No hot throw - Need help

[Zanzo]

Ok, I've been testing for a few weeks and can't seem to figure out what I'm doing wrong.

I've matched wick sizes to containers to get full melt pools. Here are some combination's I've tried.

IGI 4630

FO - 1oz. per 1lb of wax

Fruit Slices - Peak

Cranberry Citrus - Peak

FO - 1oz. fo to 10oz. wax

Georgia Peach - Peak

Gardenia - Peak

Ecosoya Advanced

FO - 1oz. per 1lb. wax

Strawberries & Champagne - Lone Star

I have added FO's at 175 degrees and at 150 degrees. Typically pour at 145 - 150 degrees. Some candles were covered immediately after being poured, some after cooled and some never covered.

Some lit shortly after cooled, 24 hours after, and 1-2 weeks after pouring.

I'm starting to get a little frustrated now since I have yet to have a single candle throw scent while hot. They have great cold throw. If anyone could let me know what I may be doing wrong, please let me know. Ideas are welcome and I'm willing to try anything at this point.

I've tested several wicks from Peak and Lone Star including wooden wicks.

Thanks in advance.

[topofmurrayhill]

A few thoughts:

1 - Experiment with the wick size. Too large or too small can reduce hot throw. You don't need to have a full melt pool until the candle burns down a ways.

2 - Test different FOs. They vary a lot in strength. If very strong hot throw is one of your major expectations, you may have to test a lot of them to find the strongest ones.

3 - Use extra FO in soy wax because it tends to throw less than paraffin blends. Avoid CB-Advanced because the hot throw is poor.

4 - As a new candlemaker, start with containers that are 2 3/4 to 3 inches wide. It will be easier to find the wicking that burns and throws well.

Edited January 20, 2010 by topofmurrayhill

[NewOrleansLady]

I agree with everything TOMH said plus....give to someone else to test. You could have slight candlenose plus you're wanting to smell them too much.

When I first test a candle I put it in my 1/2 bathroom with the door shut. After an hour I open the door...if it has a great throw there I move it to a room with no ceiling fan and no a/c vent blowing. If it's on a day when I don't have the boys I put it upstairs away from me and go check on it in 20 min. or so. I like to see if it greets me going up the stairs.

[kandlenutz]

you may want to try adding coconut oil too. I noticed a big difference when I started using it. I use it in almost all of my oils, except for my super strong ones. There are various threads about how much to use, I just had to play w/' it and figure out what was enough, and what was too much for various batch sizes.

[Candybee]

The Ecosoya Advanced or Ecosoya CBA wax is formulated more to make a beautiful candle with less frosting issues. Unfortunately the wax is difficult to get a good hot throw.

When I used the CBA I found only a few scents that threw well in it. Additionally I found that the cure time for some were as long as a month or more.

If you like the Ecosoya you could try the CB135. It has excellent hot and cold throw and curing time can be from 24 to 48 hours with most oils. Some cinnamon and apple scents I waited a week to cure before I had a good hot throw.

[topofmurrayhill]

If you have 4630 left, you might want to stick to that for now. Don't put coconut oil in it though; that's just for soy.

[Zanzo]

As far as the wicking, I've found a combination that does not pool to the edges on the first 2 hour burn but does on additional burns.

The only containers I've used to date are 6oz or less, so I don't waste too much while testing.

It seems lke it may just be my wax/FO combo's.

I've given a few out to testers(Friends and Family) and they've ruled out candlenose.

Am I doing wrong by adding at 150 degrees or covering when cooled?

[Stella1952]

Am I doing wrong by adding at 150 degrees or covering when cooled?

Top gave you the most succinct answer:

Avoid CB-Advanced because the hot throw is poor.

Gotta understand that - CBA is known to not throw well. You can do all kinds of backflips, but CBA just isn't a great thrower. But it looks very pretty...

[smart]

I agree I also have 50lbs of cb advance thought that I would like it because of the no frosting but the throw just is not the same.

[wildwings]

Good tips, thanks for asking Zanzo I have been thinking about trying that wax.

[CandleMama6]

you may want to try adding coconut oil too. I noticed a big difference when I started using it. I use it in almost all of my oils, except for my super strong ones. There are various threads about how much to use, I just had to play w/' it and figure out what was enough, and what was too much for various batch sizes.

Is that the 76 Coconut oil?

[chuck_35550]

Try 85% 4630 and 15% cb advance and add 1 tablespoon coconut oil. Pour at about 180-185 into clean jars. Cure for about 5 days or try some out and different intervals to see if the ht develops. Try zinc wicks to see if that doesn't help out. HTH.

Steve

[Stella1952]

Is that the 76 Coconut oil?

Yes.

[CandleMama6]

Thanks Stella!! I have some that I have been meaning to try with my soy but never got around to it. I will have to give it a try now!!

[radellaf]

I'm having HT problems with Advanced also, though the Pineapple coconut FO from CS is also not throwing well from 1274 pillars or 4630 containers so it could just be the FO. I've read some reports that Advanced did as well or better than GB464 in HT... Bayberry is also not throwing well out of the 4630 cold or hot.

The frustrating part is that, yes, I don't get the frosting or rough tops I got with 464... but now I get wet spots.

I thought switching to paraffin would for SURE fix my throw problems, but, no. Candles don't frost or wet-spot, but they don't throw either.

OTOH, CS's Asian Amber in 464 has almost overwhelming cold and hot throw. I've tried about 8 CS fragrances, but that's the only really impressive one for sheer strength.

If it weren't for the amazing success I have with the looks and performance of GG Palm, I'd think of abandoning container candles entirely. Palm looks good, throws well. Soy has a low flame, paraffin wants to smoke. Palm has a nice medium, no smoke, flame (CSN wicks). Only palm that I've had trouble with are small 1.5 or 2" pillars, where it's hard to avoid dripping, and unlike paraffin, the drips tend to be runaway melt-the-whole-candle events (same with EcoSoya PB, if they drip).

Also, palm works with 5% FO, whereas I assume for soy and 4630 8% is, if anything, maybe a bit too little FO.

[Pristina]

Personally,

I do the best I can in staying away from scents and wax that need to cure for a long time before there is a good hot throw.

I have high standards when it comes to scent throw.

I personally blend my own wax of 50/50 of soy and palm container wax. I have found that C3 has the absolute best hot throw and by blending it with the palm wax I get absolutely no soot at all.

That's my solution and personal concoction.

HTH :smiley2:

[radellaf]

I'll try that. Which wicks do you use? I'll probably start with CS's CSN series, since those have worked well for palm, 464, and EcoSoya Advanced. I can get C3 easily enough but maybe it'd be worth trying it with the advanced at the moment since I still have 9 lbs of it sitting around.

Noticed that NGI has a list of fragrances tested with Advanced and their other waxes. Unfortunately, I don't think any of the listed manufacturers sell small quantities.

http://www.ngiwax.com/resources/fragranceprogram/

Edited February 1, 2010 by radellaf

[topofmurrayhill]

I'm having HT problems with Advanced also, though the Pineapple coconut FO from CS is also not throwing well from 1274 pillars or 4630 containers so it could just be the FO. I've read some reports that Advanced did as well or better than GB464 in HT... Bayberry is also not throwing well out of the 4630 cold or hot.

Your 4630 containers should be worth working on. Seriously, I don't think you need a 8%+ FO load to get good results with that wax. Obviously, some FOs are weak and some are strong, but the wax itself isn't picky about what fragrances it will work with. To avoid getting sidetracked by burn problems, I'd actually suggest testing stuff at 1 oz pp and just experimenting with wicking for good throw.

CBA is another story. People on the board have been trying that wax for several years now and it's basically a closed case. It just doesn't throw scent well. That doesn't make it a zero, but it really limits your choice of fragrance oils. Before you believe reports that 464 and CBA are on a par, read back through the old threads.

The frustrating part is that, yes, I don't get the frosting or rough tops I got with 464... but now I get wet spots.

From the manufacturer: Slower cooling will encourage container adhesion while quicker cooling will encourage container pull away. CB-Advanced Soy is designed to pull away from the glass and should be encouraged to do so. NGI has a new wax along the lines of CBA that's supposed to adhere better to the glass, but nobody has gotten their hands on it yet.

You've noticed that CS Asian Amber has an exceptional throw, which brings up another issue. If you want to make good candles, fragrance selection is totally part of the game. Look for more winners. Buying from a good supplier doesn't mean everything's strong. Most of what I try ends up on the reject pile.

[radellaf]

CB X-CeL should be interesting.

"If you want to make good candles, fragrance selection is totally part of the game."

Seems so. I hope that most of the good ones will be good in more than one type of wax. I've been trying half a dozen brands of blueberry and sage fragrances as those are definitely two I want as regulars.

I'm reading up on scent review but there is so little consensus as to what's a winner, and what's a reject. Still, some good info. Also found http://www.scentforum.com/

[gabriellel66]

From the manufacturer: Slower cooling will encourage container adhesion while quicker cooling will encourage container pull away. CB-Advanced Soy is designed to pull away from the glass and should be encouraged to do so. NGI has a new wax along the lines of CBA that's supposed to adhere better to the glass, but nobody has gotten their hands on it yet.

Newbie question time: why is it designed to pull away? For a cleaner-looking burn?

Second newbie question: I've been having fun going back and forth between CBA and GW415 for a month now, and getting what I think most people have found: smooth top/not a great HT, vs. not so smooth top/good HT throw. Of course, it varies scent to scent, along with all the other variables. Made a gorgeous looking pear-persimmon using CBA last night--great adhesion, and the CT is good, but I'll wait for the weekend to see what's really going on.

So, the question is: has anyone mixed CBA & GW415, what were the results, or is it something I should just not even try?

I'm only asking because I have quite a bit of the CBA that I want to use up, although I'm going to be putting in an order for more wax this week.

Which leads to my next question! We're quite limited in Australia, so my choices (for soy) are between GW464, GW444, and CB-135. I'm leaning more toward GW464, mainly because good HT is more important to me than a smooth top, and I'm managing to get a relatively smooth top by pouring slushy with the GW415.

TIA for any opinions. These forums have really helped me pick up my game.

[topofmurrayhill]

Newbie question time: why is it designed to pull away? For a cleaner-looking burn?

Well, it's "designed" to pull away because they couldn't get it to stick. I'm sure they would have preferred that it does.

They just take the opposite tack and advertise that you might be able to get it to pull away completely and get a uniform look. Some candlemakers object to the appearance when the wax is partially stuck to the glass.

[gabriellel66]

Well, it's "designed" to pull away because they couldn't get it to stick. I'm sure they would have preferred that it does.

Ahh, so it's a feature Thanks!

[radellaf]

Some candlemakers object to the appearance when the wax is partially stuck to the glass.

Which is generally what it has done for me. Others might pull away in one spot, this stuff might stay stuck in one spot.

It's also not all that resistant to frosting. Best I can say is that it always has a "creamy top". Woohoo.

[gabriellel66]

Which is generally what it has done for me. Others might pull away in one spot, this stuff might stay stuck in one spot.

It's also not all that resistant to frosting. Best I can say is that it always has a "creamy top". Woohoo.

I mentioned in a previous post that I made a very pretty looking pear-persimmon candle a few days ago with CBA. test-burned it last night, and I'm very happy with the result. It burned very cleanly, uniform melt pool, no soot, very good throw, and cooled down with minimal frosting. I can't remember if I tempered the wax, have to check my notes at home, but I think I heated to 167 (converting from celcius :-) ), added FO & liquid dye at 150, and did a quick pour at 110, then covered with a box.

So, that's 1 candle made from CBA that I'm happy with. Of course, I could do follow the same routine tomorrow and get a completely different result.

Special shout-out to Stella for that wick-twisting tip. That worked a treat!