be straight forward and more honest by the soy wax users here and on other boards. I expect that same kind of honesty in promoting ones product to come from anyone who crafts it. I would hope they would be on the up and up about it, most times they aren't. And I don't mind getting educated about many things, including this debate.

[Di_in_AZ]

My beef with it comes from people selling it who are linked to the chain pushers -- the Mia Bellas. Now they do hold the wax camps (teach you how to sell) and it never fails that something new gets thrown in the marketplace ... two years ago (here) it was paraffin causes cancer and a stream of other riff raff. Now how does this affect me as a paraffin seller? Well the same people come into my booth, pick up the candles, admire them for the color and scent and THEN ask if they are soy. The answer is no. Could they just put the candle back? No, they immediately drop it and ruin it as if they just caught the plaque. And where does all this come from? Why the speil out there from the soy folks. Some immediately think they've been poisoned. Others pipe off oh that will run my oil paintings. Oh this is the stuff made from leftover oil that they change out of cars ...

So as a candlemaker, I feel it's only right to try to help the consumers understand the hype. Hype is for marketing and in some cases totally blown out of proportion. It isn't going to stop the soy nazis (yes they do exist) from not pitching a legitimate campaign, but I would appreciate that the use of promotions be straight forward and more honest by the soy wax users here and on other boards. I expect that same kind of honesty in promoting ones product to come from anyone who crafts it. I would hope they would be on the up and up about it, most times they aren't. And I don't mind getting educated about many things, including this debate.

You read my mind Scented. That is exactly what ticks me off. I have had it happen at my stall and I don't even waste my time anymore with these people. They have to have a pin brain to believe it in the first place and an ego issue to stand there and act as if they are somehow better because they use soy. It is all hot air and theatrics.

I did, at one time, spend the time to explain the truth, but they don't want to hear the truth. It is so much more dramatic to look down your nose and pretend you know it all. At the last show I did, I had one lady come and start on about soy and I just told her it was paraffin, they only wax I would use. She just left and I just carried on selling candles. Best ignored I think because I think this whole thing is going to blow over shortly.