Ravens Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 Naughty, naughty; no presents for you this Christmas, just a lump of coal:laugh2: Feeling guilty about the above post. Sorry, I just couldn't help myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iansmommaya Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 For the OP, I answer by saying I don't use any fragrance oils, I only use essential oils. If the person (usually not a customer) keeps on the track I say something like "I blend all my own essential oils for my scents. I get them from various suppliers." If the person is asking for a specific formula "Could you tell me how you make this? I also make salves and would like to sell it too." (which I swear happened last week on tumbler.) I say "Well, like my grampa taught me get out your biggest oldest cauldron, add a goodly amount of various herbs, some oil that you like and heat it for a while. Strain then add your wax..."It's humorous but doesn't really say much about what I am doing but I hope isn't rude. I list all my ingredients on my labels, more then I am required to do by law, I list if things are organic and use the latin names so they are universal. More then that and the person asking can pay my student loans for the education I have to learn how to create such products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justjasen Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 Actually no one has even insinuated that giving out formulas/recipes to their customers is a smart thing to do...or that anyone should give out their recipes.The original question was regarding FO suppliers and that's it. Just because someone asks where your FOs come from does not mean they are trying to steal your creations. Could you recreate my candles if I told you where I got my FOs from? No because my FOs are one ingredient in a recipe...which I can guarantee is not the same as Joe Schmoe Soy Candle Maker's recipe. That's like saying you can recreate my mom's chocolate chip cookies if you knew that she used Tollhouse chocolate chips (which she does...and will only use tollhouse lol). You see how silly that sounds? Candle making is a CRAFT that takes skill, testing, formulas, and creativity...simply knowing one or even two things about my ingredients will not allow you or an unskilled person to recreate my crafted candles. If that were the case...someone could simply come here...ask a few questions...see a few pictures and voila..copy your crafted items. But we all know that is not the case...that making beautiful candles is more than a list of ingredients. Each candle I make is special...and uniquely mine through hours of testing and multiple failed attempts. Example: I create my own Lavender Vanilla scent; because my FO supplier does not have that scent. If a customer were to ask me I would simply tell them it's a blend of the two scents. If they then asked me percentages I would simply tell them "Not sure of the exact percentages...I keep all that stuff in my notebook because I cannot remember numbers to save my life." If they were a regular customer I would probably give them a ball park answer like "70% Lavender and 30% Vanilla...or somewhere around there." Do I think they are trying to steal my formula?? LOL no. But even if they were... congratulations you now know ONE thing about my candles...good luck finding out the recipe to make them though There are 4 people who know my recipes - Me, my Co-Owner and both of our spouses. My own mother doesn't know my candle recipe... and NO ONE in this thread has even remotely said that we should be giving our RECIPES/FORMULAS to any customers... So PLEASE stop insinuating otherwise. The hyperbole in this thread is astounding.This thread is amusing. Got your attention? For those of us who make our living from our craft and have for years, some of you actually think we would be willing to share our suppliers list and/or formulas that we spent many years to perfect and many dollars spent to develop? Think again! People come into our store often and either straight up ask for information or try to sneak information from us; we laugh and tell them we don't give out that information. We have been doing this for eighteen years and make a damn good living from it. Remember the grasshopper and the ant fable from Aesop? We are ants. We never asked anyone for any list or recipe. We felt that we would learn our craft better by trial and error. You learn deeper techniques from doing, not asking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vernie1 Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 David Fields, well said:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Fields Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 To Justjasen: I have found that as we become more successful, the more guarded we are with information. Small businesses don't really have a lot to lose by sharing FO's and suppliers. We have a FO that we blend that is very popular; we produce over 1000 pounds a year of it. Businesses contact us often to get the FO's in it and the suppliers. If they knew the supplier, they could dupe the FO. (Gardenia is different with each supplier, for example, so you have to have the right mfg, then it is trial and error to dupe our best-selling scent). We have another product that we literally cannot produce fast enough. It is like hundreds of others that we see, but we developed a manufacturing technique that no one else has thought of that makes our product superior. Our process is a secret and will remain so. What I am trying to say at the risk of pissing you off, is do what works for you and mirrors your beliefs and values. Judging others for doing the same is hubris. Our business supports our family. "Loose lips sink ships". And btw, yes, if I had your supplier list and one of your products, I could easily dupe it. Done it before. When you have more experience in the craft and more years under your belt, I would love to talk to you.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTayl Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 Feeling guilty about the above post. Sorry, I just couldn't help myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Node11 Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 Actually no one has even insinuated that giving out formulas/recipes to their customers is a smart thing to do...or that anyone should give out their recipes.The original question was regarding FO suppliers and that's it.... and NO ONE in this thread has even remotely said that we should be giving our RECIPES/FORMULAS to any customers... So PLEASE stop insinuating otherwise. The hyperbole in this thread is astounding.Actually the thread took a turn when beaconterraone posted: I believe a customer has a right to full disclosure. I say that as both a customer, and as a producer of items for others' consumption......If you make a quality product with your unique artistry of design & composition, you should have no concern about imitation.Hyperbole? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justjasen Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Trust me you won't piss me off. This is the internet...other's opinions don't piss me off. I was going to post a lengthy reply on your own hubris, condescending tone, and how duping can be easily done from an actual candle, but not looking to get into some flame war (no pun intended). So you go ahead and do what you do...and I will continue to do what I do....To Justjasen: I have found that as we become more successful, the more guarded we are with information. Small businesses don't really have a lot to lose by sharing FO's and suppliers. We have a FO that we blend that is very popular; we produce over 1000 pounds a year of it. Businesses contact us often to get the FO's in it and the suppliers. If they knew the supplier, they could dupe the FO. (Gardenia is different with each supplier, for example, so you have to have the right mfg, then it is trial and error to dupe our best-selling scent). We have another product that we literally cannot produce fast enough. It is like hundreds of others that we see, but we developed a manufacturing technique that no one else has thought of that makes our product superior. Our process is a secret and will remain so. What I am trying to say at the risk of pissing you off, is do what works for you and mirrors your beliefs and values. Judging others for doing the same is hubris. Our business supports our family. "Loose lips sink ships". And btw, yes, if I had your supplier list and one of your products, I could easily dupe it. Done it before. When you have more experience in the craft and more years under your belt, I would love to talk to you.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justjasen Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Yes hyperbole. NO ONE has said to tell people your RECIPE. Full disclosure for INGREDIENTS... but...Again... just because someone knows what's IN your candles doesn't mean they can make your candles exactly the same way...which is exactly what beaconterraone stated "unique artistry of design." It is our artistry/design/craftsmanship that make our candles unique.... 10 people can use the exact same ingredients...and have 10 various results...don't think so?? Just look at this board...some people use the same recipes, but produce individual results.I have stated my opinion repeatedly and have no further desire to engage in this "conversation." If you don't want to tell people who ask (for whatever reason) anything about your ingredients...then don't I will continue to tell people as much information as I want regarding my products Actually the thread took a turn when beaconterraone posted: Hyperbole? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quietgirl2004 Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 I cant believe I just read six pages of this thread. Out of curiousity..beaconterraone do you have a website? I would love to see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quietgirl2004 Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Sorry, never mind. I just researched your posts and found one from November (this year, last month) that said you were a newbie to the forum and to candlemaking. With that said, do what you feel you must as far as sharing with your customers. I along with alot of others on this board have spents thousands of hours (researching) and dollars to try to make the best candles we could and totally understand not sharing everything with just anybody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Node11 Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 (edited) Yes hyperbole. NO ONE has said to tell people your RECIPE. Full disclosure for INGREDIENTS... but...You're right. I missed page 5 where they explicitly stated they are not suggesting that one provide recipes.Again... just because someone knows what's IN your candles doesn't mean they can make your candles exactly the same way...which is exactly what beaconterraone stated "unique artistry of design." I will respectfully agree to disagree. The exact ingredient list and sources for each in a skilled artisans hands can produce a final product so close in resemblance and performance it won't matter if the manufacturing differs slightly.The clone and knockoff industry is fairly substantial. Take a look at your FO suppliers. How many [type] fragrances do they offer? Why do they offer them? I'd venture to say because there is a demand for the product, the copy is very good and the price is cheaper than the original.Disclosure matters. More to some than others. Some people are happy to make gifts for friends and family. Some may want to make a little cash on the side. For those who depend on their craft for their sole income being copied and undercut can be devastating.It is our artistry/design/craftsmanship that make our candles unique.... 10 people can use the exact same ingredients...and have 10 various results...don't think so?? Just look at this board...some people use the same recipes, but produce individual results.I agree. How many of those people are attempting to make your candles and directly compete with you? I will concede probably none. But to completely disregard the possibility may not be in one's best interest if they are trying to grow their business. I don't have any issue providing customers with enough information to make an informed purchasing decision. I'll go further to help fellow chandlers in a close community. Individuals will have their own level of disclosure that they are comfortable with for various reasons that I can acknowledge without being mystified.I have stated my opinion repeatedly and have no further desire to engage in this "conversation." If you don't want to tell people who ask (for whatever reason) anything about your ingredients...then don't I will continue to tell people as much information as I want regarding my products Fair enough. Best wishes and happy crafting! Edited December 5, 2013 by Node11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwantItgreen Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 Full disclosure is impossible until our suppliers disclose the ingredients in my wax blend and FOs. Wouldn't you like to know for example what and how much additives are in your container wax? Do you think IGI even discloses that to their suppliers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noodle Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 (edited) Full disclosure is impossible until our suppliers disclose the ingredients in my wax blend and FOs. Wouldn't you like to know for example what and how much additives are in your container wax? Do you think IGI even discloses that to their suppliers? Let's just ask every supplier that we use to disclose THEIR suppliers. Edited December 5, 2013 by Noodle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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