Do candle containers effect performance

[snb7485]

Hello everybody! I recently made another post asking about container lids, and I received a lot of feed back. (Thank you all!) But it led me to this question, can the container that you use effect the candle and how it throws? I am currently using a libbey interlude jar http://www.lonestarcandlesupply.com/products/candlecontainers_libbey-interlude-jar-4.25oz.html, and it is kinda "funny" shaped. I was wondering if that could be a reason for my lack of a good hot and cold throw. Oh yeah just to let you know I am using an Eco 1 3" wick and maximum fragrance load which is 1 2/3 ounce per pound. Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me!

[Candybee]

Using the jar you have should have no effect on the scent throw. The only effect on scent throw I have found in using different jars would have to do with overall size and/or width of the mouth opening. A small say 4 oz jar will fill a small room with fragrance while a 16 oz jar can fill an entire house or at least a very large room.

If the jar top/mouth has a narrow opening that could also inhibit air flow so a jar with a narrow neck is not ideal for candlemaking while a wider mouthed jar would be what you are looking for.

As far as not getting scent throw I answered this in my previous post in your other thread.

Edited May 13, 2011 by Candybee

[jackbenimble]

The Jar may have an affecton a very small percentage of the HT but IMO not really. But I think you may be using to much FO. I only use about 1oz per pound of soy wax. HTH! :-)

[EnvyCandles]

maximum fragrance load which is 1 2/3 ounce per pound. Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me!

Not sure what wax you are using, but if you use 1 2/3oz FO pp of wax... This seems to be much higher than it likely needs to be. Did you research how much your wax can hold? With a properly wicked candle you should be able to get great CT and HT. I have tealights that can scent a decent sized space. HTH

[Twoscentsworth]

Yes the jar you use can have an affect on your scent throw, how soon it will throw and for how far. A jar with at least a 3" opening that goes straight down will give a great throw providing your wax and fo are up to the task.

[EricofAZ]

I'll weigh in here.

I like two designs of jars for a great HT.

First, wide mouth. Anything that allows for a wide MP. Tureen works for me in this regard, so do wide mouth masons, but tureen better.

Second, there is a straight sided jar that has a slight narrowing at the top. For some reason, these throw well for me. I rather suspect they have something to do with airflow inside the jar.

I'm experimenting with Balmoral jars and finding they work OK with the second option above.

I never thought those butterfly looking jars would be good for a HT. Maybe someone here has done that. Libby makes them. I am not going to spend the testing money to find out.

Some jars that are overly round in the center (as well as the ones that have an hourglass squeeze point in the middle) are IMHO, a wicking nightmare and other than aesthetics, probably don't produce much HT.

I would think that some long time tried and proven jars would be on the list of all newbies who want to learn wicking without going bald. The exotic jars are for the folks who really don't have a life. LOL.

[Pam W]

I am using an Eco 1 3" wick and maximum fragrance load which is 1 2/3 ounce per pound.

I use a lot of Eco wicks and a #1 is no way compatable with a 2.5" diam container. I would move up to a #4 or #6 and drop the FO load to 1oz pp.

That being said, you do need to tell us what wax you are using.......soy, paraffin, or a blend......

ETA: I see from your other thread that you are using 6006 - so I stick to my recommendation of decreasing the FO load and going up in wick size

Edited May 15, 2011 by Pam W

[snb7485]

I wish I had know to stay away from the exotic jars! What's funny is at first glance I really liked the tureen jars, and they were the cheapest. They always say follow your first mind... lol

Edited May 15, 2011 by snb7485

[snb7485]

I use a lot of Eco wicks and a #1 is no way compatable with a 2.5" diam container. I would move up to a #4 or #6 and drop the FO load to 1oz pp.

That being said, you do need to tell us what wax you are using.......soy, paraffin, or a blend......

ETA: I see from your other thread that you are using 6006 - so I stick to my recommendation of decreasing the FO load and going up in wick size

Really? I was worried that this wick was too big. When I first light it, it is soo tall! Almost like a torch! And that's after I trim it down. But I will def. try a larger wick. This forum is so awesome. When I first started candle making, I had no idea that the size of the wick would affect the hot throw. Thank you all for your wonderful responses:yay:

[HorseScentS]

I'll weigh in here.

I like two designs of jars for a great HT.

First, wide mouth. Anything that allows for a wide MP. Tureen works for me in this regard, so do wide mouth masons, but tureen better.

Second, there is a straight sided jar that has a slight narrowing at the top. For some reason, these throw well for me. I rather suspect they have something to do with airflow inside the jar.

I'm experimenting with Balmoral jars and finding they work OK with the second option above.

I never thought those butterfly looking jars would be good for a HT. Maybe someone here has done that. Libby makes them. I am not going to spend the testing money to find out.

Some jars that are overly round in the center (as well as the ones that have an hourglass squeeze point in the middle) are IMHO, a wicking nightmare and other than aesthetics, probably don't produce much HT.

I would think that some long time tried and proven jars would be on the list of all newbies who want to learn wicking without going bald. The exotic jars are for the folks who really don't have a life. LOL.

LOL Great post! Thank you, Eric!

I love the tureen so far, too. But I'm concerned that must customers will be mad if I wick to self-extinguish before burning the last 1/2" of wax in those jars because that's almost 1/3 of the wax!!!

[EricofAZ]

I wick the tureen to 1/4 inch at the bottom. The center is raised so the tab is up a bit from the sides. That said, the tureens can be a bit difficult to wick.

[Lorelei]

I'll weigh in here.

Second, there is a straight sided jar that has a slight narrowing at the top. For some reason, these throw well for me. I rather suspect they have something to do with airflow inside the jar. .

Which jar is this?

[EricofAZ]

There are several. One that I found at the 99 cent store has scallops on the outside (the one on the far right, not the fancy narrow base one) and a slight narrowing of the top. Balmoral jars also kinda fit this category.

[Stella1952]

I love the tureen so far, too. But I'm concerned that must customers will be mad if I wick to self-extinguish before burning the last 1/2" of wax in those jars because that's almost 1/3 of the wax!!!

From the NCA's website:

"Don't burn a candle all the way down. Extinguish the flame if it comes too close to the holder or container. For a margin of safety, discontinue burning a candle when 2 inches of wax remains or ½ inch if in a container."

Of course, one can always choose to ignore the recommendations of national candle making associations regarding candle burning safety...

Edited May 16, 2011 by Stella1952

[EricofAZ]

Stella has a point, so I guess it depends on where you measure, especially if the bottom of the jar is convex.

I use a 6mm tab with a 2 mm stickum. The convex portion of the jar is another 6 mm or so. That totals 14mm which is slightly more than 1/2 inch. The final visual is probably about 1/4 inch or so even though the calculation is 1/2 inch. The reason is that the wax tends to crawl up the outside of the tab at the last little bit.

The stickum seals the bottom of the tab so the wax does not wick up the center, only the outside, and that extinguishes rather quickly.

I do test based on abuse. I burn to the end and sometimes just set up tests that are only end burn (meaning very little wax in the jar with a tab).

We should not disregard the safety standards.

[HorseScentS]

From the NCA's website:

"Don't burn a candle all the way down. Extinguish the flame if it comes too close to the holder or container. For a margin of safety, discontinue burning a candle when 2 inches of wax remains or ½ inch if in a container."

Of course, one can always choose to ignore the recommendations of national candle making associations regarding candle burning safety...

I was considering dissing the tureen, by not using it, not disregarding the safety recommendation.

[HorseScentS]

Stella has a point, so I guess it depends on where you measure, especially if the bottom of the jar is convex.

I use a 6mm tab with a 2 mm stickum. The convex portion of the jar is another 6 mm or so. That totals 14mm which is slightly more than 1/2 inch. The final visual is probably about 1/4 inch or so even though the calculation is 1/2 inch. The reason is that the wax tends to crawl up the outside of the tab at the last little bit.

The stickum seals the bottom of the tab so the wax does not wick up the center, only the outside, and that extinguishes rather quickly.

I do test based on abuse. I burn to the end and sometimes just set up tests that are only end burn (meaning very little wax in the jar with a tab).

We should not disregard the safety standards.

That's interesting, Eric. It's a problem, because most customers will NEVER follow the safety instructions to extinguish before burning the last half inch. & if we use the safety wicks that self-extinguish before burning the last half inch, they see all the remaining wax & feel like they were ripped off. I don't blame them. What can we do? Not use glass containers?

Is the Candle Association erring on the side of caution because many people pour into containers that are not approved for candles and/or are wicked too hot?

Your wicking method seems like a good way to go if the bottom of the jar never gets too hot. I just don't know what to do now, though. Customers are used to store-bought candles that burn to the bottom, & they even boast about it being a good candle that burns all the way to the bottom. I tried telling my cousin, a registered nurse, to use a candle warmer for the last 1/2 inch of wax, but she refuses, she hates warmers & Scentsy & all that.

I don't want to risk anybody's safety either. Someone bought me a soy candle at a farmers market in an 8 oz mason jar, & it did break from heat when it got to the bottom of the jar. It was on my kitchen counter. Nothing happened, it extinguished, but the chandler never knew & they're out of business now.

Edited May 18, 2011 by HorsescentS

[EricofAZ]

I don't know if the association is erring on the side of caution or if they have some data that suggests the fires start more often when below 1/2 inch. We do have to think through these things though. Imagine a tealight that is 1/2 inch tall. The association rules surely can't apply to those or you'd be daft to light one in the first place.

Seems that most of the 15,000 homes that burn down annually are from inappropriate locations for the candle. Lit the curtains, or cabinets, or furniture, or bed on fire. That has nothing to do with 1/2 inch.

So there is a missing gap in the below info from the candles.org website and maybe it is worthwhile to get the info. I sort of wonder what the other 70 percent of items are that are first ignited? How may fires started from burning to the bitter end?

By the way, my Warning label has the candles.org website in bold on it. I figure I can only say so much about safety so best direct folks to the website if they really want to know about candles.

Where Candle Fires Start *

Bedroom 38% Living/Family Room/Den 15% Bathroom 14% Kitchen 8% Items First Ignited *

Mattresses or Bedding 11% Curtains/Blinds/Draperies 10% Cabinetry 9% *Source: Home Candle Fires , Fire Analysis and Research Division, National Fire Protection Association, September 2007. Based on 2002-2005 annual averages

[EricofAZ]

Ah, found it...

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/pdf/candlesexecutive.pdf

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/candlereport.pdf

Looks like equipment failure (which is what I might suspect to be the classification of a badly made candle) is 2 percent. How much of that is a tab below 1/2 inch I can't tell. However, 24 percent of the fires were "confined to object of origin" which is unsettling. That suggests that a lot of the fires are in the candle itself.

It is nice to know that drunks only relate to 1 percent of the fires.

I think Stella also pointed out a while back in another thread that some containers are designed to crack at the bottom. I know I cracked a few just in the reheating/pouring/testing process. Surely if the bottom gets to hot, expect it to pop. That might be the function of a hot wick (some folks like to say that they have no hang and overwick to keep the sides clean). It might also be the result of the bottom of the tab sucking up the wax and overheating. And, it might be just a very thin bottom or thin connection between the bottom and the sides. Best to inspect the candle containers for this and make a decision if you want to carry it or not. The scalloped one that I tend to use a lot is a bit thin so I use a taller tab.

One thing also that I look at has to do with the convex nature of the bottom. I still want a safety tab with some height there because the heat has to stay away from the bottom of the glass, even if the sides are deeper. So you bring up a really good point about not letting the bottom get too hot.

Edited May 18, 2011 by EricofAZ

[EricofAZ]

Oooohhh, check this out...

From www.wicksunlimited.com about their tab height and reasons for it:

Safety (Self-Extinguishing) Wick Tabs

Wick tabs with overall heights of 6 and 10 millimeters are now becoming commonplace in the candle industry, replacing the 3.8 millimeter tabs which were standard at one time.

As the flame cannot proceed lower than the top of the tab, the taller tabs naturally keep the flame higher off the floor of the candle than the 3.8 mm tabs. This inhibits the ignition of carbon deposits which may be lying on the floor of the candle hence increasing the overall safety of the candle.

The longer wick tabs are more expensive due to a more involved manufacturing process required to produce them and some candle manufacturers may feel that their customers will perceive the additional wax left at the bottom of the candle at the end of its burn as waste, but the more safety-conscious candle manufacturers opt for the longer tabs citing safety as one of their biggest concerns.

Edited May 18, 2011 by EricofAZ

[chuck_35550]

I prefer a jar configuration that is about as wide as it is tall. This helps keep a decent oxygen flow to the end of the candle and are easy to wick in most cases. I try to stay away from double wicking and or jars that have wide and narrow parts but mostly a cost effective jar that customers will accept. My customers will not buy jelly jars or rustic type containers. Tumblers with lids are great but I currently use a 12 oz and a 16 oz salsa jar with a gold lid. I leave a good 1/2 inch of wax at the bottom and honestly, that last bit of candle is pretty degraded in quality anyway. Customers don't complain because they can easily light their candle each time, it doesn't tunnel and it burns clean for the most part. Leaving the wax is by design and not a sign of a poorly made candle.

[HorseScentS]

Oooohhh, check this out...

From www.wicksunlimited.com about their tab height and reasons for it:

Safety (Self-Extinguishing) Wick Tabs

Wick tabs with overall heights of 6 and 10 millimeters are now becoming commonplace in the candle industry, replacing the 3.8 millimeter tabs which were standard at one time.

As the flame cannot proceed lower than the top of the tab, the taller tabs naturally keep the flame higher off the floor of the candle than the 3.8 mm tabs. This inhibits the ignition of carbon deposits which may be lying on the floor of the candle hence increasing the overall safety of the candle.

The longer wick tabs are more expensive due to a more involved manufacturing process required to produce them and some candle manufacturers may feel that their customers will perceive the additional wax left at the bottom of the candle at the end of its burn as waste, but the more safety-conscious candle manufacturers opt for the longer tabs citing safety as one of their biggest concerns.

Wow, Eric! Thank you so much! You're making so much sense! This info would be great to print on a paper to give to each customer, since they NEVER read the bottom label anyway.

I missed Stella's post about some jars being "designed to crack"???

Seems like the 6 mm tab would work for the tureen because because the center floor of it is convex & is raised up higher than the sides of the floor. I will try it & see how hot it gets on the bottom. Seems like the 11 oz tureen would be better with the higher wick tab. My 9 oz tureens have a single 62z wick, but I'm thinking of trying double 44z wicks in the 11 oz, but I don't want it to get too hot.

[HorseScentS]

I prefer a jar configuration that is about as wide as it is tall. This helps keep a decent oxygen flow to the end of the candle and are easy to wick in most cases. I try to stay away from double wicking and or jars that have wide and narrow parts but mostly a cost effective jar that customers will accept. My customers will not buy jelly jars or rustic type containers. Tumblers with lids are great but I currently use a 12 oz and a 16 oz salsa jar with a gold lid. I leave a good 1/2 inch of wax at the bottom and honestly, that last bit of candle is pretty degraded in quality anyway. Customers don't complain because they can easily light their candle each time, it doesn't tunnel and it burns clean for the most part. Leaving the wax is by design and not a sign of a poorly made candle.

Chuck: Thank you! That's encouraging to know that your customers do understand. I like those jars you use! But right now my family members are in love with the cuteness of the tureen. lol They're begging me not to switch. Safety trumps cuteness, though, sorry to say, so I might switch but hope I don't have to.

[HorseScentS]

Oooohhh, check this out...

From www.wicksunlimited.com about their tab height and reasons for it:

Safety (Self-Extinguishing) Wick Tabs

Wick tabs with overall heights of 6 and 10 millimeters are now becoming commonplace in the candle industry, replacing the 3.8 millimeter tabs which were standard at one time.

As the flame cannot proceed lower than the top of the tab, the taller tabs naturally keep the flame higher off the floor of the candle than the 3.8 mm tabs. This inhibits the ignition of carbon deposits which may be lying on the floor of the candle hence increasing the overall safety of the candle.

The longer wick tabs are more expensive due to a more involved manufacturing process required to produce them and some candle manufacturers may feel that their customers will perceive the additional wax left at the bottom of the candle at the end of its burn as waste, but the more safety-conscious candle manufacturers opt for the longer tabs citing safety as one of their biggest concerns.

(Edit: I posted the comment below before I read your post on the Exploding Tumbler thread & realized you already know about this free service. Sorry )

I called wicksunlimited.com, & they said we can send them 3 to 6 candles along with a note explaining the type of wax & FO & problems we're having, & they'll test them free of charge, find the right wick, make wick recommendations, send us wick samples, & if we can't afford to buy direct from them the 5,000 minimum, they'll refer us to a distributor where we can buy in small quantities. Cool!

Edited May 18, 2011 by HorsescentS

[rjdaines]

The taller neck is safer but there is still the issue of adhering the tab to the floor of the container. I am seeing this fail more and more as I test (Tacky Wax). I know Stella is a fan of the high temp adhesive (PermaTex?) she uses and that may be the best solution. I won't use it in my testers as I will rewick those. So no matter how tall the neck is, if the wick draws wax from below due to adhesion failure it will still burn.