parrafin wax bashing

[funnygirl]

"The production of soy candles keeps coca farming to a minimum in Brazil - Soy Candles: The Anti-Drug Candle!" doesn't bash paraffin but it is hyperbole.

ROFLMAO!!!!! That is SO funny! You know someone is gonna put that on their website now! santalol

[lsbennis]

Yikes...there will most likely never be an end to this debate all I can say is that I appreciate all the info people have taken the time to post and because of that I have become a lot more accepting of Paraffin then before and if we could just get the facts and not the hype I think it would make a difference.:highfive:

[amachs03]

The Anti- Drug candle:laugh2: ???? Wow...that's all Im saying...Wait one more thing.....Did you come up with that????

[Di_in_AZ]

I still disagree. Every product out there "bashes" the other products by default when they say that theirs are "better" for whatever reason.

I see the problem not being "bashing" another product but using hyperbole to artificially elevate your own product. "The production of soy candles helps to support American soy farmers" doesn't bash parrafin nor is it neccessarily hyperbole. "The production of soy candles keeps coca farming to a minimum in Brazil - Soy Candles: The Anti-Drug Candle!" doesn't bash paraffin but it is hyperbole.

I was stating the context in which that statement was made. It is not an argument. It was my opinion. Those statements about soy farmers aren't in any relation to paraffin. Saying that they are the clean burning candle or don't soot, as in relation to ______, is what I was referring to. I don't exactly get what you are disagreeing with me over. From what I can tell, you feel pretty much the way I do.

[Di_in_AZ]

Now, I stopped useing J-223 when my 2 asthmatic children where laying in their rooms each night gasping for breath and I couldnt figure out why.

If anyone would like to come to my home and conduct a study on paraffin VS soy around asthmatics, I wont charge ya too much!

Sorry, my friend's daughter died from an asthma attack. I would never burn scented candles around asthmatics period. Not worth the risk IMO. I tell my customers that, regardless soy or paraffin, according to the EPA the most toxic thing on any candle is the fragrance oil. Fragrances are responsible for so many attacks in asthmatics that to me it does not make a difference in what the delivery method, they should not be used. It may not bother them now, but you can never predict what would trigger an attack, a risk I would never take.

[Darwin]

I have gotten a soy candle from a famous, well-known company, and there was black soot all over the top of the jar when it burned at the bottom of the jar.

[Crowded House]

I was stating the context in which that statement was made. It is not an argument. It was my opinion. Those statements about soy farmers aren't in any relation to paraffin. Saying that they are the clean burning candle or don't soot, as in relation to ______, is what I was referring to. I don't exactly get what you are disagreeing with me over. From what I can tell, you feel pretty much the way I do.

You could be right , and I don't mean to come across like I'm picking on you. Perhaps I just need some clarification.

You said:

When you say something is a benefit, you are claiming that it has properties that are advantageous over similar items--benefit means an advantage. So even if you don't say paraffin, you are IMPLYING it.

"Our candles burn cleanly" doesn't necessarily imply that paraffin is bad. Someone could just as easily say that their paraffin candles burn cleanly. Does that imply that beeswax burns sooty?

It is ridiculous. Stand on the merits of your product. If your products don't have anything selling points other than to bash another product, then you should not be in the business.

But how can someone stand on the merits of their product if any time they claim a benefit to their product they are automatically bashing paraffin, even if they don't say paraffin?

Maybe you're right and I am just being pedantic here. I do see a difference between "Soy=good, paraffin=bad" and "Our candles burn cleanly." What I disagree with is that the latter automatically "bashes" paraffin in an unfair way because that statement could be made by any candlemaker no matter what wax they use.

[Bill]

Thank You Thank You Thank You:cheesy2: to everyone who has posted for both sides of the argument. It has been a huge help for me to see the story from both sides and what claims can be made and which ones can't.

Bill

[Crowded House]

The Anti- Drug candle:laugh2: ???? Wow...that's all Im saying...Wait one more thing.....Did you come up with that????

Yes, but it's not on my site.

[Di_in_AZ]

You could be right , and I don't mean to come across like I'm picking on you. Perhaps I just need some clarification.

You said:

"Our candles burn cleanly" doesn't necessarily imply that paraffin is bad. Someone could just as easily say that their paraffin candles burn cleanly. Does that imply that beeswax burns sooty?

But how can someone stand on the merits of their product if any time they claim a benefit to their product they are automatically bashing paraffin, even if they don't say paraffin?

Maybe you're right and I am just being pedantic here. I do see a difference between "Soy=good, paraffin=bad" and "Our candles burn cleanly." What I disagree with is that the latter automatically "bashes" paraffin in an unfair way because that statement could be made by any candlemaker no matter what wax they use.

I didn't think you were picking on me, I just didn't understand what you were disagreeing with. I understand what you are saying now--I thought you were taking what I said to mean anything:D , I didn't see where you were going with the comment--now I understand, puts it in a different perspective.

[funnygirl]

I understand what you are saying about fragrance oils being the culpret in many people with asthma having breathing problems when burning candles period. Different things trigger breathing problems with asthmatics or people with other breathing problems. My children dont seem to have any reaction to fragrances. My daughter wears perfume, sprays air freshners, etc. and it doesnt bother her. On the other hand, my Grandmother is also asthmatic and can burn candles, as long as they arent scented. She cant even where perfume, and we cant wear it when we are around her. This is the reason why I would never tout soy as being "safe" to burn around asthmatics like some people do. I guess I could say in my experiance in does burn cleaner than paraffin because that is my opinion, but I am not a scientist and have never measured toxins emitted from soy versus paraffin so I can say nothing about facts. What I do say is that my soy candles are made with 100% soy wax and fragrance oils. No dyes, no additives. Customers that like soy already know they like it and that is who I am marketing to. I dont feel the need to hype my soy candles up by saying "soy is better than paraffin" or whatever. My goal isnt to convert paraffin users to soy, as I sell paraffin also. I have had A LOT of people ask me if soy is healthier, better, cleaner, etc. Or the biggest question I get, "Does soy throw better paraffin?". IMHO no it doesnt. I have had to work really hard to get my soy to throw like my paraffin did. Soy is way picky when it comes to finding FO's that throw great, but I have gotten my soy candles to throw as good as my J-223 did, but I wouldnt say better. Anyway, I am not offended when I see people pointing out the benifits of soy, as long as they dont go into "paraffin is bad". I seriously doubt that palm users are offended by people pointing out the benifits of soy. JMO.

[BruceCarvesWax]

Those of us that make candles for a living have to promote our products. In promoting our products some of the statements made will throw a better light (pardon the pun) on our products. That's called business. That's how the business world operates and how every major company in business makes their money. You know the quotes... "quality is job one" "be all you can be" and my favorite one " living LARGE" lol. Do you think at the other car companies quality is job two??? If you are in the army your "not" being all you can be? I don't think so, it can be said about most all of them just like the statements about waxes.

Another thing, with so many kinds of waxes each having things we like and things we don't, how can we just split it down the middle and say soy vs paraffin? Plus this is just a guess but I'm thinking most (not all) of the soy candles that are retailed are blends of soy and paraffin. I'm guessing again but i would say about 75% of the candles marketed as soy are blends. You can call your candle "soy" if its 51% soy wax or call it natural wax if its 51% soy/cotton seed with paraffin.

I think one of the biggest false claims anyone can make, is saying its a soy candle and bashing paraffin when they use both in their products. Plenty of those people out there that's for sure. Lots of good bad and ugly in the candle business we see it all that's for sure.

Well I keep getting interrupted with people calling me wanting to buy my damn candles so I lost my train of thought. More points I wanted to hit on but they will have to wait.

Bruce

[Tizimarezie]

This "debate" has been enlightening and I appreciate the education. IF I ever decide to sell my soy candles, I will certainly not be bashing paraffin. However, the biggest and probably the SOLE reason for my wanting to make soy candles is because after years of burning Gold Canyon's yummy [paraffin] candles, someone gave me a soy candle and I was completely impressed by the clean burn. I am guilty of marathon burning candles (I know, I know...I see you shaking your head! )...and the rims of the GC candle jars would end up black with soot. The soy candle I was given did not and I burned it in the same way, in the same place. Further, I have marathon burned (over and over) a soy candle I made in an 8oz JJ which I considered to be overwicked and over fragranced (1.75oz pp )...and STILL got no black soot around the rim of the jar. So, I tend to believe (based on my OWN experiences) that soy DOES burn cleaner. UNLESS, is it possible that there really IS soot around the rim of the container....it's just a color that's not visible to the eye????

Oh, and so you'll know that I'm not against paraffin, I bought a Yankee votive the other day because I loved what I smelled ("Christmas Wreath"). I'm burning it for the second time this morning and am amazed at the poor wicking. The flame is about to drown out....(so much for the yummy scent ). For that reason, I'll not purchase another Yankee. But, I digress......

So, bottom line...I like the clean burn I've experienced with soy and I like the easy soap and water clean up. As far as "longer lasting"...I don't buy that, either. I made and burned some soy candles that are gobbled up in a quicker amount of time than a paraffin would have. It's all in the wicking (as far as my own experiences).

Okay...I didn't want to enter this debate but was a wee confused about why I was experienceing a clean burn and others are saying it's not true.

:tiptoe:

[lsbennis]

I agree with Funny Girl...I don't see how saying something about your product is putting another down. If I said that my candles are soy and they are made from a re-newable sustainable plant how is that bashing any other candle? It would be the same thing if I said that my Paraffin candle has an awesome scent throw does that bash soy? Pointing out any "true" features and benefits of a product should be expected isn't that why we make the candles in the first place?

[topofmurrayhill]

I agree with Funny Girl...I don't see how saying something about your product is putting another down. If I said that my candles are soy and they are made from a re-newable sustainable plant how is that bashing any other candle?

It's not direct bashing. It's just implying a superiority that doesn't exist and not addressing the quality of the product. Consumers need to know what a quality product is and how to use it. What they're being taught about waxes isn't for their benefit but for the benefit of people trying to sell them something.

Oil isn't drilled to make candles. It's drilled for energy. Energy that's expended on, for instance, the factory that manufactures vegetable shortening for your candles, or the aircraft that sprays the fields, the machines that harvest the beans and the refinery where they're processed.

Paraffin is a useful by-product and there's no disadvantage to using it. It doesn't matter one little bit whether it's "renewable" or not. That's just an eco-buzzword being exploited to generate soy mystique and mislead the consumer. Salad oil is a renewable resource too, but if it came out of the ground it would be just as OK to use.

All you are doing here is repeating the slogans of the people who originally came up with the idea that veggie blends and veggie candles would be marketable and profitable. It's a chain of BS being handed down from one person to another for the purpose of making a buck on hype.

[lsbennis]

lol...Top I think we are probably never going to agree on this but I do appreciate your point of view as a lot of soy candle companies do spin these half truths about their product...that is wrong and malicious...

...However, if my product is made from a renewable resource stating that as "Fact" is not an eco-buzz word but a true statement and may very well be relavent to a lot of people who are looking to purchase renewed or recyclable products. I'm not going to be afraid to say that because someone who makes a Paraffin candle is going to get insecure and think I'm bashing them when no where in that statement is paraffin even discussed.

I also use GL 70/30 for my color candles and when asked I tell people I use 30% high quality food grade paraffin to stablize the soy and improve the scent throw. This does not make me feel insecure about the 100% soy colorless candles I make nor do I feel like I'm bashing my own candles I'm just pointing out the features and benefits of the products I make and I let the customer make their choice. First and formost quality should be the issue regardless of which wax is being used.

There is nothing wrong with pointing out "Truthfull" facts about the product you make, this should not make anyone else insecure or feel bashed. If I made 100% Paraffin I would point out the quality of the wax and how it is food grade and will burn clean because it is a quality candle and will have an awesome scent throw because that is one of the great benefits of a Paraffin candle. I personally would not feel offended by this as those are some of the great benefits to a Paraffin candle.

[topofmurrayhill]

if my product is made from a renewable resource stating that as "Fact" is not an eco-buzz word but a true statement and may very well be relavent to a lot of people who are looking to purchase renewed or recyclable products...There is nothing wrong with pointing out "Truthfull" facts about the product you make...

It's a question of where you draw the line between pointing out a real benefit versus capitalizing on a trend. There are "untruthful facts" or technicalities that can be used in dishonest ways. You seem to have good intentions and you say you're an environmentalist, so you should be able to do better than arguing that your claims are technically true. Environmentalism isn't about technicalities, but about things that really matter.

Most consumers don't know that much about environmentalism. They don't know how soy beans are cultivated, how soy wax is manufactured, or the nuances of biodiversity. But they've heard about renewable resources. When you state that, it implies much more than a technicality to them. The intention is for them to believe there's a real environmental benefit and buy the product for that reason. Otherwise nobody would mention it.

You can't actually back that up. Nobody backs it up except people who sell soy wax or soy candles. It doesn't seem very honest to me if it's just a pitch to influence a buying decision. Calling it a fact doesn't make it honest.

[lsbennis]

No offense Top but I think you are being anal about this...

First of all if I choose to take my candles to a niche market because that is where I feel most comfortable then I will use terms that are understood in that market and deliver a product to meet that need. That is not capitalizing on a trend but finding a need and meeting it. When I go shopping in the Whole Foods Market I want products that are environmentally valid and I want them to speak my language.

People in this market are looking for a product that is more then just eco friendly but also has ethical manufacturing process. How well can I meet this need and still produce a quality product that leaves as little of footprint on the environment as possible. Do I use recycled products as much as possible? How do I meet my energy needs? Do I give back to the environment with proceeds from my sales? To me and to the people in this market these issues really matter and are relevant.

Quote "You can't actually back that up. Nobody backs it up except people who sell soy wax or soy candles. It doesn't seem very honest to me if it's just a pitch to influence a buying decision. Calling it a fact doesn't make it honest."

Again I don't know where you are going with this...a soy bean will grow over and over it is a renewable resource...that is a "Fact" not a lie and I don't see how you can call this being dishonest! It is what it is!

[prairieannie]

No offense Top but I think you are being anal about this...

First of all if I choose to take my candles to a niche market because that is where I feel most comfortable then I will use terms that are understood in that market and deliver a product to meet that need. That is not capitalizing on a trend but finding a need and meeting it. When I go shopping in the Whole Foods Market I want products that are environmentally valid and I want them to speak my language.

People in this market are looking for a product that is more then just eco friendly but also has ethical manufacturing process. How well can I meet this need and still produce a quality product that leaves as little of footprint on the environment as possible. Do I use recycled products as much as possible? How do I meet my energy needs? Do I give back to the environment with proceeds from my sales? To me and to the people in this market these issues really matter and are relevant.

Quote "You can't actually back that up. Nobody backs it up except people who sell soy wax or soy candles. It doesn't seem very honest to me if it's just a pitch to influence a buying decision. Calling it a fact doesn't make it honest."

Again I don't know where you are going with this...a soy bean will grow over and over it is a renewable resource...that is a "Fact" not a lie and I don't see how you can call this being dishonest! It is what it is!

The thing is, (and Top tried to explain this) This "Fact" does not set your soy apart from paraffin. It can be applied to both types of wax, and by using it as a marketing gimmick, you are attempting to make it seem as though soy wax stands alone in this arena, which simply is not true. If you weren't using it as a gimmick, you wouldn't be using it at all, correct? I mean, why bother. It's like adding "It's White" or "It melts" to your Soy Fact Sheet!

[funnygirl]

How can the fact that soy wax is a renewable resource apply to paraffin wax also????

We were talking about whether pointing out the benifits of soy was the same thing as bashing paraffin. It's just not, and anyone who thinks that it is, well whatever. If I say I am smart it doesnt mean that I am saying everyone else is stupid. If I say I make healthy food choices and am at a healthy weight because of it, it doesnt mean that I am saying everyone else is fat.

As a soy and paraffin user I really dont understand why so many people get all wired up over this. If someone is actually stating that paraffin is bad and soy is good that is one thing. But if they are pointing out good things about soy what is the big deal? Who cares if someones opinion is that it is a marketing gimmick? How do the rich get rich? By stating that their products and services are the same as everyone elses? Im sorry, but if you say that on your label your not gonna spark alot of interest from buyers. Should a soy candle makers slogan be "Same Ole Sh*t", LOL! (Well, that might actually get peoples attention, hehehe) Come on peoples, as candle makers we really should concentrate on what we could be doing to make our products superior to store brand junk instead of arguing over supposed ethics.

Have I told you all lately that I love you! ROFLMAO!

[eugenia]

You need to learn to spell paraffin before you defend it. :smiley2:

[Vicky_CO]

Come on peoples, as candle makers we really should concentrate on what we could be doing to make our products superior to store brand junk instead of arguing over supposed ethics.

Isn't ethics one of the thing that make us stand out over the big guys that are all about the all might dollar and not necessarily about good quality candle.

[lsbennis]

The thing is, (and Top tried to explain this) This "Fact" does not set your soy apart from paraffin. It can be applied to both types of wax, and by using it as a marketing gimmick, you are attempting to make it seem as though soy wax stands alone in this arena, which simply is not true. If you weren't using it as a gimmick, you wouldn't be using it at all, correct? I mean, why bother. It's like adding "It's White" or "It melts" to your Soy Fact Sheet!

Ok...am I in the freaking twighligh zone or something!

First of all lets get one thing straight...Top didn't explain anything to me other then his own somewhat boxed in view of what I should and or should not say about my candles without being considered a liar <(sp?) with no integrity. That alone is extremly annoying this is the United States of America after all and I thought we fought and died for free speech several hundred years ago and I find this attack on my intergity somewhat alarming!

2nd...just for the record stating that soy wax is a renewable resource is not a gimmick, scam, lie, attempt to deceive the public, pull the wool over anyone's eyes or any other devious attemp to steal from the public. A plant grow and dies and grows again...it is that simple! I do not need to make up gimmicks to sell candles and to imply that is my agenda makes me seriously question your motives and character at this point!

3rd...this isn't rocket science and I'm not saying that soy wax is white and paraffin is not or that soy wax melts and paraffin doesn't and I'm surely not saying that soy is better or worse then paraffin because they both have their qualities. So I really don't understand why you would even make comments like that because in all honesty it really doesn't make any sense!

Last...NEWS FLASH...soy wax is different then paraffin just as paraffin is different then soy so why don't we just all except that fact and continue to make the best candles we can and stop bickering over semantics!

[candlebug]

Ok...am I in the freaking twighligh zone or something!

2nd...just for the record stating that soy wax is a renewable resource is not a gimmick, scam, lie, attempt to deceive the public, pull the wool over anyone's eyes or any other devious attemp to steal from the public. A plant grow and dies and grows again...it is that simple! I do not need to make up gimmicks to sell candles and to imply that is my agenda makes me seriously question your motives and character at this point! quote]

Heheh had to add my 2 cents here as I am surrounded by soybeans growing on rotational fields... a soybean plant is harvested then plowed under and the field is replanted with new seeds the next year. It is not the same plant, lol. Just letting you know.

[lsbennis]

thanks for the info Candlebug...but I do realize that it is not the same plant but the product does have the ability to generate a new genertion of plants over and over again.