Trying to Single Wick a 4" apothecary with cd wicks in cb 135...

[Eden Sass]

I've mastered the tarts and my 5oz apothecaries, and am trying to master my 16oz's. I started way to small... cd 16s in cb135, with 1.25oz pp of cranberry marmalade from cs & 1 cranberry dye chip. Before I waste away more wicks (as I did testing all my 5oz jars!!) can someone tell me if I should continue trying to single wick this size or if I am better off double wicking it with cd 12s or 14s? (I'm a little nervous to get into the double wicking!!)

Not to push my luck for info (I have already spent well over an hour trying to search for an answer, and my baby has had enough time with his daddy!), I have also noticed some really funky swirly/crystally thingys happening on the top of my candles... is this from the temp I am pouring at? I don't have a heat gun yet, but my hairdryer doesn't seem to fix the problem. I add fragrance and dye at 180, and poured at 125. Set to cool on a rack, with a box overtop. Doesn't happen with all my scent/colour combos. The sides of my testers are absolutely beautiful, just some funky tops. I refuse to return to the beautifully topped cba because I had so much trouble finding the 'right' fragrances for ht.

Thanks for anyone who can help! (I will also accept the 'test yourself' responses... just hoping someone is in a giving mood haha)

Jan

[idacandlelady]

In my experience, it is very hard to single wick a 4" apoth jar. I tried a few different scents and had no luck. I however am not a super patient person, along with having cabinets full of FO's calling my name, so I couldn't justify the "keep trying" right now. I finally resorted to double wicking my 4" apoth. I don't use the same wax as you but I do use soy. As for the double wicking with CD wicks, I don't use CD's but I am currently switching over to CDN's, I think the 12-14 range is where I would start.

Hope this helps a little.

[Eden Sass]

idacandlelady (great name) .. it certainly does help.. I'm just worried about getting the placement right for double wicking. I like the natural little circles that are at the bottom of my jars in the center!!! My girlfriend is good at math.. I will try to get her to figure out where they should be placed. I'll have to do some more searching here, but do you place them equally spread out between the sides of the jar and each other (basically cut the jar into 4ths and put the wicks in the middle ?)

I appreciate your reply!!!

Jan

[idacandlelady]

I have a wick centering tool. But It shouldn't be too difficult if you are only doing testers. I have heard people talk about making a template on paper, like a bulls eye, so you can set your jar on it to get a center point. I space wicks @1" apart, at the bottom. So if you put the tabs right next to each other, edges touching , that should be about right. Then at the top I have my wick holders holes spaced about 1 1/4". This works well for me, but you'll have to try different ways to see what you like best.

If you are planning to make a lot at a time I would invest in a wick centering tool. It saves time.

Glad I could help a little.

BTW: if you space them where they are too close to the glass your jar will get way too hot. That is why I space at 1".

[Eden Sass]

I will certainly try your suggestion.

Thank you so much!

jan

[Stella1952]

ES, to single wick a 4" apothecary with CDs, I'd start with a 20-22 (the 12-14 range is for 3" containers ). The 20 may be enough or you may have to step up to a 22, depending, but I sure don't think you'll be going down in size from a 20. You have to burn the testers all the way down to see if they will have clean sides without the container becoming too hot. It's not unusual for it to take several 4 hour test burns to achieve a full melt pool and many marathon burns to test to the bottom.

It takes a CDN 22 to work out well in the 4" jar (not an apothecary style) with the soy-based formula I tested -

http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61817&page=3

- the 20 didn't clean the sides quite well enough for my tastes, although there was no significant hangup. For a candle this size, I sure would suggest using a treated wick... The apothecary, however, has "shoulders" and might retain more heat in it with a 20 than in the straight, slightly tapered jar I used. Give it a whirl!

The swirlies on top are certainly a product of your pouring or cooling temps, but I don't use your wax so I dunno what to suggest other than to search the threads here for clues.

Good luck and hug that baby! They are so sweet at that age!

[AntoniasCreations]

I've mastered the tarts and my 5oz apothecaries, and am trying to master my 16oz's. I started way to small... cd 16s in cb135, with 1.25oz pp of cranberry marmalade from cs & 1 cranberry dye chip. Before I waste away more wicks (as I did testing all my 5oz jars!!) can someone tell me if I should continue trying to single wick this size or if I am better off double wicking it with cd 12s or 14s? (I'm a little nervous to get into the double wicking!!)

Not to push my luck for info (I have already spent well over an hour trying to search for an answer, and my baby has had enough time with his daddy!), I have also noticed some really funky swirly/crystally thingys happening on the top of my candles... is this from the temp I am pouring at? I don't have a heat gun yet, but my hairdryer doesn't seem to fix the problem. I add fragrance and dye at 180, and poured at 125. Set to cool on a rack, with a box overtop. Doesn't happen with all my scent/colour combos. The sides of my testers are absolutely beautiful, just some funky tops. I refuse to return to the beautifully topped cba because I had so much trouble finding the 'right' fragrances for ht.

Thanks for anyone who can help! (I will also accept the 'test yourself' responses... just hoping someone is in a giving mood haha)

Jan

This is all I have been doing for the past couple of weeks but my jars are 10 oz w/ 4" diam. And while I was hoping that I would be able to single wick these jars it is just not happening for me. I have use the cd and the cdn wicks from 16 to 22, tried adding coconut oil to see if it would help it burn, tried taking out the dye but it is just not working for me. And I am burning all the way down and I still get about 1/4 to 1/2 inch hang up all the way around.

So I just got some new wicks, again, and I will be trying the double wicking next week. If you email me through my profile I can send you the template someone on here sent to me and I will plug the thread in here that says how they use it, just have to go back and find it first.

edit: ok found the thread, here it is http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68334

I will be testing 2 cd 12 and 2 cd 14 to see which one I like the best, hope it is atleast one of them and not me having to order more wicks:rolleyes2

And just to let you know the coconut oil has really helped with my tops looking a lot better. If you do a search for coconut oil a lot of threads should pop up for it with some great info. HTH

And I know how hard it is to read through a bunch of old threads when you have a baby, mine will be 1 on the 19 of this month, so I would say do a search and then read a few and stop for a few to play with baby, then come back for a few more later. And I like to do my power searches during nap time, I am a sahm sorry dont know if you can do that too. Good luck with all this testing

[Eden Sass]

Thank you all so much for your helpful replies. I'll try upping a single wick to 20,22, and if I'm still not happy I'll try the double wicking thing.

My wee one (jacob) will be 1yr on Apr.19th, Antoniascreations! 1 month apart! I am a SAHM too - for less than 1 more month. April 3 is going to bring a lot of tears... think I'm gonna go give him a hug right now!!

thanks again everyone,

jan

[Scenicdriver]

Eden,

I use CB135 and have never met a 4" that I could single wick. Been at this for several years and have done test after test :undecided

If you successfully single wick this let me know, k? I have always felt that single wicking that large of a jar (if you can) resulted in a weaker throw.

Keep in touch.

[Eden Sass]

scenic,

I was wondering the same thing (about the throw)... I'll be sure to let you know. I'm switching the wick in one I had started to burn as we speak!

[Scenicdriver]

Thanks Eden. Can't wait to see the results

[8-GRAN-ONES]

I also use 4" jars....I have been making candles for about

1 1/2 yrs...

But I also have only had luck using 2 wicks...I only use CD Wicks.

I range in size from 12's to 16's..depending on the FO..HTH some.

But I don't use the same type of Wax...I use GB 415..

[Aimee81]

I have tried HTP wicks and CD wicks in my 4 inch diameter apothecary jars single wick and have not had success. I was really hoping to single wick but will have to go back to my ECO 6 double wick. I use Ecosoya CB 135 and mostly CS or NG fragrance oils. The only thing I am not happy with is my ECO's mushroom bad so I have to blow the wick out and trim off the muhsroom and then relight. Would love to find a wick that didn't do this. But the melting pool and throw to me are great! I use a wick setter from Candlescience that cost $30 and it works great to center my 2 wicks in the jars.

Edited December 10, 2011 by Aimee81

[Stella1952]

I have tried HTP wicks and CD wicks in my 4 inch diameter apothecary jars single wick and have not had success.

What size CD wicks did you try? CDNs work fine for me...

[Pam W]

The only thing I am not happy with is my ECO's mushroom bad so I have to blow the wick out and trim off the muhsroom and then relight.

I use Ecos in my paraffin candles and never get 'shrooms except when the FO load is too high.

[Aimee81]

CD 20 and CD 22

[Stella1952]

What was "unsuccessful" about the CD 20-22? No HT? Leaving hangup at the end of the container?

Try a 24 if CD 22 seems to small.

Edited December 12, 2011 by Stella1952

[Aimee81]

HTP 1212 and 1213 I think they were didn't give a full melting pool. Either did CD 20 or CD 22. The CD's did have a mushroom a lot faster than I am use t. Perhaps a CD 24 like you said. Tried with different oils at 9% for both test candles and yet to acheive a fmp like my 2 ECO 6's give.

[Stella1952]

CD 20 or CD 22.... didn't give a full melting pool

Did you test burn the candles all the way to the end? Did you never get a FMP (ie still hangup on the container at the end) or just during the initial several burns? It is absolutely normal for a wide soy candle to not develop a FMP on the 1st or even 2nd test burn... This should not diminish the throw and the sides "catch up" later on in the burn as the container heats up.

Tried with different oils at 9%

While NGI says that CB 135 will hold a max. load of 12%, one does not have to use that much. Even 9% is going to work the wick a lot harder to burn that FO cleanly without mushrooming.

Here's NGI's handling instructions for CB 135:

http://www.ngiwax.com/products/usingecosoya/cb135instructions.html

[Aimee81]

Thank you Stella for that helpful information. To be honest, I must need to be trained all over again on the performance of a candle because for 2 years my Mom has made our candles and I have been so use to our 2 wicked ECO 8's (I switched from 8 to 6 size because of too much soot and mushrooms when she left the business) giving a fmp after about 3 hours and the jar was completely melted side to side. There was no wax build up on the jar. So I think that is why I am not happy with the CD's.

If what you are saying is correct, that soy candles should not reach a fmp and have wax buildup on them (which I am 100% sure it is lol) then I need to be completely retrained on candles again if I am going to make a successful candle. I was always under the impression the first burn should create a fmp and leave no wax and the same thing all the way down the candle until it is done.

My ECO 6's I am using now seem to work but after 3 hours I get almost a full inch of melting pool. I checked the NGI web site you sent and they stated after 4 hour burn there should be 1/4 or 1/2 fmp. WOW, that is so far off what I have been use to. I guess the scripture is true "The truth shall set you free" lol. Cause I have alot to learn all over again.

Question I have: Did I have a stronger scented candle that burned much faster because of my over wicked jars? When I try to fix this overwick problem and don't get a 1 inch mp after 3 hours will I still get a strong scent throw? Because, correct me if I am wrong, the candle gives out a scent based on a scent throw right?

Back to my CD's.

Here is how my first test burn went

CD 22: did 2 burns (appr 3-4 hours each) and did not get a fmp, left 1/2 inch wax all around the sides of the jar. Now, I did cut the wick too short and therefore created a crater melting pool around the wick and it couldn't reach to sides so I scraped out some wax from the sides and tried to even it out again but I don't think it worked. So in all honestly, I may need to try this again. This will be my 3rd candle with CD 22 wick (the first tester had a huge sink hole around the wick and did not burn right at all)

CD 20: Lit candle for 4 1/2 hours and there was still 1/4 inch wax build up on sides of jar. I did however light it the next day without realizing it and didn't write down how long it burned (I have so many tester's floating around lol) and I am thinking the candle looks alot better today because there is only a sliver of wax build up on the sides of the jar and it looks as if it melted pretty good. I just lit it this morning so will see how it will do for the 3rd burn. I have to say, the flame is 1 inch high and flickers more than I like, even though it has no mushroom on it. I have just never liked 1 inch flames so maybe I need to get over that because I am in fear of it catching something on fire easier with a huge flame and creating more soot.

With all that said, I obviously need to be taught about my candle performance and what I should expect. Glad I am not selling them as a business right now as they are obviously over wicked and burning much faster than a soy candle should.

Oh, you mentioned NGI says 12% FO max, on CS web site they state Ecosoya CB 135 is 9% max FO load so I have never gone more than 9%. Sounds like 12% is a waste of expensive FO to me lol.

I REALLY REALLY APPRECIATE ALL YOUR HELP WITH THIS STELLA......

[Stella1952]

giving a fmp after about 3 hours

I don't remember if you were using soy wax with your mom, but soy burns differently from paraffin. Soy wax is slower burning, far more viscous than paraffin. The biggest consideration as the candle burns down into the container on successive burns, the container itself heats up and contributes to the melting/burning of the wax - the interior temperature rises. So something that starts off hot will usually be way too hot by the middle to end of a candle.

My 3" containers achieve near FMP during the first test burn - ¼"-½" hangup, depending on FO & ambient room temp. FMP happens during the second burn. Now this is only true for the height and diameter container that I use - this may DIFFER for other containers. I have a 4" container I like to pour just for me. It usually takes 3-4 burns before that big baby achieves FMP. The sides don't clean of residue until the last third of the candle. Wider MPs take a larger wick and longer to achieve FMP in general.

Did I have a stronger scented candle that burned much faster because of my over wicked jars? When I try to fix this overwick problem and don't get a 1 inch mp after 3 hours will I still get a strong scent throw? Because, correct me if I am wrong, the candle gives out a scent based on a scent throw right?

The short answer to your question is "not necessarily" - the FO load or the wicking are not the sole determiners of potential HT. For a candle to have a good hot throw, you have to think of it as a "system" which is comprised of the wax, additives (dye, etc.), the kind and amount of FO used, the kind/size wick used in a particular container. ALL these aspects must work together to produce the best HT. The MP is where the scent is released, so the wider the better, BUT if that width is obstructed by a narrowing top design on the container, that will diminish the HT. The wax in the MP has to get to a certain steady temp before it starts throwing well, so some people think the hotter the MP the better, right? Not so fast... TOO warm and the flame burns off the volatile compounds in the FO so you get LESS HT than you would at a cooler temp. FO and other additives should truly be considered "contaminants" of wax (which will contain a certain amount of contaminants of its own). The more contaminants there are in wax, the more the wick will struggle to completely burn these. When it fails, we may see smoke, carbon accumulations on the wick (mushrooms), sooting on the inside of the container and even in the wax. Nasty, nasty. Certain wicks are more prone to 'shrooming than are others because of their stance. The tip of the wick has to curl into the hottest zone of the flame or 'shrooms will grow.

Because soy wax is viscous (thick - greater specific gravity) than paraffin, wicking it is like choosing the right straw to suck up a beverage. It's hard to suck a malt through a skinny sip straw intended for a gin & tonic. Some wicks have better capillary action (fuel delivery) in soy wax than do others. I like CDs & CDNs for soy wax.

Curing is very important to obtaining the best HT from a soy candle. One should wait a minimum of 48 hours before testing a candle for any aspect of the burn. I let my candles cure for a minimum of 5 days before testing for HT. Some fragrances are blowouts at 48 hours, but others need extra time to fully develop in the wax. There are a few that need at least a week or two. With rare exception, if a FO doesn't throw for me after a 5 day cure, that candle goes into the reject pile and that FO goes on the reject shelf. I do not futz around with longer cures, adding more FO, messing around with the wick size - if it doesn't work in my system, there are another hundred thousand FOs and suppliers I haven't tried yet... If I really like the FO, I might sample it from a different source - all FOs are NOT created equal and EVERY supplier has "duds." Life is too short to waste time and money (not to mention wear and tear on one's last nerve) trying to FORCE a particular FO to work.

So as you can tell, it isn't just ONE aspect of a candle that controls the potential HT of the candle - it's the entire system working together.

Having said that, there are some waxes that can't throw their way out of a paper bag. NGI's CBA is one of these, for example. GW 415 has the best HT of all the most common soy waxes but its appearance leaves much to be desired. CBA is the most beautiful of all of the most common soy waxes, but its HT is meager at best and it is very particular about which certain FOs it will deign to throw. I go for a wax in the middle - that has very good HT potential in a wide variety of FOs and has an overall pleasing appearance without having to do backflips. I chose NatureWax C3, but that's based on my testing and availability. The mileage of others may vary.

you mentioned NGI says 12% FO max, on CS web site they state Ecosoya CB 135 is 9% max FO load so I have never gone more than 9%. Sounds like 12% is a waste of expensive FO...

IMHO, the best candle is the one containing the LEAST amount of additives, particularly FO. Many FOs promote frosting in soy, so I want to use the least amount possible to get the job done. FO is the most expensive ingredient in a candle. I do not want to waste it. I use 1 oz. PP (5.88%). If I do not get a good HT, I move on to a different source for that FO or another one... the list is long! The chances of me ever using 9% FO (let alone 12%) is nil.

Some people disagree, but my approach to learning a wax is to first make a candle with NO additives - no dye, no FO, no nuttin'. I make sure I have a good clean burn with the wick type & size I choose for a particular container. Once I have the best burn going that I can get (low hourly consumption, long burn time, container not too hot, no hangup at the end of the candle, although a thin film of residue is acceptable, no soot, no smoke, little to no 'shrooming...) THEN I add in the other ingredients one by one, testing each to note how that addition changes the burn properties. If, for example, I have a good burn, but the appearance is wonky, I work first with my pouring procedures (temperature, cooling, etc.) to get a good appearance. If I get smooth tops but still am having frosting issues, I may decide to add something to help mitigate the polymorphism, such as USA. So I test that next. When the appearance is where I want it, then I might add some dye and see how that affects the wicking & appearance. Once I get that where I want it, I then add FO - 1 oz. PP - and see how that affects the wicking & appearance. At some point, I will usually have had to wick up at least one size from my initial determination... By taking this painstaking approach, I learn a LOT about my wax along the way plus I can easily learn which ingredients are likely to produce issues in my candle system.

This is a lot of testing so I prefer to test first with 4 oz. jelly jars as I know what to expect from that size container in terms of HT. I don't expect one little 4 ozer to "scent up" a ballroom, but it should fill my high ceilinged living room/dining room combination with a pleasing scent. By the time I have tested that 4 oz. candle inside out, it makes testing new containers for wick size & HT go much more quickly because I have a lot of knowledge under my belt from the smaller container. The smaller containers use less materials and testing proceeds more quickly because it just doesn't take as long to burn a 4 oz. candle until the bitter end than it does a big ol' 1 pounder. Once I think I have everything balanced, I do a powerburn test where I light the candle and let it burn for LONG periods of time without trimming the wick, etc. I make careful notes about the consumption, wick condition, flame height and container heat. If it becomes too hot, soots or smokes, etc., I may choose to drop the wick size to insure that the candle will be as safe as possible even if burned by an idiot.

Choose your containers wisely. I don't offer anything over 16 oz. in containers because in the time it takes for me to sell 1 16 oz. container, I can sell a dozen smaller ones. The mainstay of my line is the 8 oz. widemouth canning jar by Kerr. It has a 3 inch diameter, but is only 2½" tall. Excellent, reasonably priced all-purpose container candle.

My last remark is directed toward data. I use index cards. I printed a form on my blank index cards so I won't forget anything. When I test candles, I have a card for each one where I record the ambient room temp, time I lit the candle, time I extinguished it, height of the flame, net weight before the test began, the HT rating (1-5), date(s) of tests, general weather conditions (ie. rainy, ice storm, heat wave, hurricane, etc.), wick type/size, dye type/amt., type wax, additives, FO & amt., etc. When I am finished with a test (it may take several cards), I staple the cards together and file them in a box for future reference. By keeping track of data carefully, one can easily look back to what went right and what went wrong. I also have documentation for every batch of candles that I pour so I can prove due diligence in testing should the need arise.

I hope I have given you some tips that will help in your testing and quest for making the highest quality candle you can produce. :-)

PS EVERY TIME you make a new purchase of wax or any other ingredient or component of your candle system, you should test to make SURE that new component performs the same as the last batch of whatever is is (drag out the index cards and compare the data). NEVER assUme that every case of wax, every batch of wicks, or every pound of FO will be identical to the last you purchased. I don't like surprises... Have fun!! :smiley2:

Edited December 13, 2011 by Stella1952

[Aimee81]

We have always made soy candles. When you say NGI's CBA doesn't give a good scent throw is that the Ecosoya CB 135 that I am using? I would LOVE to find a distributor that I could drive to (within 3 hours) from where I live and save on shipping and would switch wax if that would help but I can't seem to find anyone. I am not 100% set on having to have this particular wax, this is just what my Mom used and I just finished my 50 lb box of it so need to buy some more. Perhaps I should consider different jars like other's have recommended. My jars cost me with the lid $1.35 for a 16 oz jar.

Just wanted to clarify that in your opinion the Ecosoya CB 135 does not throw as good of a scent as your NatureWax C3?

[Stella1952]

CBA is container blend advanced. CB 135 is CB 135. Different waxes.

[Aimee81]

oh, ok thanks! Is there an easier way to find a soy wax distributor in my area?

[Aimee81]

The closest distributor I can find for soy wax only carries Enchanted Lights wax. (Millenium, Container, Votive)

Do you have any experience with this wax?

A 50 lb box is $78.50 and I can drive 45 minutes to pick it up so won't have to pay shipping where my Ecosoya CB 135 from Gateway Foods cost about $100 for wax and shipping included.

Maybe I should start a new thread asking about Millenium wax from Enchanted Lights?