How hot is too hot (container)

[Lori]

Hello,

I'm wondering if anyone knows how hot a glass candle container should actually get after being lit for 3-4 hours. It's about 3/4 of the way down and seems very hot. I purchased a similar candle which I'm using as my control candle, and notice that even though my wick seems to be performing well, the glass on my candle is significantly hotter than the control candle (which I believe they're using a cotton core wick). I'm using a CD10 wick in Naturewax C3 and the candle is about 2.75 inches wide. 

Thanks!!

 

[GoldieMN]

Are you saying after burning for 3-4 hours the candle is 3/4 gone?  

Goldie

[Lori]

No, just by the time my burn gets down to 3/4, it seems to be much hotter. I'm doing the suggested 3-4 hour burn test. I'm wondering if it's just the CD wick, or if it's too big. The control candle seems to burn so well, the burn pool happens faster than mine, but when you touch the container/glass, it's not as hot. Very confusing! Does this make sense?

[Candybee]

CD wicks typically burn hot. I loved the way the wick burns but made the decision to go with another wick for the same reason. The glass container would get too hot and I was always afraid if a customer power burns the candle and complain about the hot glass.

 

You could try a smaller wick. Since you have only burned your test candle 3/4 and seeing its too hot I would try a smaller wick. After all, you are wicking for the last half of the candle as that is when the candle will get the hottest and the flame will flicker as it searches for more oxygen.

[Lori]

I had a feeling it was a hot wick. I have tried so many options, the only one I haven't tried was a cotton core. Have you had any success with that wick? I have been doing this for months and am getting slightly frustrated—just when I thought I had it working!

[Candybee]

I ended up custom blending my own parasoy and used zincs. Zincs burn cool but tend to mushroom. With wicks it can be a tradeoff. But there are many new wicks I have not tried since I used to make parasoy candles. Now I use container palm with CSNs from CS.

 

I would either try a smaller wick size or start testing another series of wicks. I don't remember if I used cotton core. I know I tried LX and loved the way they burned but they gave no absolutely no hot throw. The zincs gave me the best hot throw out of any wick I tried including CDs so I went with them. But I had to embrace the mushrooms and just told my customers to trim their wicks before each burn.

 

If it helps, Fillmore Container used to sell C3 wax exclusively and specialized in wicks and FOs just for that wax. They carry Premier and HTP wicks. If you are looking for another wick series to try one of those might be worth a shot. You can also call them and ask for a sample wick to try.

[kandlekrazy]

CD's in C3 I always had to wick down due to hot glass and then it wouldn't clean the sides like I wanted so I switched to cotton core.  It could just be

the size of my container 3.12" and using 1 wick.

[Lori]

Thank you so much for your feedback. I started making candles at the beginning of the year, and just found this site! It would have been a great resource while on the hunt for what would work. I will definitely call Fillmore Candle. kandlekrazy, I will definitely try the cotton core as well, I see a lot of people mentioning having success with that wick. Do you use the recommended size? or do you up it?

[TallTayl]

As tempting as it is to wick for fast, early melt pools, always wick for the last 1/3 of the burn.

 

Wick selection is frustrating with natural waxes like soy and beeswax because they change so much over time. What seems a hot wick within the first couple of weeks may end up just fine months later as the candle has aged. I guess this is why we all are reminded to test, then test again

 

For reference, The recommended max temp for a container by ASTM is about 170*F. If you search ASTM here and Google you'll find some good (and some heated) debates. There's a good slide show floating around that shows things ASTM tests for, like flammability of candle coatings, containers and holders at an angle, thermal shock,etc. 

 

 

[TallTayl]

1 hour ago, kandlekrazy said:

CD's in C3 I always had to wick down due to hot glass and then it wouldn't clean the sides like I wanted so I switched to cotton core.  It could just be

the size of my container 3.12" and using 1 wick.

With your cotton core, do you find the wicks ever begin to slump in the MP during the burn? I had that trouble with square braid primed with high MP wax. Such a pity because cotton burns my wax so well.

[Moonstar]

TallTayl  I am amazed at the wealth of information you have - impressive to say the least. Now I have to Google to see what the heck ASTM is LMAO ! 

This is the first time Ive heard that . Thanks so much for sharing ! Im eager to test my new waxes + samples of wicks I ordered. I had intensions of doing 

so last week but life can be challenging tending to the needs of my sons disability - which is moderate -severe  I have samples of GB464 + GB415 

i have Premiere wicks - CD + CDN's + using the 8oz mason jars from CS .... If any has some input of what size or wick to try first - Im all ears lol ! 

Hope everyone had a great holiday weekend - looks like summer is here. My rose bushes overnight have gotten buds + my hydrangeas are starting to bloom  

[kandlekrazy]

22 hours ago, TallTayl said:

With your cotton core, do you find the wicks ever begin to slump in the MP during the burn? I had that trouble with square braid primed with high MP wax. Such a pity because cotton burns my wax so well.

The only scents I had trouble with were heavy vanilla or heavy citrus and I ended up going to a 62C in those scents.  I was at my mom's yesterday and she had a Twigs & Berries of mine that was about 2/3 gone and I was shocked there was no soot at all, I almost always get a little soot when it gets that low.  I think the soot bothers me more than anything else but I know it's more than just the wick causing it.

[Chefmom]

While using a purchased candle as your "control" might seem like a good idea, the issue is you have no idea of the wax, fragrance or wick to even try to compare your made candle with it.  An overall comparison for burning and scent throw with a commercial product is one thing, but some commercial candles aren't very quality...which is one thing that led me to make my own candles.

 

I also wick my containers to burn for the bottom, the very first test I do is a partially poured container, between 1/3 and 1/2 full.  I pour several different kinds of wicks and usually about 12 containers.  No scent or color, I just want to see what wick series seems to work best with the wax.  Burns are made, notes are taken etc.  Then the winning wicks get poured into partially filled containers with scent and color and the test is then repeated.  Winning combos will include not only scent throw but how the wick does in the lower part of the jar/container and which ever stands out to me will get poured into a full container and then tested top to bottom.  As for the glass getting hot, I don't take surface temps or anything but do a basic "pick it up and feel it" to the glass.  If I can pick it up and hold it, it's cool.  If I can pick it up, but need to put it down its still acceptable.  Only if I can't pick it up at all do I consider it too hot.  What that means in actual temps I'm not sure, it's just the scale I have used for myself. 

 

My tests tend to be more tedious than some, but I do like getting to know every component of my set up and it makes troubleshooting easier when you have good notes and tests to fall back on.

[Lori]

Thanks Chefmom for your feedback, it's very helpful. I purchased a hand poured soy candle that I think performs well and thought it could act as a guide. I realize it's like trying to recreate a recipe, which is next to impossible, just wanted something to compare my candle to. I appreciate your testing procedure and will consider adopting some of your techniques! Thanks!

 

[chuck_35550]

We all feel your pain Lori. There are so many variables in the hand crafted industry. I start by trying to stay with a straight sided container with a standard diameter made of top quality glass and specifically designed for candles. Industrial candles tend to be in Sherman tank containers or double wicked. My process is to pour several containers without wicks and then make a hole and test multiple wicks. When I get a bingo on a set up, then I pour it for real and begin testing. I always test with fo and color. Each variable changes the outcome. Everyone does it their way that works for them. If your spiderman sense tells you its too hot, well wick down or double. You'll get there eventually and know your wax inside and out. Knowing the limitations of your wax is the key to success.

[wthomas57]

Lori,

I've done so much expensive wick testing and still going back and forth with preferences and testing. But here is a quick few details on what I've noticed with some mainstreem wicks.

 

CD - good looking flame, but gets too damn hot. So, if I cant wick down and still keep a good melt pool that reaches the edges... then I just pass on these. The problem is, even if I do wick down.. customers power burn and inevitably the wick STILL gets too large and burns too hot with these most of the time.

 

Cotton Core - I cant get good enough melt pools with these to be hoenst. I am using parasoy mostly so so our results could differ. But for the heat and high flame, I want to be getting a better burn as a tradeoff. That being said, I think these flames look the best. But they are also flemsy wicks and do not stay centered as well.

 

HTP - good burn, , minimal mushrooming, but flame burns kinda crazy for me sometimes and also gets really hot for me. I also have a hard time with sizing on these and in the past they discolored my wax a bit. Same with the CDs occasionally.

 

ECO - Blah, not even going to comment. Just skip these, lol.

 

LX - had hard time with sizing and wick pools

 

Premiers - Rigid (which i always like), LOTS of incremental sizing so finding the right size is possible every time with these, just test. These also seem to burn real well and have a nice looking flame. Dont get too hot either. But they tend to mushroom similar to zincs. Maybe not quite as much. I still haven't been able to really get a good feel on scent throw though, so stil working that out.

 

Zincs - These are STILL my go to wick.The majority of my candles are made with this wick for a couple reasons. Wick stays centered all the time. Great scent throw, Good melt pool, cooler burn so glass rarely gets "too hot". The only complaint I have with these is the mushrooming but at this point that has been an acceptable trade off most of the time. I do fear customers see a metal core wick and might freak out and no longer be interested. But so far, that hasn't actually been a problem ( at least not mentioned to me anyway).

 

Now keep in mind you are using soy, I am using a blend so take all of this with a grain of salt.

Can I offer a possible suggestion? If you are struggling to the point of frustration, before you give up... try a different wax. It can make ALL the difference. Some waxes are much easier to wick than others. And some Soy waxes can be VERY temperamental.

 

Finally, I used to care a ton about proper looking melt pool. In other words.. I wanted complete melt pool all the way across 1/4" deep after 3 or 4 hours. (or 1 hour for each inch in diamter like you always read).  Honestly, I think thats a bit of a misnomer. The key is making sure you have a descent melt pool, but good scent through and make sure your wick is burning well and that your wax does melt completely, but not necessarily quickly or first burn. 9 times out of 10 the edges will catch up if its minimal. I was constantly trying to accomplish the former and was causing me to wick too large every time. I stopped caring about that, wicked down a notch and its been great ever since. Remember, the further down your candle burns, the containers will keep heat in and make wax burn more evenly than it does at the top. I second what others recommended about filling half way to do a burn test. That will give you a better idea of overall performance and give you a better idea of what wicks and sizing to use to avoid excess heat. 

 

I know I didn't give an overall 100% recommendation, because its difficult even for those of us who have tested a significant amount. I still try and find better wicks to use all of the time. Make a list of what aspects are most important to you. Then do a pros and cons and go from there. You wont find a perfect one unfortunately.

 

Hope this helps.

Edited June 24, 2016 by wthomas57

[Lori]

Thanks so much for your feedback, very helpful. I'm finding that the HTP seem to work best for me, but will keep these thoughts/recommendations for future wicking issues! 

[Laura C]

On 5/31/2016 at 9:12 AM, Lori said:

...I have been doing this for months and am getting slightly frustrated—just when I thought I had it working!

 

Don't worry, you're not the only one, LOL.

[Laura C]

On 6/2/2016 at 3:12 PM, Chefmom said:

As for the glass getting hot, I don't take surface temps or anything but do a basic "pick it up and feel it" to the glass.  If I can pick it up and hold it, it's cool.  If I can pick it up, but need to put it down its still acceptable.  Only if I can't pick it up at all do I consider it too hot.  What that means in actual temps I'm not sure, it's just the scale I have used for myself.

 

I too have been going by touch and my gut feeling on the jar temps like @Chefmom. And I think I will continue to do that but at least now with an infrared thermometer I should be able to check the jar temps and get an idea of the temp range I feel comfortable with. 🔺  Oh, yes, I need to try that. LOL 

 

@Lori, if you have an infrared thermometer, try it and see what temps you get.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Laura C