Wooden Wick Co at it again... lol

[ErronB]

They are now putting it out there on video that you need to pay attention to the flashpoint of a fragrance oil to determine when to add it to wax, and it's supposedly true because their fragrance manufacturer who has 25 years experience said so...

 

 

 

[KrisS]

Hmm.  That leaves me with the desire to check which fragrance manufacturer has been in business for 25 years vs significantly  more or less time...or making a post about it so others with  more ambition look and I benefit from their efforts in knowing.

[TallTayl]

So by that logic all of those fragrances with flash points of over 200 mean  people should be heating their waxed over 200? Question everything.

[NightLight]

That’s like Candle Science saying they have changed all their fragrances so you can promote them as clean scents. I am not a fan of either one of these companies.  They are just trying to market and keep their customers or attract.

[candleshiba]

3 hours ago, NightLight said:

That’s like Candle Science saying they have changed all their fragrances so you can promote them as clean scents. I am not a fan of either one of these companies.  They are just trying to market and keep their customers or attract.

 

Aha, I saw the new collection by CS. Seemed like pretty smart marketing imo, it's all about marketing!

[birdcharm]

So, are these two companies related? ...Candle Science and Just Scents ...?  If not, one of them has certainly copied the other on this subject of flashpoint.  Anyway, there's so much bad information out there, esp. on youtube, that it's mind boggling, you've always got to check things out to make sure the "expert" who presented something really knew what they were doing.  (Oh, and if they're wearing a lab coat, bib, overalls, etc., check them out even more!!)

 

 

[Kerven]

The "add FO at X temp based on flashpoint" has been around for a long time. I forgot where I first learned it - Peak's other site with all the guides... or maybe it was something on Nature's Garden. Oddly enough, even though there was no proof or convincing reasoning supporting the practice, it helped me avoid problems (adhesion, cauliflower tops, frosting, throw) with the old (pre soy-pocalypse) 464. Well, it seemed to help. I was new to candlemaking at the time and didn't take precise notes so it could have been something I did (pouring hotter/colder, FO mismeasured, cooling conditions, etc.). Haven't gone back to that method since the majority said it was pointless and I started doing hot pours anyway.

 

Nature's Garden Candles

 

Perhaps, with temperamental waxes and fragrances the method might provide some benefit, but not what was stated in the vid, IMO.

 

Edit: Then again... now that this topic is back, I have the nagging voice in my head trying to convince me that volatile, lighter fragrance components are more prone to rapidly fading away when not bound in some way, especially so when exposed to heat. I guess it's time to venture over to the perfuming forums and fall down a few rabbit holes.

Edited July 25, 2020 by Kerven

[Kevin Fischer]

Yeah - frustrating that they won't follow up with critics in the comments.  (source: am one of the critics in comments) 🤣

[birdcharm]

What do they mean when they say it's important to "never heat your fragrance beyond that temperature" (flashpoint), that would mean that some f/o's with a low flashpoint shouldn't even be used to make a candle.

 

3 hours ago, Kevin Fischer said:

Yeah - frustrating that they won't follow up with critics in the comments.  (source: am one of the critics in comments) 🤣

 

 I don't think they understood your question. 

("How do those vapors escape when they're mixed into another medium (melted wax, for instance)?")

[Kevin Fischer]

8 hours ago, birdcharm said:

What do they mean when they say it's important to "never heat your fragrance beyond that temperature" (flashpoint), that would mean that some f/o's with a low flashpoint shouldn't even be used to make a candle.

 

 

 I don't think they understood your question. 

("How do those vapors escape when they're mixed into another medium (melted wax, for instance)?")

 

If you took the fragrance oil by itself and just cooked it at the flash point, it would indeed start giving off vapor that would harmlessly become a gas unless you lit it with a match.

 

But, if you took your room temperature FO and mix it with liquid wax (which is much warmer), does the FO behave the same way as if it was by itself?  I'm not a chemist, but I think the answer is most certainly no.  The FO + wax is a new fluid with properties of its own, including an effective flash point much higher than our candle making range.  My question was a dumb-but-honest attempt to have them explain a little more of the apparent pseudo-science.  If you took fragrance oil that was giving off vapor and drowned it deep in the ocean, would those vapors even go anywhere, or would they be trapped in water?

[TallTayl]

5 hours ago, Kevin Fischer said:

 

If you took the fragrance oil by itself and just cooked it at the flash point, it would indeed start giving off vapor that would harmlessly become a gas unless you lit it with a match.

 

But, if you took your room temperature FO and mix it with liquid wax (which is much warmer), does the FO behave the same way as if it was by itself?  I'm not a chemist, but I think the answer is most certainly no.  The FO + wax is a new fluid with properties of its own, including an effective flash point much higher than our candle making range.  My question was a dumb-but-honest attempt to have them explain a little more of the apparent pseudo-science.  If you took fragrance oil that was giving off vapor and drowned it deep in the ocean, would those vapors even go anywhere, or would they be trapped in water?

When two liquids of different flash points blend, it does indeed change the flash point of the entire blend. This is why a fragrance or essential oil in wax or oil does not turn into a fireball when a lit wick is in it. 
 

if you stick a wick in a container of pure FO it will likely ignite. 
 

One of my favorite EO’s has a flash point of 113*F.  When making candles of any wax from coconut to soy to beeswax to palm the scent is nice and strong despite adding to wax heated as high as 200*F (palm). 

[StandleyHandcrafted]

I tried to ask the question about flashpoints in the chemistry sub on Reddit but didn't get an answer. I would love to get a real educated response to flashpoints and adding to wax.
 

[TallTayl]

A fast way to raise a flashpoint of an oil is to add another oil to it. Flashpoint is only a concern when shipping. 
 

flashing off of volatile aromatics may be a different discussion.  This is the phenomenon on vanilla extract being added at the end of a cook.  Vanilla is extracted using an alcohol, which vaporizes quickly. 

[birdcharm]

5 hours ago, StandleyHandcrafted said:

I tried to ask the question about flashpoints in the chemistry sub on Reddit but didn't get an answer. I would love to get a real educated response to flashpoints and adding to wax.
 

 

How would the flashpoint be figured out of the entire melting pot after the scent is added to the wax?  It seems that the high f/p of the wax will more than compensate for any lower f/p of fragrance oil at 6-10% added to it ... wouldn't it?

[Kevin Fischer]

For sure.  At that point we're probably discussing the effective volumes and a weird level of thermodynamic interpolation.  Even if we answered it perfectly, it doesn't matter because flash points are irrelevant for candle making processes.

 

Flashing off aromatic compounds is part of why wick sizing ends up being important (among other reasons) for generating a flame that works in harmony with the melt pool.  An entirely different discussion of it's own.

[TallTayl]

35 minutes ago, birdcharm said:

 

How would the flashpoint be figured out of the entire melting pot after the scent is added to the wax?  It seems that the high f/p of the wax will more than compensate for any lower f/p of fragrance oil at 6-10% added to it ... wouldn't it?

Exactly. There is a rather complicated formula to calculate it, but the math is far more than I want to think about.  6-10% of FO in a wax changes the FP of the FO to no longer be relevant. The wax traps much of the volatile component that would otherwise be vapor.  If FO were not raised by the wax to a level that exceeded DOT requirements we would not be permitted to ship candles as casually as we do. 

[birdcharm]

I think this is really annoying ... lol, the more I think of it, the more annoying it gets.  I mean, okay, just how many melting pots have you heard of blowing up when scented oil was added to it?  I've been reading candle boards for quite a while now, and I never once heard of this happening.

[TallTayl]

19 minutes ago, birdcharm said:

I think this is really annoying ... lol, the more I think of it, the more annoying it gets.  I mean, okay, just how many melting pots have you heard of blowing up when scented oil was added to it?  I've been reading candle boards for quite a while now, and I never once heard of this happening.

Ding ding we have a winner. 🤗

 

Even soaking those really low flashpoint oils in salt change that flashpoint. Flashpoint is about vapors igniting.

[TallTayl]

Come to think of it, I do remember a fragrance I think it was grandma’s swingin eggnog that had a flashpoint that seemed to be barely above room temperature. If you were smoking or working near a gas stove the vapors could easily ignite. But generally speaking those aren’t even available to buy anymore.

[Kerven]

FP is ~85F for the 'nog FO. Found a 1oz sampler stashed away. I had a citrus FO once with a FP around 90F. Might have been from Peak too.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Kerven

[TallTayl]

53 minutes ago, Kerven said:

FP is ~85F for the 'nog FO. Found a 1oz sampler stashed away. I had a citrus FO once with a FP around 90F. Might have been from Peak too.

Can you imagine trying to add a fragrance with a FP of 85 *F to wax? Yet it worked in wax when added as usual for many years before the “add at FP” notion began. 

[Kerven]

It's probably why I didn't use it - fear that someone would light a candle, strike a match, or spark a lighter while there were still vapors in the air. Not so much that I'd burn my eyebrows off with a melting pot turned flame thrower.

I think the FP method might draw a little from boiling point and vapor pressure, but those numbers aren't as readily available as FP. I can see how there could be concern about volatile notes rapidly evaporating at a high temp and large surface area. You've got increased heat, wider surface area in the melting pot, possibly reduced surface tension (big brand candles use additives in their waxes to alter melt pool surface tension and improve throw; manufacturers of "boutique" waxes might add them as well), reduced viscosity, agitation, convection, and no fixative or other throttling agent other than the wax itself, when compared to a solid candle. There's no alcohol to carry the notes, but that doesn't mean they can't escape, moreso when given favorable conditions. But that's me conjecturing again.

Wax bursting into flames? Nope. It's very rare to see a melt pool catch fire, IME. And that's usually due to neglect or serious flaws in candle structure/composition. The only danger with low FP is when there's a source of ignition near the pure FO and its concentrated vapors. We don't see reed diffusers causing fireballs.

 

Edit: I think there may be a connection between temps and FO binding, mostly having to do with crystal formation. Different crystals form at different temps, blah, blah, blah. Crystalline phases, intermolecular bonding, solvents, kinetic energy... Too complicated for a hobbyist like me. Sticking to the tried and true methods.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Kerven

[Marisa11]

Thank you for posting this. I commented right away when I saw this video and they got back with me. I understand they are talking about their own FO's but it's misleading and just adding more confusion. When I spoke with the manufacturer of my wax the rep said not to pour in any FO below 160 and there was no need to heat my wax past 200 degrees.  I think I have another one that is 140 FP. 

 

Marisa Fallon1 week ago

So should you put a cautionary note on this saying that your waxes do best with an FO above a certain FP if this is what you are claiming? It worries me that people might think that they may need to mix an oil with a lower flashpoint at a low wax temp causing the FO to not bind properly to the wax and cause a fire hazard. I have an FO that has a 158 degree FP but I wouldn’t mix that in my coco apricot at that temp. That would be a fire hazard. I would also be interested in seeing what your chemists would say. Thanks for the information.

 

 

REPLY

 

 

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The Wooden Wick Co.

1 week ago

Hi Marisa! The flashpoint only becomes a fire hazard when the oil is exposed to an open flame at that temperature. We've just found that the oils can degrade in composition when added at a temp beyond their flashpoint. Most all of our fragrance oils have a FP above 200F. We've also tested pouring the coconut waxes at a lower temperature for the small amount of low FP fragrances, and have not had any issues with fragrance absorption or performance. Thank you kindly!

[Kevin Fischer]

On 7/30/2020 at 2:21 PM, Kerven said:

I think the FP method might draw a little from boiling point and vapor pressure, but those numbers aren't as readily available as FP.

 

I'd pay to see boiling points on the fragrance oils.  I mean, I can do it myself but that's so much work.  General volatility is tied up to the boiling point.  I just don't know how complex fragrance oils are compared to essential oils that potentially contain hundreds of different compounds that evaporate at different rates.

 

Essential oils suffer in the performance category mostly because of their volatility in the presence of candle making temperature ranges, but they also degrade from light and heat.

 

Just go really interested in the EO/FO volatility discussion as things went along.  No need to hijack this thread any further!

[StandleyHandcrafted]

On 7/27/2020 at 10:46 AM, TallTayl said:

 Flashpoint is only a concern when shipping. 
 

flashing off of volatile aromatics may be a different discussion.  

 

Exactly. 

 

That's the idea I was going for on the sub reddit. I wanted to know if there was anything to adding these compounds at higher or lower temps. 
As for their video I disagree completely.