Why is scent throw diminished?

[8-GRAN-ONES]

This question might have been addressed in some form, but has anyone  talked  to the suppliers of these waxes, to see if they have done any testing and what problems they're having?

Does not candle science test all their Fragrances  with 415?

I wonder how they're doing with their testing?

[TallTayl]

Another memory just popped into my head. When this first soy nonsense began a friend mentioned that those candle toppers used on Yankee jar candles really improved the tin throw. Yet another supporting bit of info that the soy is not getting hot enough to throw well when wicked down to compensate for this wax. 

[Kerven]

@TallTaylAm I understanding correctly that it's the temperature of the melt pool that's throwing things off? The new soys are melting too easily, requiring wicking down from the usual, and due to the smaller wicks the melt pools are too cool for a proper hot throw?

 

I have noticed in the past that scents which performed poorly in candles did very well in melts (CS Beach Linen). Huh... now I know why. That's an interesting thought, that MP temps have a large impact on throw. Something I hadn't considered before. Now, I wonder whether it's the FO or the wax that determines the optimal MP temperature. The thought of having to test not only wick performance but MP temperature as well is... daunting.

 

Would an infrared thermometer reliably measure the temperature of an MP?

I used mine on a candle that had been burning 3hr and a melter that had been on for 2hr. Candle MP: ~120F. Melter: ~170F. Same FO blend, which has been getting good reviews on throw, same wax.  Melter was much more fragrant and scented a room five (at least) times faster. I'm not certain how much of that has to do with MP surface area being larger with the melter than with the candle.

 

 

Edited October 14, 2017 by Kerven

[TallTayl]

You are reading my observations right.

 

The smaller wicks are not able to make enough heat at the flame in the same containers that previously used bigger wicks in viscous wax.

 

The "entire" melt pool does not need to hit high temps, but the whole area around the wick needs to be hot enough to create that same heat convection in the container  to rise above the candle and circulate through the room. 

 

We we need to balance the wax consumption with the melt of the wax. 

[Kerven]

Awfully similar to the issues I had with the coconut/apricot blend. The only solution I could find for that was increasing viscosity through blending.

 

Any thoughts on the use of calcium stearate in soy? My notes on additives say that it's used to increase melt pool size temperature by allowing the wax to transfer and absorb more heat. I'm wondering if it would aid convection.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Kerven

[TallTayl]

Never heard of that. Off to find tech docs for it. 

 

Palm  stearic and beeswax have been working well in my combos so far. They show some promise. 

[Moonstar]

11 minutes ago, TallTayl said:

Never heard of that. Off to find tech docs for it. 

 

Palm  stearic and beeswax have been working well in my combos so far. They show some promise. 

Whats a good place to start with beeswax ? I use 464 so would 1-2 TBL sound right, thats what Ive read somewhere. I have CD wicks , do you think 

they still work ? 

[ComfortandJoy]

1 hour ago, Moonstar said:

Whats a good place to start with beeswax ? I use 464 so would 1-2 TBL sound right, thats what Ive read somewhere. I have CD wicks , do you think 

they still work ? 

 

5% beeswax helped to firm my coconut wax, but I hear that 464 does not blend well with beeswax, so maybe try 5% stearic?

Edited October 14, 2017 by ComfortandJoy

[TallTayl]

Never understood why 464 would not blend into bW. 464 is soy with lecithin. Lecithin is ok with bw as it is an emulsifier. 

 

 I remember early on blending 464 with beeswax I just didn't see any difference of the time. It blend it OK though. 

 

@Moonstar I measure everything by weight. I would start at 1%. 

[ComfortandJoy]

10 minutes ago, TallTayl said:

Never understood why 464 would not blend into bW. 464 is soy with lecithin. Lecithin is ok with bw as it is an emulsifier. 

 

 I remember early on blending 464 with beeswax I just didn't see any difference of the time. It blend it OK though. 

 

@Moonstar I measure everything by weight. I would start at 1%. 

 

@TallTayl - this is what I've read on a couple of supplier sites, no idea why.  When I come across where I read it, I will post back.

[birdcharm]

5 minutes ago, ComfortandJoy said:

 

@TallTayl - this is what I've read on a couple of supplier sites, no idea why.  When I come across where I read it, I will post back.

 

Peak's wax page mentioned it, but I don't know where else I've seen it, if anywhere.

 

[ComfortandJoy]

I knew I saw it somewhere:

 

From Flaming Candle Supply:

 

Golden Brands GW 444 is a natural soy wax containing a soy based additive to reduce frosting. The soy based additive and a higher melt point enable it to retain a higher fragrance load and improve scent throw. GW 444 is designed for use in container candles and blends well with other waxes, such as paraffin, slack, and microcrystalline wax. It is not recommended to blend GW 444 with beeswax.

[TallTayl]

But whyyyyyyyy? I read the same from golden brands a while back 

[moonshine]

This makes zero sense to me also 

basically 444 is 415 with universal soy additive added and that what I use 415 with USA and I have blended with bees no problemo

I also used it with 464 way back when and I obviously didn't like it for some reason because I don't use it but it blended.... they say 415 is good with bees and what used to be 135 and AS Midwest blend 

All soys with additives they say no....but we all know better now to listen to the general rules anymore....they just don't apply 🤦‍♀️

Edited October 15, 2017 by moonshine

[TallTayl]

From a really old old thread here on craft server, according to a rep from golden brands, 464 is plain soy with 2% universal soy additive. This was direct from the horses mouth, as they say. 

 

Possibly it is because beeswax would require a wick up of their soy with that much USA? 🤷🏻‍♀️

[moonshine]

So 464 is supposed to have USA added Also?....so what the heck is the difference from these waxes then because 415 with USA added is nothing like 464...makes me wonder if the reps even know what they sell 

and these are interesting descriptions from candles and supplies vs elements 

bath and body 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

C&S says 464 mixes with bees just fine so why are some saying no 

 

[TallTayl]

Part of the difference can be the degree of hydrogenation.

[obsessed]

On 10/14/2017 at 5:52 AM, TallTayl said:

Insomnia is a bugger. Every night I Wake up between 2:30 and 3 no matter what time I hit the hay. Spent the wee hours watching Netflix "Glitch" instead of researching more, or making candles. 

 

Yesterday i dug into some really old threads here about 464, 4786 and others that got me really thinking. Sometimes if the direct approach to a problem is not working, a side step might be where the answer lies. 

 

The new soy waxes are melting too easily. At first I thought (along with others), "Great! I can use smaller wicks!"  The problem is those smaller wicks are not doing the job. The soy wax is pretty heavy compared to paraffin, even at similar melt points. My tins seem too cold to throw far. I can walk around the house holding a tin with a totally full melt pool and barely feel it. The wax melts too much, too soon for the wicks to be able to get the wax and FO into the air. 

 

Today i lit a double wicked tin (two cd6) in a combo of C3 and 415 with a Hail Mary dose of 4630 made the same time as a single wicked cd16 in an 8 oz tin. The 8 oz cd16 barely is detectable after hours. The 16 oz fills the entire house in a very VERY short time. I can smell that double within 5 minutes of lighting it. The melt pool is barely wider than the wicks themselves, but darn it throws HaRD. 

 

When moonshine mentioned to me the other day that a dab of wax from a dud candle was smelling the place up in the little wax melter it was a lightbulb moment. She has a thermometer to take temps of her wax melt melter and a melt pool of a burning candle. Hopefully this will inch us closer to the solution.

 

This is not the final answer for all wax blends and fo combos, but in my case it is a huge step forward. My candles are beginning to throw  again. I have been testing dozens of different additives to find a balance between the melting point of the blend and the temps needed to throw that fragrance. Beeswax, stearic, sunflower wax, pillar blend, you name it. I have been testing it. Have also been testing the other direction (lightening up the viscosity of the soy so that the small wicks can throw better) using Coconut wax, palm, and others. That is showing positive results too.

OOh Aussie Glitch? Crazy storyline , but a good watch anyway  x This thread is fascinating by the way!! you guys are so forward thinking ... i'm loving it.thankyou

 

 

Edited October 23, 2017 by obsessed