464 WHEN TO ADD FO?

[thelittleflame]

One supplier tells me to add FO at 180 so that the fragrance "binds" to the wax, another supplier tells me that is WAY too high of a temp and that my candles don't throw because the fragrance has burned off, and to add FO at 140 and stir for 3 minutes...

 

I have had mixed results with both methods and I can't decide how to proceed. Could I get some feedback? Is the "burning off" theory false? is the "binding" theory false?

 

Which Witch is Which?

 

If you use 464 (or don't think it matters which wax) will you please reply so that I can get a consensus?

 

 

[Moonstar]

I also asked Candle Science that same question - they told me to add at about 180 so the wax will bind. She said the temp of the 

wax will drop when you add 1 oz or so of FO. 

[GoldieMN]

I use 464.  As soon as my wax reaches 185, I take it off the heat, and add my FO.  So it may be a tad cooler than 185, but my aim is 185.

Goldie

[thelittleflame]

And you add FO at @185 regardless of flashpoint, correct?

 (I have been told that is only on the label for shipping purposes )

 

[GoldieMN]

I never really look at flashpoint.  Pretty sure they are all around 200.

Goldie

[Jcandleattic]

Flashpoint is only the temperature point at which a fragrance will ignite if exposed to a spark or open flame in it's liquid form. Unless you are making candles around an open flame you do not have to worry about flashpoint. It is mainly needed for shipping purposes. FO's with a low flashpoint cannot be shipped air freight. 

 

Anyway, with that being said, fragrances need to be held at a high heat or on a heat source for a very long time before it will "burn off" so adding at 180-190 is perfectly acceptable regardless of type of wax you are adding it too. 

[thelittleflame]

Thank you for your input, I appreciate it very much.

[Trappeur]

I know I'm late here....but me too....I add at 180 to 185....

 

Trappeur

[Kshaler]

Do you guys get a good hot throw ? I did not I put in fo at a low temp maybe 160! I think I will try again at 180 see if it changes the throw ?

[GoldieMN]

If you are using a fragrance oil suggested on this forum as having a good hot throw with 464, you may have to change your wick size.  What wick are you using?  And container?

Goldie

 

[Moonstar]

160 is to low once you add 1 ounce of FO that 160 drops to maybe 150+ ? also the wicks i found are HUGE in HT and of course some FO just don't work

well in some waxes. Im learning as i go  I also add around 180 -185 

[Edistosmom]

I take my wax off of the heat between 175-185. I add my fragrance oil and dye chips at this point. I always have great hot and cold throw with my FO from Candlescience. ?

[Candybee]

I heat my wax to 185-190 degrees F. Next I add my dye chips first so they have a high enough heat long enough time to melt completely. If you use dye chips its important to make sure they have a high enough heat to melt and 160 - 170 is not hot enough in my experience. I also leave my pour pot on my griddle to keep the pot and wax heat stable at 185-190 while I blend in the dye.

 

I add FO last before I pour. I add it at the same temp leaving the pot on the griddle to retain temp control at 185-190 while I blend in my FO. Once its blended in I take off the griddle and place the pour pot on a heating pad and wait til it cools to a good pouring temp.

 

Stirring your FO for 2-3 minutes is old advice that was passed from chandler to chandler until it became "truth'. In my experience you stir in your dyes and FOs until you can see by watching your wax and from your personal experience when each has been blended long enough. I rarely stir either for longer than a minute each. If you carefully watch your wax as you add in your additives you can see well enough how and when they are blended into the wax. Experience is your best guide.

[KrisS]

My past experience is that if I add the FO at a temp below 180 some of the heavier/thicker oils were more difficult to fully incorporate and I had occasional seepage.   I did mix at lower temps with some of the light oils, just for grins and giggles, with acceptable results.   

 

If your oils are genuinely burning off at 180 (and it's not a wicking or wax issue), I'd find a similar FO from another supplier that will work with your typical pouring methods/temps.  That reflects poorly on the quality of FO being provided to you.

[C Dizzle]

I add at 185 as well. I haven't really tried any other temperature, but I've had great success here. I've both left the heat on and also turned it off and not sure which is better, really. I leave it on now as I want the temp to be good enough to melt dye blocks when I use those, and sometimes even in the low 180s it takes me more than 2 minutes stirring to melt those dye blocks. If I don't leave the heat on sometimes it cools to 175 or so and its harder to melt dye blocks, but that's not as relevant when I use reddig glo chips. Some do it differently, but I do FO at 185, mix 2 minutes (although its likely overkill), mix dye until its fully incorporated (usually more than 2 min for me), then UV inhibitor for a minute.

 

I haven't used too many FOs that have a low flash point, but I just started experimenting with a lemon verbena that has a flash point of 147, and I mixed it the same as I always do. It has an intense cold throw, but the hot throw is a bit less than my usual candles. I suspect I may need to use 1.5 oz rather than 1 oz, and don't feel it's burning off, but need to do more testing to be sure as I've only tested one candle. Btw that scent is AMAZING!

[Kshaler]

I am so frustrated with this ! I made two batches yesterday birthday cake and blueberry cobbler from Aztec and got almost no hot throw !  Added the fragrance oil at exactly 185 still seem to have no hot throw !  I have used both of these fragrances before with high success I am currently getting ready to go to a craft show and was trying to build up my stock and it just seems like it's not working  I have no clue what I could be doing wrong I am wondering ?

1. if because I'm not using a double boiler that could be affecting my wax (I am using 464 golden soy) ?  

2. Does it matter how you treat the wax like say if it gets a little hotter than 200 and you cool it to 185 and add the scent will it be affected because it got so hot ?

3. what about if you just  barely heat it to 185 and then add the scent ?

4. I did notice that birthday cake has a flashpoint of 195 so if it was heated to 195 or above and the scent was poured in Washington uldent it just burn off ?

 

 I noticed most the Candle tutorials at the scent at a much lower temperature than is recommended by everyone . I would be grateful for any suggestions thank you so much !

 

 

[Trappeur]

You said you made the candles yesterday and there is no hot throw today?  You mean, you burned them today after making yesterday?

 

Forget about talking about flashpoint when making candles.  The flashpoint like Candybee said is if Only the oil hits a live flame it will ignite.  Flashpoint has nothing to do with making the candle.

 

Give or take anywhere from 180 to even  190 is ok to add your oils but I would stick around the 185ish....

 

Trappeur

 

[thelittleflame]

Kshaler,

In my experience, no matter how you phrase your question, you can expect to get contradictory answers here. I have stopped asking and started making notes and here is what I have found with 464:

 

You should not be burning candles you made yesterday and making judgements based on that... let them sit at least a few days. I have read anywhere from 2 weeks and up is the cure time, but give it a few days, at least. I have settled on a week.

 

Some fragrances simply DO NOT WORK with soy, buy testers before you buy bulk, if one does not please you, move on.

 

I use 2 ounces FO per 1lb of wax, even though people have told me that they would never do that, and that more fragrance oil will lessen the throw. I have not found that to be the case and also find the idea ridiculous as well as the "pseudo-science" explanations people give for skimping on FO.

 

I use a double boiler although I purchased one of those Rival Cookers on someone's recommendation, it's a huge mess, don't do it.

 

Heat the wax in the double boiler until it melts, remove from heat, add the FO/color stir for maybe a minute, both ways, then pour. The temp will most likely range from 180 at fully melted, to 160 during stirring to 140-150 while pouring... it's all fine. Your conditions may be different, but I have found NO validity in smoother tops with a hot pour OR with a cool pour. Just heat the wax and make the candles, don't rush, don't stall, take some notes, find your groove.

 

I wouldn't abuse the wax with heating it too high, but I have had no ill effects from heating over 200 the few times that it has happened.

 

Disregard flash point, disregard people who tell you that the wax and the oil have to be at a certain temperature to bind.

 

My candles have been much better since I started using my thermometer to stir rather than gauge the temp and since I stopped taking the myriad crazy recommendations found on line.

 

Just heat, stir and pour.... just be sure you are standing on only one foot when you pour.

 

good luck!

 

 

I

[Kshaler]

18 minutes ago, thelittleflame said:

Kshaler,

In my experience, no matter how you phrase your question, you can expect to get contradictory answers here. I have stopped asking and started making notes and here is what I have found with 464:

 

You should not be burning candles you made yesterday and making judgements based on that... let them sit at least a few days. I have read anywhere from 2 weeks and up is the cure time, but give it a few days, at least. I have settled on a week.

 

Some fragrances simply DO NOT WORK with soy, buy testers before you buy bulk, if one does not please you, move on.

 

I use 2 ounces FO per 1lb of wax, even though people have told me that they would never do that, and that more fragrance oil will lessen the throw. I have not found that to be the case and also find the idea ridiculous as well as the "pseudo-science" explanations people give for skimping on FO.

 

I use a double boiler although I purchased one of those Rival Cookers on someone's recommendation, it's a huge mess, don't do it.

 

Heat the wax in the double boiler until it melts, remove from heat, add the FO/color stir for maybe a minute, both ways, then pour. The temp will most likely range from 180 at fully melted, to 160 during stirring to 140-150 while pouring... it's all fine. Your conditions may be different, but I have found NO validity in smoother tops with a hot pour OR with a cool pour. Just heat the wax and make the candles, don't rush, don't stall, take some notes, find your groove.

 

I wouldn't abuse the wax with heating it too high, but I have had no ill effects from heating over 200 the few times that it has happened.

 

Disregard flash point, disregard people who tell you that the wax and the oil have to be at a certain temperature to bind.

 

My candles have been much better since I started using my thermometer to stir rather than gauge the temp and since I stopped taking the myriad crazy recommendations found on line.

 

Just heat, stir and pour.... just be sure you are standing on only one foot when you pour.

 

good luck!

 

 

I

 

[Kshaler]

Thank you Trappeur and The little flame I appreciate all sugestions and am aware you are supposed to let them set but have tested that and every time I don't have a hot throw it n the beginning I have yet to see one develop later (granted we have only been at it for almost a year )!  Not saying I won't keep theese and try again later  going to go do some Parafin it should give me a better throw !

[Siren12]

Have you given any candles to friends to test for you? sometimes i have trouble smelling my candles because I have gone nose blind. 

[TallTayl]

1 hour ago, Kshaler said:

I am so frustrated with this ! I made two batches yesterday birthday cake and blueberry cobbler from Aztec and got almost no hot throw !  Added the fragrance oil at exactly 185 still seem to have no hot throw !  I have used both of these fragrances before with high success I am currently getting ready to go to a craft show and was trying to build up my stock and it just seems like it's not working  I have no clue what I could be doing wrong I am wondering ?

1. if because I'm not using a double boiler that could be affecting my wax (I am using 464 golden soy) ?  

2. Does it matter how you treat the wax like say if it gets a little hotter than 200 and you cool it to 185 and add the scent will it be affected because it got so hot ?

3. what about if you just  barely heat it to 185 and then add the scent ?

4. I did notice that birthday cake has a flashpoint of 195 so if it was heated to 195 or above and the scent was poured in Washington uldent it just burn off ?

 

 I noticed most the Candle tutorials at the scent at a much lower temperature than is recommended by everyone . I would be grateful for any suggestions thank you so much !

 

 

Some fragrances (like heavy vanillas, bakery notes, etc) require slightly warmer temps to fully dissolve into suspension.   If the wax is too cool when adding fragrance it is possible for the heavier / more dense FO to sink as it cools since it is not fully emulsified. "Binding" is what I interpret as being able to remain emulsified/in suspension the entire time as the blend cools.

 

Odd as this sounds, when my wax is too cool at the point of adding the FO, I can smell the soy more than the fragrance in the finished candle. A few degrees warmer when introducing the FO to the wax and I smell the fragrance and not the soy. Temps do change how the other additives behave in the blend.

 

If FO disappeared quickly at regular pouring temps it would not be great in finished candles since the first time the melt pool was created all of the scent would "disappear".

 

what wick, container combo are you using? Color?

it is not uncommon with soy to have little to no throw so soon after making the candle. Have you tried scooping some of your dud candle into a wax warmer and smelling to see if scent is released? If you smell it in the warmer, but not the candle IME the wick choice is often the issue.

[GoldieMN]

I think you have gotten a pretty consistent response to the original question, haven't you?  

Goldie

[Kshaler]

4 hours ago, Siren12 said:

Have you given any candles to friends to test for you? sometimes i have trouble smelling my candles because I have gone nose blind. 

Yes it have testers she is the one who told me there was no smell . 

[Kshaler]

TallTayl  I am using small containers largest is approx 10 oz apothecary about 4 in dia  and smallest 3in dia 2 oz med ( for me anyway ) is 4oz 3 in dia I am using  6" LX 18 for my soy candles most of my candles are warm heavy scents ! In the Blueberry  Cobbler their is blue dye blocks from CS and in the Birthday Cake one I leave it natural color. Thank you for taking the time to explain about your awnsers it will very much help me when trying to investigate my issues . I will try a little higher temp with them see if it helps ?