parrafin wax bashing

[topofmurrayhill]

The point is simply that there's no reason to think using vegetable shortening is more environmentally sound than using paraffin. The only reason to label it as a renewable resource is to make it sound like it is, which is dishonest hype.

As far as this not being a comparison to paraffin, that seems like an evasion. It doesn't say renewable resource on a bottle of Crisco oil, which is made of the same stuff. Presumably because it isn't the "renewable resource alternative" to some other kind of oil.

I'm not contradicting the Founding Fathers. I'm just saying what's lame. Advertising the benefits of the wax is lame for any kind of candle, because it doesn't matter. Why should consumers care what freakin wax is in the candle? They're not chandlers.

Soy wax is trendy and you're on the bandwagon is all it really says. You can do that whether you make a good candle or not and it sells.

[lsbennis]

Well I'm happy that is how you feel Top and you certainly are entitled to your opinions which you obiviously have no problem letting them be known. However it is rude and ignorant to push your views onto someone else and then call them dishonest because they do not fit into your box.

Quote..."The only reason to label it as a renewable resource is to make it sound like it is, which is dishonest hype."

...again that is your opinion, this is important to me and alot of people I know. I use renewable and recycled resources in my home all the time. When I buy recycled paper towels I do not look at it and think...hype or scam or that my local store is being dishonest and trying to rip me off! I appreciate the fact that that option is offered to me and I will always choose a renewable product over another. That is my core value and to slam it because you don't agree with it is extremly narrow minded and unprofessional.

Quote...Why should consumers care what freakin wax is in the candle? They're not chandlers.

...again your opinion...you may not care but that does not mean the rest of the world doesn't just because Top says so. I do not make cosmetics but I care what is in them...I do not make cars but I one that is a hybrid...I do not make paper towels or TP but I buy recycled only. You do not have to be the chandler or producer of the product to care how its made or what is in it. I buy a lot of products based on what it is made or not made out of and how it is benneficial.

Quote...Soy wax is trendy and you're on the bandwagon is all it really says. You can do that whether you make a good candle or not and it sells.

again your opinion...soy wax may be popular right now but it will die out just like anything else. But to state that I'm on some kind of band wagon and lying is way out of line, those are just my core values and have been for over 20yrs so whether soy is popular or not I will continue to use it because it is a renewable resource.

I'm asking you nicely to please stop slamming my values and my integrity on this forum it does not make you look like a very proffessional or nice person!

[topofmurrayhill]

I'm asking you nicely to please stop slamming my values and my integrity on this forum it does not make you look like a very proffessional or nice person!

It's not about you. I think it's a worthwhile debate. You made a stand in defense of the eco-wax marketing trend and I welcome the opportunity to present the contrarian argument. You could have made a case for your point of view rather than taking it all personally.

[Crowded House]

It doesn't say renewable resource on a bottle of Crisco oil, which is made of the same stuff. Presumably because it isn't the "renewable resource alternative" to some other kind of oil.

I suppose this could apply to either side of the debate but the bio-diesel people certainly seem to be pushing the "renewable resource" aspect of vegetable oil-related fuels.

Ethanol has been around quite a bit longer than soy wax, too, and doesn't appear to be in the "passing fad" category any longer.

[Jane42]

My partner and I were having this discussion last night. She has had several people ask her if we make soy candles, and we have lost some sales because we don't. We started testing soy about 6 months ago. We want to have soy because that is what people are asking for BUT we don't plan on discontinuing the paraffin. I, personally, do not care for the soy. Perhaps we haven't gotten it "right" yet, but with some of the waxes we have tested the candles have not been attractive....I am not pleased at all with the frosting issues or the "bumpy tops" on the jars. But she is determined that we will carry soy, so we continue to test.

The biggest issue I have right now, tho, is what do I say when people ask me what is the difference? My standard answer has been "some people prefer the soy wax, and it is easier to clean the container it was burned in". Pretty lame, I know, but that is all I can come up with. This thread has just confused me more.

If a customer is looking for a soy candle because they prefer "all natural" and made from "renewable sources" (some of our vegan customers opinion), far be it from me to stop them in their tracks and explain exactly why that is not true. I don't believe that would be in my best interests if I am trying to SELL THEM ONE. They have already decided what they want, in our case....they are not being SOLD on the soy...they already THINK they know all about it and they want it.

Still stumped on what to say, tho....but I appreciate everyone's opinion.

[lsbennis]

It's not about you. I think it's a worthwhile debate. You made a stand in defense of the eco-wax marketing trend and I welcome the opportunity to present the contrarian argument. You could have made a case for your point of view rather than taking it all personally.

I did make a case for my point of view and yes I did take it personally when your comments contain words that would leave me no other option but to take them as being directed to me personally.....

qutoe....Soy wax is trendy and you're on the bandwagon is all it really says.

I'm not going to keep going on with this I have made my point and so have you so lets just agree to disagree!

BTW...good point Crowded House

[lsbennis]

Jane...in my opinion I would tell them what the "true" facts are not the hype about the product. It is only natural for people to want to know about someting they heard of or may be new on the market. In most cases soy candles are not organic or natural due to color fo and even the process used to make the wax itself...but it is a renewable source of wax and it is easy to clean up with soap and water amd as far as I know it does come from the American Farmers... but it will not soot any less then any other candle if it is not wicked properly. HTH

[topofmurrayhill]

I suppose this could apply to either side of the debate but the bio-diesel people certainly seem to be pushing the "renewable resource" aspect of vegetable oil-related fuels. Ethanol has been around quite a bit longer than soy wax, too, and doesn't appear to be in the "passing fad" category any longer.

Our economy and culture depend on the availability and price of energy. Those sources are both renewable and domestic, which seems like a good thing. I think Brazil became energy-independent that way as far as what cars are fueled on.

[Crowded House]

I think Brazil became energy-independent that way as far as what cars are fueled on.

So ethanol is the Anti-Drug fuel?

I see a difference between hype and hyperbole, too. It may be hype to push the "renewable resource" aspect of soy when it comes to candles, but it isn't much different, in my opinion, than touting the energy and resource savings that recycling offers (in some cases it's true, on the other hand some things actually take more resources and energy to recycle them than it would to just create new). It's a simple way to advertise a newer product/service by offering facts through catchy/memorable phrases and terms.

Hyperbole begins when you go the "burns completely clean!" "you can even eat it!" "paraffin kills!" and "recycling will save the Earth!" route. None of these things are based in fact nor do they do the product or the customer a service to pass them along.

[topofmurrayhill]

So ethanol is the Anti-Drug fuel?

Let's hope not. The availability and price of drugs is important too. Plus they're a renewable resource.

[Crowded House]

Let's hope not. The availability and price of drugs is important too. Plus they're a renewable resource.

[CareBear]

t AND cause you to hallucinate.

All this time all I needed was PARAFFIN? Damn, think of all the money I've wasted

[Henryk]

Oh yea? And maybe if all of you paraffin and soy users would quit drilling and plowing away at the earth my beeswax would be cheaper. j/k

[Candle Makin Momma]

LMAO Henry!

[katy]

I think that if you have to bash someone else candles then yours must really suck. (I meen that in the nicest way possible) Opinions are like A**holes (everybody has one) I love all candles and I make both soy and parr. I like parr better. I would love to see some TRUE FACTS that show proof one is better than the other.

imo

[Tess]

Ok, another question. Do we know what EXACTLY causes the soot.

Uuuhhhh Maybe perhaps THE FLAME??? Yes the Fo's, the Eo's, the anything that is flammable will produce soot.

ANYTHING and EVERYTHING with an open flame WILL produce some sort of soot. Weather or not you can see it.

[Tess]

but it is a renewable source of wax and it is easy to clean up with soap and water amd as far as I know it does come from the American Farmers...

Okay this is the whole case and point. I true example of WHY this thread was started. It is all about hype and what you have heard (You being generalized of course). So because some Joe Blow "said" it was made by American Farmers? LOL whatever . It is made by some poor Mexican making bottom dollar trying to support a family. Yes there are "SOME" American soy crops with actual farmers and not machines running them. But guess what there about 1000 oil wells in a 50 mile radius from where I sit at this moment. So I could EASILy say that by buying paraffin you are supporting the American Oil Rig worker. Heck they need jobs too. Those guys work ALOT harder and more than any farmer I have ever met.

Hey Top I know you usually have some backup in research behind your comments. I would "REALLY" be interested to see some facts especially on the whole soy is not "truly renewable issue". I am think of handing out that info when the soy liars are setting up shop 2 doors down from me!!!

[Crowded House]

I would "REALLY" be interested to see some facts especially on the whole soy is not "truly renewable issue".

I'm sure Top will correct me if I'm wrong but I think the point was that paraffin and soy are both technically "renewable resources". Plants grow, decaying matter turns to oil.

One just takes longer to "renew".

[romasoy]

The biggest reason I tell people that my candles are soy is because I work in the healthcare field also and soy wax allergies are on the rise. I, under no circumstances, want anyone to be sick or potentially die. All that would be due to my stupidity in not revealing that my candles are made of soy wax.

The point is simply that there's no reason to think using vegetable shortening is more environmentally sound than using paraffin. The only reason to label it as a renewable resource is to make it sound like it is, which is dishonest hype.

As far as this not being a comparison to paraffin, that seems like an evasion. It doesn't say renewable resource on a bottle of Crisco oil, which is made of the same stuff. Presumably because it isn't the "renewable resource alternative" to some other kind of oil.

I'm not contradicting the Founding Fathers. I'm just saying what's lame. Advertising the benefits of the wax is lame for any kind of candle, because it doesn't matter. Why should consumers care what freakin wax is in the candle? They're not chandlers.

Soy wax is trendy and you're on the bandwagon is all it really says. You can do that whether you make a good candle or not and it sells.

[romasoy]

I live in Northern Indiana and I know for a fact that some of the farms around me grow their beans for one of the companies that manufacture the soy wax. How do I know this? because I went to 2 different farms to see about purchasing raw soy wax beans for my customers and they told me all their beans are shipped to this company shortly after harvested and they couldn't give me any. So, this in my opinion, would warrent the words "grown by american farmers" because I live in America and it's around me that these beans are grown.

Okay this is the whole case and point. I true example of WHY this thread was started. It is all about hype and what you have heard (You being generalized of course). So because some Joe Blow "said" it was made by American Farmers? LOL whatever . It is made by some poor Mexican making bottom dollar trying to support a family. Yes there are "SOME" American soy crops with actual farmers and not machines running them. But guess what there about 1000 oil wells in a 50 mile radius from where I sit at this moment. So I could EASILy say that by buying paraffin you are supporting the American Oil Rig worker. Heck they need jobs too. Those guys work ALOT harder and more than any farmer I have ever met.

Hey Top I know you usually have some backup in research behind your comments. I would "REALLY" be interested to see some facts especially on the whole soy is not "truly renewable issue". I am think of handing out that info when the soy liars are setting up shop 2 doors down from me!!!

[lsbennis]

Quote...I am think of handing out that info when the soy liars are setting up shop 2 doors down from me!!!

Tess...I don't think that all people who sell soy candles are liars, I'm sure there are plenty who may be seriously misinformed and yes there are probably quite a few who will say anything to sell there candle but that is not exclusive to just soy candle makers.

I get all my info from the Ecosoya website since that is the soy that I use...If anything I say is untrue then that should be taken up with the manufacturer if they are spreading lies and unthruths about their products to purposely mis lead the public.

[lsbennis]

This is taken directly from the Ecosoya site...if in fact this information is not true and is purposely misleading the consumer then there needs to be a class action law suit to settle this issue!

EcoSoya™ waxes are created with pure, 100% natural soybeans. Some of our waxes are then enhanced with carefully selected botanical oils. EcoSoya™ waxes are non-petroleum renewable resources, promoting the growth and care of our environment while burning crisp and clean with a gentle natural glow. Enjoy the coziness of biodegradable EcoSoya™ while doing something good for yourself and the environment.

Our philosophy at Nature's Gifts is: Caring for Our Environment. While we must use natural resources, we strive to be respectful and appreciative for the Earth's bounty. Our ingredients are grown from rich fertile soils and turned into biodegradable EcoSoya™ , providing a renewable, sustainable wax that encourages growth without depletion.

Research began on EcoSoya™ waxes in 1992 with the goal of creating all-natural waxes from renewable resources. Much like Thomas Edison in searching for the right filament to make a light bulb, we tested and developed countless materials and processes to produce our current EcoSoya™ waxes. We have set the benchmark for any vegetable based wax with our quality and performance.

We focus on using domestically grown crops, starting with soybeans from which the oil is separated. That crude oil is purified to give pristine soybean oil which then goes through a process called hydrogenation turning it into a solid. All our waxes are made from soybeans with exacting consistency from batch to batch. Unlike other vegetable or soy waxes on the market, EcoSoya™ waxes are 100% vegetable, guaranteed! There are no beeswax or petroleum products hidden in it. Depending on the blend we then add the finest botanical oils available to give EcoSoya™ waxes their unparalleled characteristics and performances. These ingredients are processed under close supervision with careful regard for secrecy. Only a select few people know the actual ingredients and how our wax is made after it is hydrogenated. Every ingredient has met with the approval of the United States Food and Drug Administration and Kosher Certification criteria. EcoSoya™ soy waxes are FREE from pesticides, herbicides and Genetically Modified Material. Every pound of our wax is analyzed in a state of the art laboratory to assure its quality. Only after receiving a Certificate of Analysis guaranteeing our high standards does any wax leave the plant.

[topofmurrayhill]

Crowded House...Wikipedia and many other sources discuss what constitutes a renewable resource. Fossil fuels don't qualify because they're used up much faster than they can be replenished.

Tess...I'm no expert on environmentalism but I understand there's a serious philosophy behind it. If you take it seriously, what should matter is the spirit and science of it. In other words, what truly benefits the environment versus what sounds good on a product label.

Soybean oil is a renewable resource, but what environmental scientist has ever backed up the idea that it's better for the environment to burn vegetable shortening rather of paraffin? Based on what information we have, it just doesn't matter.

What the renewable resources thing means is simply that paraffin may become too expensive to use someday, but on the soy candle labels it implies something different from that.

[topofmurrayhill]

Here's the original source of the soy wax claims that have been repeated ever since. Judge the credibility for yourself. Are they trying to be accurate or are they trying to sell a money making idea?

[0006] Large candles produced predominately from petroleum products exhibit poor aesthetic properties. Petroleum waxes decrease in volume upon solidifying from a liquid melt (i.e. density of the solid is greater than the liquid). Most candles produced from petroleum products, such as 3-6 inch diameter pillar candles, tend to exhibit the formation of a concave surface or the formation of gaps or holes on the interior of the candle. [Veggie candles look better than paraffin candles because paraffin shrinks.]

[0007] Candles produced from petroleum waxes additionally produce a black smoke upon burning and generally exhibit an unpleasant odor...The black smoke of petroleum-based candles contains polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, metals, and sulfur compounds that may be carcinogenic and/or toxic. Burning these candles in an enclosed environment increases the concentrations of these compounds and could therefore increase the detrimental effects associated with these compounds. [based on falsified research funded by Cargill and EPA studies that were addressed earlier in this thread and elsewhere.]

[0008] The cost of using petroleum products in candles will likely increase due to the low supply and increasing demand. The production of petroleum waxes is being reduced because petroleum refining processes are constantly being improved to maximize quantities of short chain hydrocarbons and aromatic chemicals. [The real basis of the renewable resources benefit.]

[0009] As a result, there is a need for a candle composition that minimizes the risk to human health upon burning, utilizes renewable resources while minimizing or eliminating use of petrochemical-derived products, and has a naturally pleasing odor. This invention addresses that need.

[Di_in_AZ]

A company that is selling a product is not a reliable source IMO. There are a million companies that say they sell products that make your privates large--does everyone believe them? Can they still do it under our laws? Yes. That is just an obvious example--but come on guys, these companies have their bottom line to consider when they make claims about their products, they are not UNBIASED. I am not saying they are outright lying, but their aren't any definitive, unbiased tests done on soy so how can they claim this to be true? Not like they are going to say anything negative regarding their product.