Customers trying to be slick!

[EricofAZ]

I'm sure there is a balance. Years ago before I ever started making candles, I asked a local candlemaker if she taught classes or would explain what wax she used, etc. She said no, I don't do that. We are not interested in teaching others. Then she went and waited on someone else. I haven't been back since.

Having been on the receiving end like that, and also not necessarily wanting to give out my formula, I've thought about this. I might go ahead and tell the buyer what wax and additive I use just in case they have an allergy or something. I will tell them that the formula / mix ratio is a trade secret, its why my candles work well. I might direct them to the local hobby lobby or Michaels store if they want a kit. I probably will not tell them where I get stuff, but will tell them that I have a pretty good log of my products and if there is an issue, let me know and I'll get in touch with the supplier to let them know.

I like to think that we can have sufficient disclosure to show that we are good and paying attention to detail and know what we are doing and why we do it the way we do... while at the same time keeping our secret formulas to ourselves.

[Node11]

...

I like to think that we can have sufficient disclosure to show that we are good and paying attention to detail and know what we are doing and why we do it the way we do... while at the same time keeping our secret formulas to ourselves.

This is fair. I have shared ingredients. This candle contains a blend of 100%x,100%y, and either EO or FO.

[Justjasen]

I do not nor would I tell a customer HOW I make my candles, but in all fairness I will tell them who I use as an FO supplier. This is the only "trade secret" question I have ever truly been asked; where my scents come from. I have had people ask if it is hard to make candles; to which I always reply...it is a lot of testing and practice to find what YOU like as some people prefer Soy..Paraffin...or a combination thereof...I then tell them that's JUST the wax...then you have to go into wicks..and scents and...containers..and.... they just look at me - smile...and say "that sounds so time consuming." I then tell them it is time consuming, but fun for me..and it helps ensure that I produce the best product...for them

At one point I considered making YouTube tutorial videos for free...and then I reconsidered as I thought that would be revealing too much. The reason I thought of doing it though is I see some pretty horrible How-To videos for candles on YouTube that literally make me cringe.

I can see both sides of the coin... but as a chandler I also ask other chandlers (at craft shows etc) where their scents come from etc... out of curiosity and to see if they are knowledgeable about the craft and safety of making candles. The last craft show I went to I met a great new friend who is a parasoy chandler...we now tell each other lil tidbits (and she may be reading this as she is a lurker and not a poster of these forums). I say to each their own because even if you knew what wax, wicks, and FOs I use - you will never know my exact process or formulas... THOSE are my secrets more so than the ingredients...the recipe

[chuck_35550]

I don't see any of the major companies offering their formulas on their web sites or the sides of the candles. The best you could do IMHO would be to direct them to this board. I don't want someone in my area selling half-assed made candles and possibly putting lives in danger because I fed their idea that candle making is no big deal. Believe me, there's already enough of those scam companies that put a little fo on the tops of their candles or melt down cheap Chinese candles and slap a label on them. Tell them to look on Youtube or offer to sell them your secrets. Happy Thanksgiving.

Steve

[Noodle]

There is a huge difference between disclosure of ingredients and who your suppliers are. If I have a soy wax candle I am selling I simply tell my customer that its a soy wax candle. I list my ingredients on the label but not where I get them from.

I could not agree more.

When you dine at a restaurant, do you think that this same customer would get a response when asking the chef where he buys his ingredients? Do you think that this customer would even have the gall to ask?

Edited November 26, 2013 by Noodle

[Guest OldGlory]

(middle child syndrome)

Everyone is free to express their own opinions here, and what a great concept - free flowing ideas. People new to the business will read this and formulate their own opinions. Maybe someone who's been in business for 20 years will read this and see something they haven't considered before. Perhaps in this season of thanks and gratefulness we can allow even those we disagree with to have their say without being unkind...

[Node11]

(middle child syndrome)

Everyone is free to express their own opinions here, and what a great concept - free flowing ideas. People new to the business will read this and formulate their own opinions. Maybe someone who's been in business for 20 years will read this and see something they haven't considered before. Perhaps in this season of thanks and gratefulness we can allow even those we disagree with to have their say without being unkind...

[Like]

[shuntley]

(middle child syndrome)

Everyone is free to express their own opinions here, and what a great concept - free flowing ideas. People new to the business will read this and formulate their own opinions. Maybe someone who's been in business for 20 years will read this and see something they haven't considered before. Perhaps in this season of thanks and gratefulness we can allow even those we disagree with to have their say without being unkind...

Beautifully said! I don't have issues with people asking where we get our supplies( I sell handmade soaps), but I also understand those not wanting to disclose that information. I think we all have different opinions about this because of our individual situations in life. If I asked a candle maker where they got their supplies, I would in no way be trying to offend or upset them, I would just be curious. But I also know there are many people trying to make a buck fast and want all the answers quickly(those people will never make it in the business though, so I don't worry too much about them). I hope everyone has a wonderful Thanksgiving :-)

[chuck_35550]

Customers are free to do business with whomever they choose. I sell candles and people buy them or they don't. The customer who is worried about quality control doesn't buy candles. If you fall for marketing garbage like "All natural" or "Triple Scented" or "No lead wicks" it just goes to show you don't know beans about the industry. What you really need to say to the inquiring customer is "Would you like to open a wholesale account for private label?" I mean would you seriously put the fo supplier, wax supplier, wick supplier, label supplier, jar supplier, dye supplier, additive supplier on your label for full disclosure? No point in trolling.

[puma52]

Customers are free to do business with whomever they choose. I sell candles and people buy them or they don't. The customer who is worried about quality control doesn't buy candles. If you fall for marketing garbage like "All natural" or "Triple Scented" or "No lead wicks" it just goes to show you don't know beans about the industry. What you really need to say to the inquiring customer is "Would you like to open a wholesale account for private label?" I mean would you seriously put the fo supplier, wax supplier, wick supplier, label supplier, jar supplier, dye supplier, additive supplier on your label for full disclosure? No point in trolling.

Agree 1000%! When you give "too much" information to those who don't care about what they put out and are trying to make a quick buck....you ARE putting the public at risk by ALLOWING these people to THINK they can do what you do. My answer to ANY customers' prying questions about my business is ...I buy from 30 different suppliers ....you need to do your own research and search out the perfect supplier for you....all suppliers do not meet everyones needs and I drop it at that....I do NOT direct them to this blog or give them any ideas of where to search. When I wanted to get into this business, I DIDN'T have to ask anyone where they got their product, I was so HUNGRY for it, I sought out my own suppliers, did my own research, I SOUGHT out the BEST and the hunger is STILL there...looking for other suppliers that can ENHANCE my business and create NEW sales from my customers.

Edited November 28, 2013 by puma52

[cybersix]

It's ok for me to say the generic part of it, paraffin, or vegetable wax, FO or EO, and for FO I always say they are certified for candlemaking.

My luck in this case is having to buy everything outside from Italy, so it's enough to boil down too much curiosity.

When they ask "where do you buy wax?" I smile and with satisfaction I tell them all the ingredients come from USA. They just walk away.

It's not kind when customers want a quick response just to confirm that I'm making nothing special and they could do it too. Because 90% of the times they ask, that's the real meaning in their words.

[TallTayl]

I get these questions on occasion. Normally the questions are from people who are starting out making their own for personal or a new business, and want quick info. The bigger competitors have already figured out where the best fragrances, etc. for their business are found.

In truth, most of my fragrances are custom blended for me by the manufacturer, or by me using things not available at retail, or blends of some retail available... Nothing straight out of the bottle.

The quick answer that has satisfied most of the prying questions is a list of a few commonly used retailers, like brambleberry, WSP, Natures Garden, Lebermuth... If asked where a particular fragrance in a product comes from, i answer truthfully, it is a custom blend as i don't make anything directly out of bottle. Most contain infusions too, so i can't point them to any particular place.

[LadyinCali]

How do you handle customers that are seeking specific answers to your candles?

For instance, I had a customer ask me where to get fragrance oils, and I told her there are many online suppliers and to look them up on the net. Then, point blank, she asks me, "Where do you buy yours from?" What would you say without coming across rude? How do you handle customers like this? (I played dumb and said my husband does all the ordering of supplies, and I had no idea...) Yeah, I wussed out but I was not prepared for such a blunt question....

Anyone deal with this?

With a smile on my face, I would politely say,"Now, I'm not giving out any info. regarding my suppliers I hope you understand." As the customer walks away, I would be hoping they don't see the thought bubble on the top of my head.

[candlelady]

Full disclosure of sources of my supplies wether

It be oils, wicks, jars and wax is assinine. Why

Don't you just give the recipe.

Hey! They're not eating the darn thing and

If they are so concerned about what they

Are breathing in, just tell to step outside and

Breath deeply. This whole thread is just, well,

A no-brainer. They are not concerned about

Their health, they want to know how to

Replicate your product. Period.

People that are concerned about ingredients

already did their research and are not

Buying your candles.

[Becky]

Well said, candlelady!! AMEN!!!!

lol! No wonder you're a SUPA STAR!!!!!!!!

[beaconterraone]

Hey! They're not eating the darn thing and If they are so concerned about what they Are breathing in, just tell to step outside and Breath deeply.

I've heard this exact "thinking" from cigarette smokers, aiming to justify their pollution of indoor air.

For those of us who live in the mountains of the coast, where the air is almost as pure as God intended, I can tell the difference between paraffin- and fragrance-oil-polluted indoor air, and the outside air.

They are not concerned about Their health, they want to know how to Replicate your product. Period.

This is just utter paranoia, and possibly conceit, period.

Edited December 2, 2013 by beaconterraone

[beaconterraone]

I am sorry I misjudged the nature of the majority of this forum. I wrongly assumed most would be holistic- and nature-minded.

One of our aims is to introduce certified organic candles in the near future. Without disclosure, there is no genuine organic certification. And that is exactly as it should be. Refusal to disclose components and sources has, far more often than not, been done to conceal inferior and/or hazardous ingredients. "OMG! OMG! They'll copy me!" is nothing but a cop-out. No one - including I - is suggesting that one provide recipes. Those who have suggested this have insulted the intelligence of those in favor of honest disclosure of ingredients and sources.

[Justjasen]

The ORIGINAL question was about what to do when a customer asks where you get your FOs.

If a customer knows where I get my FOs from they are not going to be able to replicate my product...and assuming that is their intent is a wild assumption to say the least.

No one in this thread has ever said they would give their recipes if asked.

That's like saying to a baker when someone compliments their brownies and asks what chocolate they used..not to tell them Hershey's because they are going to copy you...even though they have no idea how many eggs, how much flour is used, or what temperature to even turn the oven to bake.

There's a lot of needless paranoia being spread throughout this thread. Hopefully I never run into some of these people at a craft show and dare to ask anything about their candles.

I have no issues whatsoever telling a customer:

My FOs come from COMPANY X

My wax is soy

My wicks are a cotton blend

My containers are from COMPANY X

Even with that information...do you think you could replicate my candles? I mean I didn't tell you how much FO I use did I? Did I tell you at what temperature I pour? Did I tell you if I heat my jars? Did I tell you how I swirled the color? Did I tell you how I make my cosmetic grade glitter stay against the glass interior?? Sure you may know the ingredients... but ingredients are only part of the process...the recipe and the craftsmanship is what makes my candles unique.

(I said COMPANY X because I'm not trying to make it look like I am advertising which company I use here)

Full disclosure of sources of my supplies wether

It be oils, wicks, jars and wax is assinine. Why

Don't you just give the recipe.

Hey! They're not eating the darn thing and

If they are so concerned about what they

Are breathing in, just tell to step outside and

Breath deeply. This whole thread is just, well,

A no-brainer. They are not concerned about

Their health, they want to know how to

Replicate your product. Period.

People that are concerned about ingredients

already did their research and are not

Buying your candles.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Justjasen

[Ravens]

Wow, I wish you success, but I simply would not have the time and/or patience to produce "certified organic candles".

I mean, where would I purchase soy wax that was derived from organically grown soy beans, in an organic field free of pesticides? What about the processing plant? Where would I find a plant that processes organic-grown produce, free of all contaminants left over by the "non-organic" stuff? And how will the oil be extracted from the soybean? By mechanical pressing or solvent extraction? Solvent? Well, there goes the organic certification :undecided.

I would also have pretty limited choices in regards to fragrances because if I wanted a truly "organic' candle I would have to limit myself to essential oils (hopefully harvested from an organic environment and processed "organically").

Nope, not for me; I'd have to sell tea-lights for $15 a piece, lol

But hey, if you are willing to do it, kudos to you. Keep us posted on your progress!

[jeanie353]

I am sorry I misjudged the nature of the majority of this forum. I wrongly assumed most would be holistic- and nature-minded.

The nature of the majority of this forum would be to produce a good quality candle. Period. Whether one chooses paraffin, soy, palm or a combo does not make us right or wrong. Until/if they produce solid info that burning a paraffin candle is a true health hazard, many of us have no desire to abandon it. We have many on the forum who only produce soy candles as well. Basically, my point is IMO, we should respect the choice of each person and their wax decision.

[David Fields]

This thread is amusing. Got your attention? For those of us who make our living from our craft and have for years, some of you actually think we would be willing to share our suppliers list and/or formulas that we spent many years to perfect and many dollars spent to develop? Think again! People come into our store often and either straight up ask for information or try to sneak information from us; we laugh and tell them we don't give out that information. We have been doing this for eighteen years and make a damn good living from it. Remember the grasshopper and the ant fable from Aesop? We are ants. We never asked anyone for any list or recipe. We felt that we would learn our craft better by trial and error. You learn deeper techniques from doing, not asking.

[SliverOfWax]

I always get a tickle out of self-proclaimed holistic people typing words on a forum using keyboards produced from non-holistic OIL byproducts. And what's with the obsession with the word "copy"?

Holistic, Schmolistic!

[Ravens]

This thread is amusing. Got your attention? For those of us who make our living from our craft and have for years, some of you actually think we would be willing to share our suppliers list and/or formulas that we spent many years to perfect and many dollars spent to develop? Think again! People come into our store often and either straight up ask for information or try to sneak information from us; we laugh and tell them we don't give out that information. We have been doing this for eighteen years and make a damn good living from it. Remember the grasshopper and the ant fable from Aesop? We are ants. We never asked anyone for any list or recipe. We felt that we would learn our craft better by trial and error. You learn deeper techniques from doing, not asking.

Agree, and again - to each his/her own :highfive:. Beaconterraone, if you feel comfortable and believe it correct/desirable to share information as to your suppliers, etc., go for it; that is your choice, but may not be others'.

[ktaggard]

I get these questions on occasion. Normally the questions are from people who are starting out making their own for personal or a new business, and want quick info. The bigger competitors have already figured out where the best fragrances, etc. for their business are found.

In truth, most of my fragrances are custom blended for me by the manufacturer, or by me using things not available at retail, or blends of some retail available... Nothing straight out of the bottle.

The quick answer that has satisfied most of the prying questions is a list of a few commonly used retailers, like brambleberry, WSP, Natures Garden, Lebermuth... If asked where a particular fragrance in a product comes from, i answer truthfully, it is a custom blend as i don't make anything directly out of bottle. Most contain infusions too, so i can't point them to any particular place.

TallTayl,

Where do you get your fos from? Could you pm me a detailed list and please be very specific? Oh, and would it be too much to ask for you to include your custom blend recipes and ratios? TIA.

[ktaggard]

Feeling guilty about the above post. Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.