Seeping Fragrance?

[Peggy T]

Short Version: I know one of the most common reasons for seeping fragrance on top of a candle is that too much FO was used. I'm pretty sure that wasn't the case here, as I only used 8%. What else might be causing this??

 

Long Version: My candles are 80% 464 wax and 20% Easy Beads Coconut wax with an HTP 105 wick in a ceramic jar that is about 4" tall and 3' wide (approx). On  March 8th & 24th I made two batches of candles that came out just fine. Look great, burn great. They had some sink holes initially but I did a second pour and/or heat gun and they solidified up just fine. Fast forward to March 29th when I made 3 separate batches all on the same day. Everything was generally the same except I opened a new box of 464 wax for these and each of the 3 batches had a different FO (8%). Minor other variations that I don't think could have been an issue: I made these candles in my garage studio vs the first two rounds which were made in my house. (I move my production indoors during the winter but by the 29th the outside temp was in the mid-70s so I moved back out). I usually pour these at a pretty hot temp (around 185) because of the coconut wax. On the 29th I poured it a bit hotter as I was hoping this might help with the sink holes. I also poured each candle more quickly because I was trying to get a lot done in one day. I still got the sinkholes but again, fixed them with the heat gun. Everything seemed fine until Sunday when I went to move them into their boxes. That's when I noticed all the FO on top. It just returns if I wipe it off. Four of the FOs are from the same supplier (AFI), but one is not; so 2 of the FOs from AFI worked fine (the batches on March 8 & 24), 2 had seeping issues, and the last one with a problem was using an FO from somewhere else (Lebermuth). I'm at a loss and beyond frustrated.  I will add some pictures in a sec (they're on my phone).

 

This is a problem I had previously in November but in that case I thought I had determined the source of the problem. I had poured the candles individually into the cardboard shipping box the jar came in and thought that this insulation and slow cooling time had messed up the chemical structure of the wax making it so that fragrance couldn't hold.

 

At this point the only thing I can think of to try is to make some test candles yet again--some that are exactly the same as the bad batches and another that is entirely 464 wax to see if its the new wax LOT that's problematic. If anyone has any other ideas, I'd be welcome to hear them. I'm losing sleep and money over this!!! Thanks!!!

 

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Peggy T

[TallTayl]

Oh boy! I don’t envy you on this. Definitely test your wax first lot if it is a new one.

[NightLight]

Did you blend the fragrance in very well? Could be the fragrance not binding with wax. Yes, and new batch of wax could be culprit.

You could take wax out heat up to 180 -185 and blend super well pour and see if that helps

[Peggy T]

Update: I remelted the candles and poured them again. The seeping came back.  Maybe I still didn't stir enough but that seems a bit crazy. 

 

Honestly I'm ready to throw in the towel. Trying to research these issues is so challenging. There just isn't a lot of technical information out there. My gut says this has got to be because of the 464 wax. How the hell (sorry, y'all) can I run a business if every different lot of 464 is a crap shoot? Is there ANY wax that is stable and reliable??? To be clear, I know there's no such thing as a perfect wax but, seriously, is there one that's better?

 

 

[Karen Ov]

I dont know if this will help you, but I only use 464 no mixing other waxes so I am unfamiliar with coconut wax.So for me I use 8 % fo I add it at 185 I pour between 135 and 140. I made jar koozies out of felt to fit around the jar and used blue painters tape to hold it together, and I don't overlap the felt.Then i put a box over them and wait till the next day to check them ...like i said not sure if this will help you but maybe lol..good luck..💐   

[Peggy T]

3 hours ago, Karen Ov said:

I dont know if this will help you, but I only use 464 no mixing other waxes so I am unfamiliar with coconut wax.So for me I use 8 % fo I add it at 185 I pour between 135 and 140. I made jar koozies out of felt to fit around the jar and used blue painters tape to hold it together, and I don't overlap the felt.Then i put a box over them and wait till the next day to check them ...like i said not sure if this will help you but maybe lol..good luck..💐   

At this point, I'll try anything. A while back I made a bunch of candles where I poured them into the shipping boxes I received the ceramic jars in. Each box held two candles so they cooled very slowly. I thought I was being super clever but then my FO started seeping out and I came to the conclusion it was because the box insulated them too much. Maybe's there a temperature sweet spot for cooling that I haven't yet found.

[TallTayl]

4 hours ago, Peggy T said:

Update: I remelted the candles and poured them again. The seeping came back.  Maybe I still didn't stir enough but that seems a bit crazy. 

 

Honestly I'm ready to throw in the towel. Trying to research these issues is so challenging. There just isn't a lot of technical information out there. My gut says this has got to be because of the 464 wax. How the hell (sorry, y'all) can I run a business if every different lot of 464 is a crap shoot? Is there ANY wax that is stable and reliable??? To be clear, I know there's no such thing as a perfect wax but, seriously, is there one that's better?

 

 

I switched over to c1 as my base waxa couple years back and prefer it over any of the Golden brands.won’t go back to them. When they moved operations to Central America everything fell completely apart. 
 

another wax I keep on hand is from American Soy. Plain old midwest soy helps even out inconsistencies between lots of c1 and is a nice one to base your own personal blend on. It has been pretty consistent for me for several years. 

[Peggy T]

On 4/14/2020 at 1:41 PM, TallTayl said:

I switched over to c1 as my base waxa couple years back and prefer it over any of the Golden brands.won’t go back to them. When they moved operations to Central America everything fell completely apart. 
 

another wax I keep on hand is from American Soy. Plain old midwest soy helps even out inconsistencies between lots of c1 and is a nice one to base your own personal blend on. It has been pretty consistent for me for several years. 

I looked up American Soy (boy is their website terrible) and saw they have a few different waxes: the plain old Midwest Soy (100% soy), Millennium Wax as well as Freedom Wax. So  I called them to talk about the 100% Midwest Soy as a base for a soy & coconut blend (I've been using 80% 464 and 20% Easy Beads). The guy starts out asking if I use Coconut 76 or 92 in my candles which was confusing since those are oils not waxes. I tell him I am using Easy Beads Coconut Wax and 464. So he starts telling me about Freedom Wax and how great it is, people love it so much more than 464 because it is a consistent quality, etc etc. I'm thinking "this is great" but decide to come back here to see if others have offered feedback. I found this post where @lovelyscents was saying how the Freedom Wax is just 464 repurposed into pellets. How can that possibly be ethical or even legal?

 

[TallTayl]

14 minutes ago, Peggy T said:

I looked up American Soy (boy is their website terrible) and saw they have a few different waxes: the plain old Midwest Soy (100% soy), Millennium Wax as well as Freedom Wax. So  I called them to talk about the 100% Midwest Soy as a base for a soy & coconut blend (I've been using 80% 464 and 20% Easy Beads). The guy starts out asking if I use Coconut 76 or 92 in my candles which was confusing since those are oils not waxes. I tell him I am using Easy Beads Coconut Wax and 464. So he starts telling me about Freedom Wax and how great it is, people love it so much more than 464 because it is a consistent quality, etc etc. I'm thinking "this is great" but decide to come back here to see if others have offered feedback. I found this post where @lovelyscents was saying how the Freedom Wax is just 464 repurposed into pellets. How can that possibly be ethical or even legal?

 

 

IkR? Maybe, just maybe, their production is more consistent than the operation in Central America? 
 

edited to add, I am grasping at straws here.  Their other waxes have been pretty consistent for me in the past few years since I discovered them.  Hoping I didn’t just jinx myself. 
 

their core business is candle wax, so the tolerances should be tighter than other companies with a primary market other than candles. I am tempted To try their 464, but need that like a hole in the end.  Perhaps for a craftserver experiment I may 🙈🤭

[Peggy T]

3 minutes ago, TallTayl said:

 

IkR? May, just maybe, their production is more consistent than the operation in Central America? 

I kept searching and found this post which says that American Soy Organics had taken the 464 flakes and processed it into beads which they claim controls moisture and inconsistencies. It seems weird that they'd change their marketing to make it look like an entirely different product but who knows...🤷‍♀️I reckon I can try both the Freedom and 100% soy and see what I think. I just want a product that's CONSISTENT. 

 

[lovelyscents]

@Peggy T also see this thread

 

 

[lovelyscents]

38 minutes ago, Peggy T said:

I kept searching and found this post which says that American Soy Organics had taken the 464 flakes and processed it into beads which they claim controls moisture and inconsistencies. It seems weird that they'd change their marketing to make it look like an entirely different product but who knows...🤷‍♀️I reckon I can try both the Freedom and 100% soy and see what I think. I just want a product that's CONSISTENT. 

 

I'm not sure if it increases the throw so much, but their logic makes sense.  There were a lot on here tempering their soy prior to use for better performance.  Therefore, if ASO heats the flakes, cools, and processes into beads, they're merely tempering it for you.  They may add another wax in with it since they're melting it anyway to call it their own, but I guess we cannot be 100% sure.

[lovelyscents]

I actually am in the process of testing pre-made parasoy vs doing my own blend for candles.  I'm thinking if I did my own, Midwest may be the way to go for the soy portion since it has less additives and many claim its consistent.  However, I see a lot of those loving the C series from Cargill as well so I am torn.  It is nice to hear from @TallTayl that they are consistent (no jinx intended) since they're main focus is wax.  However, I do know companies who are fragrance oil focused and can still have duds from those as well.  I guess I'm trying to figure out if blending is even worth it if there is a parasoy container wax out there I'll love just as much with less headache.  Whichever paraffin I would use can vary at anytime also I'm sure, so blending my own doesn't necessarily mean I'm more consistent.  Unless that is, I used plain paraffin with a plain soy, but then there is additives ratios to figure out.

 

It is Neverending!

[TallTayl]

21 minutes ago, lovelyscents said:

I'm not sure if it increases the throw so much, but their logic makes sense.  There were a lot on here tempering their soy prior to use for better performance.  Therefore, if ASO heats the flakes, cools, and processes into beads, they're merely tempering it for you.  They may add another wax in with it since they're melting it anyway to call it their own, but I guess we cannot be 100% sure.

When the announcement originally came that ASO would be manufacturing 464 / 464 equivalent, I took it to mean from scratch using the 464/formula, not importing their wax to remelt into a new format. 
 

midwest soy has always felt “dry” out of the bag.  My interpretation is they are using their Own base soy materials, with Gb’s prescribed additives and process for “freedom soy”.  I’m happy to be wrong, though. 

now I really want to buy a bag. 🤣

[lovelyscents]

6 minutes ago, TallTayl said:

When the announcement originally came that ASO would be manufacturing 464 / 464 equivalent, I took it to mean from scratch using the 464/formula, not importing their wax to remelt into a new format. 

That could be true as well, like CW with IGI.

6 minutes ago, TallTayl said:

 

 

 

midwest soy has always felt “dry” out of the bag.  My interpretation is they are using their Own base soy materials, with Gb’s prescribed additives and process for “freedom soy”.  I’m happy to be wrong, though. 

now I really want to buy a bag. 🤣

I agree, Midwest is very dry and brittle/powdery out of the bag.  Well now I dont know what to do with this bag of 464 beads from them if freedom is a different blend.  No point in testing it and not being able to get it from them if I were to like it.

[TallTayl]

All right guys, you got me.  I just bought the freedom soy to test along side some old 464. Let’s play. 

[TallTayl]

4 minutes ago, lovelyscents said:

That could be true as well, like CW with IGI.

I agree, Midwest is very dry and brittle/powdery out of the bag.  Well now I dont know what to do with this bag of 464 beads from them if freedom is a different blend.  No point in testing it and not being able to get it from them if I were to like it.

When mine arrives, I can send some to you to compare.  If they are indeed the same wax forge ahead testing... something tells me it is the same, just marketed differently. 

[Soy-N-Suds]

On 4/16/2020 at 1:12 PM, lovelyscents said:

@Peggy T also see this thread

 

 

I ended up not trying it. I couldn't find anyone who said they tried it. 

 

I use their 100% Midwest Soy and I like it A LOT. The only reason I was wondering about this was I wanted colored candles and something that doesn't have to cool down as much as the Midwest does. Midwest doesn't color well and it needs to be less than 105* to pour for nice tops. 

 

 

[Soy-N-Suds]

On 4/16/2020 at 12:29 PM, TallTayl said:

 

IkR? Maybe, just maybe, their production is more consistent than the operation in Central America? 
 

edited to add, I am grasping at straws here.  Their other waxes have been pretty consistent for me in the past few years since I discovered them.  Hoping I didn’t just jinx myself. 
 

their core business is candle wax, so the tolerances should be tighter than other companies with a primary market other than candles. I am tempted To try their 464, but need that like a hole in the end.  Perhaps for a craftserver experiment I may 🙈🤭

I haven't noticed any changes with Midwest Soy from batch to batch. I really like it and decided to make it my go to.

[NightLight]

Seems to me you have too much fragrance. Drop down to 6 per cent. You are cutting the 464 with the coconut wax which may vary a lot.

I would do a tester and try that before throwing in the towel. You may not need a high load of fragrance with the wax combinations.

[Peggy T]

On 4/21/2020 at 8:54 AM, NightLight said:

Seems to me you have too much fragrance. Drop down to 6 per cent. You are cutting the 464 with the coconut wax which may vary a lot.

I would do a tester and try that before throwing in the towel. You may not need a high load of fragrance with the wax combinations.

I'll give that a go too as I try different options. Plus, I'd save money. 

[Peggy T]

On 4/16/2020 at 2:55 PM, TallTayl said:

All right guys, you got me.  I just bought the freedom soy to test along side some old 464. Let’s play. 

I am super curious to hear what you think. 

 

As far as Midwest soy, I've never used straight soy. Any thoughts on how it might do blended with some EasyBeads? I have a ton of it here. I also have some universal soy additive from Cargill that I've never tried.

[TallTayl]

Poured a simple jar with the new 464/freedom yesterday. Nice adhesion and an easy pour so far. did not pay attention to heating/cooling to see how forgiving the wax is. 
 

Added 10% FO to push the envelope and it is holding it just fine. Heat gunned easily. Will give it a couple of more days to see how it holds before lighting. 
 

edited to add photo. This was heat gunned several times to see if I could make it crack like other soy waxes. 

[Peggy T]

On 4/22/2020 at 11:23 AM, TallTayl said:

Poured a simple jar with the new 464/freedom yesterday. Nice adhesion and an easy pour so far. did not pay attention to heating/cooling to see how forgiving the wax is. 
 

Added 10% FO to push the envelope and it is holding it just fine. Heat gunned easily. Will give it a couple of more days to see how it holds before lighting. 
 

edited to add photo. This was heat gunned several times to see if I could make it crack like other soy waxes. 

@TallTaylHave you tried burning this yet? I ordered the freedom wax as well as the midwest soy. I'm going to pour some tomorrow. 🤞

[maecan]

Update plz