Candle Thoughts

[droidus]

I recently made some candles, and they didn't turn out the way I thought they would, so I am here trying to get some suggestions!  I know one of my issues, is that the wick is not large enough.  

[Karen Ov]

What kind of wax are you using?

[kandlekrazy]

Why do you think the wick is not large enough?  It cleaned the sides fairly well and will continue if you keep burning. 

[bfroberts]

I'm with kandlekrazy on this.  I can't really tell how far down it's burned, but it looks quite good from what I can tell.

[NightLight]

Is that C3? Soy wax looks ugly like that after burn without additives etc. Wick looks fine, very clean for container. I think its the appearance thats bothering you. If you don't want that look you can try a parasoy blend, or paraffin, or play with some additives to try and smooth top surface out.

[droidus]

23 hours ago, Karen Ov said:

What kind of wax are you using?

I am using soy wax.

21 hours ago, kandlekrazy said:

Why do you think the wick is not large enough?  It cleaned the sides fairly well and will continue if you keep burning. 

I've attached an image of what I have been experiencing. 

19 hours ago, NightLight said:

Is that C3? Soy wax looks ugly like that after burn without additives etc. Wick looks fine, very clean for container. I think its the appearance thats bothering you. If you don't want that look you can try a parasoy blend, or paraffin, or play with some additives to try and smooth top surface out.

What is C3? 

What are some additives that you would recommend?

I would like to avoid Paraffin at all costs (REF: https://essentials.banyantree.com/blogs/blog/no-love-for-paraffin-wax).  

As I am new to this, what would a bad wick look like, when it burns?

[NightLight]

There are many types of soy wax. C3 is a kind of soy wax, 464, 444, 415 are types of soy wax.

How to choose a soy wax please read

https://www.candlescience.com/learning/choosing-a-soy-wax

The bottom photo is not a good candle burn. This can either be from too small a wick or not burning properly.

 

You can read more here about how to choose a wick etc. As there are different sizes of wicks, there are different types of wicks

https://support.candlescience.com/hc/en-us

 

Each fragrance oil has to be tested with your type of wax and wick.

Adding color cause trouble for beginners.

Learn how to make a safe and proper burning candle before adding color.

[TallTayl]

Don’t believe everything you read about paraffin. Yankee candle Surely doesn’t suffer. Nor does bath and Bodyworks  or any other major seller.

[NightLight]

That article you posted, that is called marketing. There are benefits to soy and paraffin candles. Both burn and use some kind of fragrance synthetic or natural. I don’t believe the hype on using natural fragrance either, it’s still being burned.

Soy wax is heavily treated And processed

before it becomes soy wax.

 

if you want natural natural I would go for plain beeswax candles no fragrance.

[Karen Ov]

Does paraffin have less frosting and better glass adhesion? 

[NightLight]

Paraffin yes has less frosting close to none depending on what you are making and technique.
Adhesion is learning how to work with any wax and pouring at correct temps. Your room, your glass and your wax can all affect adhesion.

If you want to worry less about adhesion, then pour in an opaque container, then no adhesion issues!

Paraffin can be colored beautifully, soy wax not so well. 
The colors will frost in soy. Parrafin they will stay true.

[Auntjulie]

h          

 

has anyone seen anything like this?  8oz tin and 13.5 whiskey glass both about 3 - 3 1/4" round  

 

1 lb C3 Soy with 2 oz coco2   1 oz Rustic Lodge from RE  tin has HTP176 Glass has CD20     I have never seen that white circle before in any candle i have ever made

 

can someone tell me if they have come across this before and what is it?

[NightLight]

That's frosting in Soy wax. If you do not want that look then you need to use paraffin wax not soy.

Most soy candle makers do not color their wax because of how color works in soy.

 

[Auntjulie]

1 minute ago, NightLight said:

That's frosting in Soy wax. If you do not want that look then you need to use paraffin wax not soy.

Most soy candle makers do not color their wax because of how color works in soy.

 

could it be this c3 does not like this FO?  I have made several candles with this C3 alone, with 1oz coco2 per lb and with 2oz per lb, no dyes, and with different

colors,   none of them look like this.  frosting yes, some more than others, and usually with room temperature changes but this is very strange to me in a perfectly round circle?

[NightLight]

Yes.

[Auntjulie]

35 minutes ago, NightLight said:

Yes.

Gosh I hope that’s it! I guess iVe been lucky with all my other fragrances. But I am having a terrible time wicking this C3!! No matter the fragrance I use 😞

[NightLight]

C3 is a harder wax than other soy waxes, so you may have to go up one or two sizes. If you add color it will change again. My suggestion is you test C3 without color and get the wicking down. Then you can add color and see how that changes the wax. Anytime you add anything to wax it will  change the outcome. You must be scientific in testing and write down your wax, additives, pour temp, fragrance percentage, type of container and width. Variables can also be the temp in your work, how hot or cold your glass is etc. Keep a notebook.

You can search the forum about tips on using C3.

[Auntjulie]

2 hours ago, NightLight said:

C3 is a harder wax than other soy waxes, so you may have to go up one or two sizes. If you add color it will change again. My suggestion is you test C3 without color and get the wicking down. Then you can add color and see how that changes the wax. Anytime you add anything to wax it will  change the outcome. You must be scientific in testing and write down your wax, additives, pour temp, fragrance percentage, type of container and width. Variables can also be the temp in your work, how hot or cold your glass is etc. Keep a notebook.

You can search the forum about tips on using C3.

I am just sooo upset with myself for panicking and ordering 100 lbs of this so i wouldn't have to test  a new box again for a while. Now I have my very first show coming up nov 23rd and running out of time!  I thought i would save some testing time and go ahead and test three fragrances, only one with color so I could get through the show! thank you NightLight for all the advice!    I won't sell a candle I'm not comfortable with,  I will just bring melts and candle warmers!  I think I am really beginning to HATE this C3 and that just makes me more upset!

Sorry for venting! I am also going to try adding coco2 wax (because that's what I already have) before I give up!

Edited October 28, 2019 by Auntjulie

[Kerven]

If adding the coco2, start with around 10%, IMO. It has a much lower melt point and could make the candles too soft and vulnerable to melting in hot conditions.

Ceda Serica (coconut-apricot) and coco83 blend well with C3 (better than they do with 464, IME), but don't go splurging on them if you haven't worked with them before. On their own, the coconut waxes can be very difficult to wick. I've recently read that coco83 has become unreliable and may have been reformulated, so results may vary. The coconut-apricot has yet to disappoint me with its reliability (knock on wood).

What about wickless candles along with your melts? You can make them as you would candles in tins but omit the wicks. To use them, just plop on a mug or candle warmer.

[Auntjulie]

1 minute ago, Kerven said:

If adding the coco2, start with around 10%, IMO. It has a much lower melt point and could make the candles too soft and vulnerable to melting in hot conditions.

Ceda Serica (coconut-apricot) and coco83 blend well with C3 (better than they do with 464, IME), but don't go splurging on them if you haven't worked with them before. On their own, the coconut waxes can be very difficult to wick. I've recently read that coco83 has become unreliable and may have been reformulated, so results may vary. The coconut-apricot has yet to disappoint me with its reliability (knock on wood).

What about wickless candles along with your melts? You can make them as you would candles in tins but omit the wicks. To use them, just plop on a mug or candle warmer.

OMG what an awesome idea!! wickless candles I LOVE IT ,  I love this site!!!    I have 10 lbs of the coco2, and I know it has some soy in it too, but it was cheap at the time I bought it,

and was mixing well with the last of my cb advanced, but I jumped the gun and ordered 100 lbs of C3 and regretting every minute of it!! but thank you soooo much for the suggestion to start with 10%, I will definitely continue to test this wax or sell it!!  but in the meantime I sincerely appreciate the idea of wickless candles !!!!    I can breath now :-) 

[Auntjulie]

12 minutes ago, Kerven said:

If adding the coco2, start with around 10%, IMO. It has a much lower melt point and could make the candles too soft and vulnerable to melting in hot conditions.

Ceda Serica (coconut-apricot) and coco83 blend well with C3 (better than they do with 464, IME), but don't go splurging on them if you haven't worked with them before. On their own, the coconut waxes can be very difficult to wick. I've recently read that coco83 has become unreliable and may have been reformulated, so results may vary. The coconut-apricot has yet to disappoint me with its reliability (knock on wood).

What about wickless candles along with your melts? You can make them as you would candles in tins but omit the wicks. To use them, just plop on a mug or candle warmer.

 

would you have an educated guess as to which series of wicks to start testing C3 mixed with coco2?   so far I am up to a CD20 and CND 18, in an 8 oz tin and the flames are tall and dancing, and giving off some soot and not spreading to the edge of the container even after 3 hours, I haven't even started with my whiskey glasses, just thought I would bring tins to the show   thanks in advance for any help

[Kerven]

Go smaller with the CD wicks. Much smaller. Maybe somewhere around CD 7 maybe even a CD 9. There's a post somewhere around here from years back that discussed how CD wicks were a half size to a size different from ECO, so an ECO 6 would equal a CD 7 but a CD 7 wasn't equal to an ECO 8 (or maybe it's ECO 4)... something similar to that. I've only worked with CD wicks during a bit of brief testing a year or two ago, so they're out of my element. One trick I learned with wicking is to choose a "standard" (what's recommended) for the container and wax combo, then do two more testers - one a size up and another a size down. Look for a stable non-dancing/flickering flame, no soot/smoke, no mushrooming/carbon balls, no more than 1in in flame height, not too hot. Whichever wick comes closest to that becomes the new "standard", which is followed by two more testers in whichever direction the sizing is headed (smaller or larger).

For example, if you tested CD 5, 7, 9, and CD 9 had the best (but not perfect) performance, you'd then make testers with CD 9, 10, 12, repeat until you find one that works. Over time, you'll get the feel for it and be able to estimate the starting size and whether you're off by a size or two.

The other method is to do a tray test, where you fill an aluminum tray (those crinkled disposable aluminum baking/roasting pans) with a couple inches of wax, wick it, and then burn all of them, leaving enough space for melt pools to form without overlapping. You can either wick it as you would a candle, securing the wick tabs, or poke holes and insert wicks. With poking holes, make sure the wax is deep enough or the wicks could fall over before the test is complete. You'll get an idea of which wick performs the best in that wax and how large of a container is needed, based on the diameter of the resulting melt pool, to accomodate the melt pool size.

 

I saw something the other day about the wickless candles. I assumed they were the equivalent of solid air fresheners; I was wrong. I think it was a guide for DIY holiday gifts, a WSP flyer, or something on YT. I don't remember where, but I felt like a dufus, yet relieved, when I saw it. All this time I was wondering what to do with all these FO samples and bags and bags of wonky 464... Now, I know! I almost have sympathy for the lucky (debatable) people who will be receiving boxes of wickless candles for the holiday season. On the other hand, I'm going to have freed up space so that the FO hoarding can continue!

 

Edit: Oh, and about the melt pool reaching full size. It's not ideal for that to happen within the first couple burns, especially so with a tin. If it's full early on, it's going to be much hotter when it reaches the bottom half of the container.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Kerven

[Auntjulie]

3 minutes ago, Kerven said:

Go smaller with the CD wicks. Much smaller. Maybe somewhere around CD 7 maybe even a CD 9. There's a post somewhere around here from years back that discussed how CD wicks were a half size to a size different from ECO, so an ECO 6 would equal a CD 7 but a CD 7 wasn't equal to an ECO 8 (or maybe it's ECO 4)... something similar to that. I've only worked with CD wicks during a bit of brief testing a year or two ago, so they're out of my element. One trick I learned with wicking is to choose a "standard" (what's recommended) for the container and wax combo, then do two more testers - one a size up and another a size down. Look for a stable non-dancing/flickering flame, no soot/smoke, no mushrooming/carbon balls, no more than 1in in flame height, not too hot. Whichever wick comes closest to that becomes the new "standard", which is followed by two more testers in whichever direction the sizing is headed (smaller or larger).

For example, if you tested CD 5, 7, 9, and CD 9 had the best (but not perfect) performance, you'd then make testers with CD 9, 10, 12, repeat until you find one that works. Over time, you'll get the feel for it and be able to estimate the starting size and whether you're off by a size or two.

The other method is to do a tray test, where you fill an aluminum tray (those crinkled disposable aluminum baking/roasting pans) with a couple inches of wax, wick it, and then burn all of them, leaving enough space for melt pools to form without overlapping. You can either wick it as you would a candle, securing the wick tabs, or poke holes and insert wicks. With poking holes, make sure the wax is deep enough or the wicks could fall over before the test is complete. You'll get an idea of which wick performs the best in that wax and how large of a container is needed, based on the diameter of the resulting melt pool, to accomodate the melt pool size.

 

I saw something the other day about the wickless candles. I assumed they were the equivalent of solid air fresheners; I was wrong. I think it was a guide for DIY holiday gifts, a WSP flyer, or something on YT. I don't remember where, but I felt like a dufus, yet relieved, when I saw it. All this time I was wondering what to do with all these FO samples and bags and bags of wonky 464... Now, I know! I almost have sympathy for the lucky (debatable) people who will be receiving boxes of wickless candles for the holiday season. On the other hand, I'm going to have freed up space so that the FO hoarding can continue!

all awesome advise!  thank you so much!   I was seriously considering double wicking these tins!!  I think I started with CD10 and jumped right to CD16 for some reason I can't remember now (I am at my real job :-)  I will keep trying my 3 christmas fragrances for now and know I can fall back on the wickless candles, it's so simple and such an awesome idea, I would of never thought about it !!    thank you for the idea too , to use all those  FO  I have too    LOL

[Auntjulie]

On 10/28/2019 at 3:09 PM, Kerven said:

Go smaller with the CD wicks. Much smaller. Maybe somewhere around CD 7 maybe even a CD 9. There's a post somewhere around here from years back that discussed how CD wicks were a half size to a size different from ECO, so an ECO 6 would equal a CD 7 but a CD 7 wasn't equal to an ECO 8 (or maybe it's ECO 4)... something similar to that. I've only worked with CD wicks during a bit of brief testing a year or two ago, so they're out of my element. One trick I learned with wicking is to choose a "standard" (what's recommended) for the container and wax combo, then do two more testers - one a size up and another a size down. Look for a stable non-dancing/flickering flame, no soot/smoke, no mushrooming/carbon balls, no more than 1in in flame height, not too hot. Whichever wick comes closest to that becomes the new "standard", which is followed by two more testers in whichever direction the sizing is headed (smaller or larger).

For example, if you tested CD 5, 7, 9, and CD 9 had the best (but not perfect) performance, you'd then make testers with CD 9, 10, 12, repeat until you find one that works. Over time, you'll get the feel for it and be able to estimate the starting size and whether you're off by a size or two.

The other method is to do a tray test, where you fill an aluminum tray (those crinkled disposable aluminum baking/roasting pans) with a couple inches of wax, wick it, and then burn all of them, leaving enough space for melt pools to form without overlapping. You can either wick it as you would a candle, securing the wick tabs, or poke holes and insert wicks. With poking holes, make sure the wax is deep enough or the wicks could fall over before the test is complete. You'll get an idea of which wick performs the best in that wax and how large of a container is needed, based on the diameter of the resulting melt pool, to accomodate the melt pool size.

 

I saw something the other day about the wickless candles. I assumed they were the equivalent of solid air fresheners; I was wrong. I think it was a guide for DIY holiday gifts, a WSP flyer, or something on YT. I don't remember where, but I felt like a dufus, yet relieved, when I saw it. All this time I was wondering what to do with all these FO samples and bags and bags of wonky 464... Now, I know! I almost have sympathy for the lucky (debatable) people who will be receiving boxes of wickless candles for the holiday season. On the other hand, I'm going to have freed up space so that the FO hoarding can continue!

 

Edit: Oh, and about the melt pool reaching full size. It's not ideal for that to happen within the first couple burns, especially so with a tin. If it's full early on, it's going to be much hotter when it reaches the bottom half of the container.

again I get confused about melt pools, I have even heard that soy wax has "memory" and if your first burn does not reach the edge that it never will.  i have a tiny 2 oz tin now with a cd4 in this crappy c3 with 10% coco2 and it didn't reach the edge in 3 hours! and it is hot and mushrooming!  and I could scream and cry I don't know what the heck I'm doing anymore! do i go smaller or larger? do I get a whole new series?   or do I just quit !!!  Ha Ha not an option!  just venting it's certainly the principle now, well and cost too

[Kerven]

A tiny 2oz tin might require a wick in the votive range. I'm not sure if CD goes any smaller than CD4, and AFAIK CD4 is a votive size. Wicking can be confusing because you'll sometimes see similar results if the wick is either too large or too small. Did you try the next size up? Knowing that a CD4 didn't work and assuming the tin has a diameter of 2", I'd start with a CD5 or CD6. All three of those sizes are rated for votives - CD5 and CD6 for ~2" containers - but the type of wax, anything added, the FO used, and the container can affect results, so published recommendations can be used as a general starting point for testing but not written in stone. Personal experience will also factor in once you get the hang of it. There could also be a chance that the FO is a dud in that wax. It's not unusual for some FOs to simply not work in a particular wax no matter the wick series/size. It's possible that a cooler burning wick series is needed. I primarily work with ECO so I can't give a confident recommendation for that.

 

A speedy and cost effective method I use for swapping out testers is to use straight sided containers and temporary wicks. The container needs to be smooth and flush enough that the entire candle, when chilled in a freezer, can be popped out with little fuss. Then, allow the container to warm to room temp, give it a wipe down, pour a new tester. The wicks aren't secured before pouring. The tabbed base is removed and the wick is trimmed to size before insertion (make sure to keep the wick upright and don't accidentally put it in upside down, else it may not wick properly!). If I'm going to use the same candle to test more than one wick, I pour without a wick and poke a hole in the wax for the wick once set and cured. After burning, the wick is plucked out with tweezers while the wax is soft enough to release it. . Careful not to toss them in a freezer immediately after a burn. Allow them to return to room temp.

 

Wax memory shouldn't be a huge issue in a container candle that small. In a pillar, wax memory is important because a complete melt pool will either spill over the sides, weaken the wall of wax (leading to collapse), or spill through hot spots; it needs to somewhat tunnel, leaving that wall of wax. In a container candle, heat reflected or re-radiated from the container walls will aid in the melting of the outer wax, so excess wax around the perimeter is not necessary and is often referred to as hang up. As long as the outer wax is melting as the flame moves lower, it's fine. And if a little hang up remains, that's not a terrible thing. Sometimes there just isn't a size that works 100% and you have to go with the closest. Just make sure the container doesn't become too hot to safely handle.

 

Also, since you're working with soy, make sure to give it a decent cure before doing a test burn. A week might do. Maybe a little longer depending on the percentage in the blend and the FO used.