new supply of GG Palm is different

[vagabond66]

Started burning the test candles I made with the new batch of GG...so far so good. They seem to be burning the same to me. Nice even burn and good scent throw. I used the same wick/FO load combo as I had with the old batch. The only difference so far appears to be the look of the crystalization.

[lovemylabs]

Been following this thread from the beginning. Just finished our original bag of GG and all our candles turned out so beautiful. That's what we love about this wax...the beautiful pattern (among other things, but the pattern is what people see first). I would absolutely hate it if we had to "settle" on a "surprise" each time we get a new shipment. For us to consider ordering from another supplier is not even an option as we are in SC...everything else is too far. I do hope that it was simply mislabeled and CS makes it right for everyone. They have always been an amazing company to do business with...so lets hope we get a positive response.

[Candybee]

Well it looks like I got the same problem. Ordered my wax about a week ago. 5 cases. The first case I used up last week and it was the same as always. Today I opened a second case and got the poor crystal structure pattern. I am not happy. I'm going to give them a call about it.:mad:

[brudil18]

I called CS today and they mentioned that they have tested again and their results are coming out fine.

How is eveyone else doing with this?

[Candybee]

Here's a pic of two of my candles side by side. The one on the left with the new batch and the one on the right with the old GG.

Not only has the pattern changed but the color came out different too.

[Wessex]

I received an email today saying that the wax tested out just fine, LOL. But the did offer me a refund and would pay shipping back, so they are trying to do what they can. Unfortunately, they just don't believe that this wax is not GG Palm. It is in their "standards" range. Whatever. It also burns different, more out then down, as opposed to down than out like I am used to with the GG. Also seems to have a lower melt point, and is more "creamy", if you know what I mean. Looks like I will have to go elsewhere until they fix this. Unfortunately, this will cost me about 25 dollars more per case with shipping, etc. Oh, well, nothing to do about it i guess.

But I still like CS, ordered some more FO today. They probably can't afford to take a hit on this wax, they probably have alot of it. They said they would not be getting another shipment for a few months.

Cheers,

Steve

[Judy, USMC]

I wonder if that will be a regularly scheduled shipment ... or if they just order more as their inventory gets low. My fear would be that, if their sales slow down due to this problem, we may not see any of the old pattern til next year.

[lovemylabs]

Really disappointed. I was hoping CS would come back with some kind of "real" answer. Like...the manufacturer bagged the wrong palm wax in that bag marked for GG SAW2268...something other than "Yep...it's GG and it's working great for us!!" Crap. I'm no where near what y'all have done as far as testing and marketing your end product. But this just makes me want to not go any further with this wax.

[Candybee]

Talked with Diane in customer service today. She maintains that the GG will produce the usual crystal structure and that they have now tested the wax on 3 seperate occasions in their lab with the same results as always.

It was explained to me that I have to 'make adjustments' because of the seasonal changes that produce variations in the wax being made from natural ingredients. It doesn't matter that after several years and many seasons of making GG candles I am suddenly doing it wrong.:rolleyes2

Anyway, I wrote down her instructions verbatim in case anyone is interested in testing it out:

Heat wax to 205 degrees.

Add FO and dye and pour immediately after blending making sure the pouring temp is between 198 to 200 degrees. They poured in the lab at 198 today.

Pour into heated jars. Heat the jars in a warm oven 1 1/2 to 2 minutes.

Let the jars cool on a cookie rack making sure they are 4 inches apart for proper air circulation

When you make your candles make sure your candle making room is at least 70 degrees. Their lab was at 72 degrees.

I am just passing the info along so you can do what you want with it.

[Wessex]

They just won't admit they screwed the pooch . I received same instructions. Tried pouring at many different temps (even went up to 245, though not exactly on purpose, LOL), same result each time. Figure the complaints the are getting would open their eyes. Guess denial is a state in North Carolina now.

Cheers,

Steve

[vagabond66]

Here is the email response that I received from Diane. It looks/sounds similar to those you guys have received as well.

"Thank you for sending the pictures. The size of the crystals is different and based on your testing is unfortunately something that can't be adjusted to produce candles that you like."

"The palm kernels and oil those produce are affected by the environment while the fruit is growing. The temperatures, nutrients in the soil and amounts of rain and sun all contribute to the end product and vary from one harvest to the next. With palm, beeswax and soy waxes there are several variations that we accept in order to provide the natural products our customers request. There is no guarantee that we won't see variations in crystal sizes in this very unique wax. While synthetic materials can be manipulated to create uniform products, we don't want anything like that done to our natural waxes. I'm sorry to hear that the candles you're making with this batch of wax are too different from the previous batches, but I certainly respect your decision. It's up to you to choose what to provide for your customers."

Not real happy about this but if this is the hand that is dealt it's what we will have to play with in order to continue to use the wax. Just have to make some adjustments.

Steve, you're right in that it does appear creamier than before and does seem to have a slightly lower melt point. On the bright side, the air pockets I've experience so far are much smaller with this new batch. I'm assuming it's due to the tighter crystal structure?

[Candybee]

Why are they maintaining that they are getting the same exact crystal pattern in their lab? How can they if the wax is different because of seasonal variations?!!

I also made mine today in a warm room and heated to 200 degrees, poured at 195 and cooled on rack and did not get the crystalization. The only thing I didn't do was heat the jars. I never heat the jars and always got a great crystal pattern. But I am willing to try next time I make candles.

Also noticed when I first opened the case this morning that the wax smelled different. Diane said it was the palm oil.:rolleyes2

[vagabond66]

I'd love to see the pictures of the test results that they are claiming to be the "same". I've poured at a wide temp range into warm and unwarmed containers and have always had a great crystal pattern/set up....until now.

[Wessex]

It is not GG, plain and simple. This is not seasonal variation, this is "Crystal" palm wax. It does have less voids. But the lower meltpoint is skewing my test results from the previous "real" GG. Oh, well, back to my old supplier.

There is another thing I hate about CS. I put in an order today and it will be on my doorstep tomorrow! That is just way too quick, how dare they :smiley2:! Oh, and I also forget to order an FO I needed and they didn't read my mind and add it on. Again, how dare they!

Cheers,

Steve

[candlescience]

Hey Everyone,

I'm sorry to read about the troubles some of you are having with the new batch of glass glow wax. Let me fill you in on how we handle new batches.

1. We test a pre-shipment sample (same lot #) of all wax types (glass glow, starburst, etc) prior to the order being shipped. We look for the same things you would - does this candle look in synch with the other batches? We literally have a whole shelf-full of past batch tests, and we compare. We assume they'll need to be on a store shelf next to each other. (and selling for lots of money, so they better be right!)

2. Once we receive a new batch, we make sure that all the lot numbers on the bags match up with what we were sent (and tested).

3. If we get any number of complaints (even 2 or 3 among the hundreds of people that buy a given lot number) we retest.

Because of the customer complaints we received on this batch, we retested earlier in the week. The pictures show that we were able to recreate a crystal pattern consistent with past batches.

We've been doing this long enough to know that small variations in batch spec, pouring conditions, and even environmental conditions can greatly affect the appearance of candles. Please be assured though that this wax is as marked on the manufacturer's bag and our site. (the other product it was thought to be is made by a different manufacturer that we've never dealt with, so that seems unlikely!)

We understand that it is frustrating when a wax performs differently, even when it is reported to be in spec and you have not changed your process. Some people can get it to work, and some can’t. It has happened to anyone who has made candles a long time.

Without getting into too many details that may or not apply to all of you, we typically find that lack of crystal growth means that the candles cool too quickly. This often happens more as the weather cools in much of the country. Here is a test – put a cardboard box or Styrofoam cooler over your candles as soon as you’ve poured them. It will keep in the heat and grow the crystals. Obviously, you can follow up with our team on specifics.

We've recently relaxed our return policy permanently to eliminate all restocking fees. You'd only have to pay shipping one way. We have, however, instructed our customer service team to take returns on this wax and pay all shipping costs as a show of support for our customers and products.

People's feelings that companies are not in tune with customers and their concerns is very reasonable. It appears most companies are so big and removed from things that they have neither the time nor inclination to actually help out. We try to do things differently and strive to be the type of company that we would like to do business with if the roles were reversed. Open and honest, trying to have both parties walk away pleased with doing business.

I hope you'll agree that our reputation and handling of the situation makes you feel comfortable working with us for your supplies, even when things get a little tricky!

We appreciate all your support and feedback. Please contact us should you need any help.

Sincerely,

Dan

Co-founder

[Wessex]

Dan,

I appreciate your concern with this problem and all the extra steps you have taken to try and make it right. I have been nothing but happy with CandleScience, and will definately continue to do business with you. But I would suggest you test a couple of different bags. As Candybee (I think it was Candybee) noted, out of her shipment of 4 cases, the first was fine, but the second was the dud. I appreciate the testing you do, but with so many people (and many experienced chandlers) getting the exact same result, it is not a case of seasonal variations. The wax, in addition to its different crystal pattern, has a different meltpoint, a different texture, a different look out of the bag (the flakes are smaller and more uniform as opposed to a bit larger with varying flake sizes) and in my case, different burn characteristics.

Again, thank you for your interest in the matter, and thank you for carrying so many high quality products. Other than this wax hiccup, I am very happy with CandleScience and shall definately continue to do business with you.

Cheers,

Steve

[Candybee]

I have to agree. This new batch of GG is not the same as the wax I have been using. The difference is enough that it has all the characteristics of an entirely different wax; different crystal pattern, smell, tops, burn, color. I don't know how I can be any more clear about it.

[ladysj]

Hey Everyone,

I'm sorry to read about the troubles some of you are having with the new batch of glass glow wax. Let me fill you in on how we handle new batches.

1. We test a pre-shipment sample (same lot #) of all wax types (glass glow, starburst, etc) prior to the order being shipped. We look for the same things you would - does this candle look in synch with the other batches? We literally have a whole shelf-full of past batch tests, and we compare. We assume they'll need to be on a store shelf next to each other. (and selling for lots of money, so they better be right!)

2. Once we receive a new batch, we make sure that all the lot numbers on the bags match up with what we were sent (and tested).

3. If we get any number of complaints (even 2 or 3 among the hundreds of people that buy a given lot number) we retest.

Because of the customer complaints we received on this batch, we retested earlier in the week. The pictures show that we were able to recreate a crystal pattern consistent with past batches.

We've been doing this long enough to know that small variations in batch spec, pouring conditions, and even environmental conditions can greatly affect the appearance of candles. Please be assured though that this wax is as marked on the manufacturer's bag and our site. (the other product it was thought to be is made by a different manufacturer that we've never dealt with, so that seems unlikely!)

We understand that it is frustrating when a wax performs differently, even when it is reported to be in spec and you have not changed your process. Some people can get it to work, and some can’t. It has happened to anyone who has made candles a long time.

Without getting into too many details that may or not apply to all of you, we typically find that lack of crystal growth means that the candles cool too quickly. This often happens more as the weather cools in much of the country. Here is a test – put a cardboard box or Styrofoam cooler over your candles as soon as you’ve poured them. It will keep in the heat and grow the crystals. Obviously, you can follow up with our team on specifics.

We've recently relaxed our return policy permanently to eliminate all restocking fees. You'd only have to pay shipping one way. We have, however, instructed our customer service team to take returns on this wax and pay all shipping costs as a show of support for our customers and products.

People's feelings that companies are not in tune with customers and their concerns is very reasonable. It appears most companies are so big and removed from things that they have neither the time nor inclination to actually help out. We try to do things differently and strive to be the type of company that we would like to do business with if the roles were reversed. Open and honest, trying to have both parties walk away pleased with doing business.

I hope you'll agree that our reputation and handling of the situation makes you feel comfortable working with us for your supplies, even when things get a little tricky!

We appreciate all your support and feedback. Please contact us should you need any help.

Sincerely,

Dan

Co-founder

The pattern on the candle pictured isn't anything near the pattern I am getting with my current case of GG.

[soy327]

I agree, I get my GG from Peak. Also the top 1/4 looks like it didn't crystalize.

[Judy, USMC]

Wonder if it would be worth sending Dan a pound or so for him to test ... or just take him up on his offer and return the whole bag ?

[Wessex]

I imagine they are either checking a few bags on their own to try to figure out the problem, or they aren't concerned about it. If you send your supply back, I would assume they would check it. Either way, sending back the wax if you aren't happy with it will be your only recourse. I have already used most of my bag in testing. I have a feeling that this could become a widespread problem and I might as well be ready for it. Think it is on PT Sumi Asih's end, which means all supplies could become "duds". This is just a worst case scenerio guess, though. Buying from my old supplier is so much more expensive, but guess I don't have a choice. Of course, if the supply goes back to the good stuff, I have just wasted much time and effort (and money) testing this batch.

Sorry to ramble on, just very unhappy with this issue. Has set me way back, in time, money and sanity, LOL. Oh, and in washing out tester jars, just spent an hour doing that :smiley2:. Hopefully things will quickly work out.

Cheers,

Steve

[pcbrook]

I guess I really don't have much of a problem if it does not crystallize as much but has it screwed up ALL of your wicking? Are you saying that now everything you thought worked no longer works so you have to retest everything?

I switched from soy to palm because of the inconsistencies in soy. Now I find the same problem.

Does this ever happen with paraffin? I guess I never noticed or paid much attention to paraffin users having this problem.

[candlescience]

Hello,

While we have already tested the lot in question twice, we are eager to test any material within this lot number that customers are having trouble with- especially if you are getting some other product to work. Contact our service team to arrange for a return or we'll refund you if you'd like to send us a pound to test. Obviously any variation within a lot number is a problem from the manufacturer. We have never had this problem before with palm, but are always testing to make sure. Other distributors may have other lot numbers at any given time, but most distributors are using the same manufacturer, and we feel our pre-shipment sample testing programs is very rigorous, and works to reduce the number of customer problems considerably. If you do decide to try other product, make sure that they pre-test, and are willing to provide information on the lot you'll receive.

Take care!

Dan

Candlescience

[Wessex]

If anyone wants to compare lot numbers, here are the two numbers ink stamped on the bottom of my bag. I do not see any other numbers, so I assume these are lot numbers. One is "0093029" and the other is "0911777" or possibly "0977777". Can't quite read the last number, it is a little smeared.

Cheers,

Steve

[Wessex]

Well, it's official. Have finished about 25 different burn tests with different jars and FO's. The vast majority of them were off from previous batches, some way off! How can a CSN7 be too big in a 9 oz classic jar ! With the old batch a CSN 11 was the correct size. This stuff burns more like soy than palm.

I am so frickin disgusted!!! I am so close to just throwing in the towel!! I have either wasted many months and lots of money on the old stuff, or am wasting time and money on the new stuff. Either way, I have been set back a considerable amount of time and effort! I can honestly say I have not been this irritated since Iraq!!!

Sorry, rant, rant, rant. I hope ya'll ( yeah, I said ya'll, LOL) are having better luck than myself.

Steve