Leave-in conditioning spray going bad?

[Paintguru]

I'm having an issue with some leave-in conditioner I made for my daughter.  I used one of Susan's recipes over at Swiftcraft, which are usually spot on, so I'm sure I'm doing something wrong.  Followed her prep instructions, etc.  After probably 3-4 weeks, the spray (typically when it is actually sprayed, not in the bottle) has a definite bad seafood/low tide sort of smell.  I did add Germall to keep this from happening, but apparently it's not working.  This is batch #2 that this has happened with.  Do I need a different preservative?  I'm stumped.  

[kandlekrazy]

I'd make sure that the preservative is still good.  You're product should be lasting months not weeks.

[Paintguru]

Hmm, okay.  What is the shelf life of preservatives?  I didn't see one listed on the bottle.  

[TallTayl]

What is the formula?

[Paintguru]

LEAVE-IN CONDITIONER WITH OILS
HEATED WATER PHASE (83.5%)
68.5% water
10% aloe vera
4% glycerin
1% hydrolyzed protein of choice
 
HEATED OIL PHASE (8%)
2% Incroquat BTMS
0.25% cetrimonium chloride
1.75% Incroquat CR
up to 4% oils of choice (2% Sweet almond and 2% frac coconut)
 
COOL DOWN PHASE (8.5%)
2% cationic polymer (like honeyquat)
1% panthenol
2% cyclomethicone
2% dimethicone
1% fragrance oil
0.5% preservative (I use liquid germall plus)
 

[TallTayl]

Did you heat and hold the distilled water phase? 

 

Honeyquat and BTMS can have an odor like you described, but should not come through in such a low concentration. You weighed everything on a gram scale, including the preservative I’m guessing. And added the preservative at the right temp.... 

[Paintguru]

Yea, heated and held both water and oil phase.  Added preservative at the end when almost back to room temp, so temp should have been low enough.  

[Sarah S]

8 hours ago, TallTayl said:

Did you heat and hold the distilled water phase? 

 

Honeyquat and BTMS can have an odor like you described, but should not come through in such a low concentration. You weighed everything on a gram scale, including the preservative I’m guessing. And added the preservative at the right temp.... 

 

That was my first thought too, that the quat might be the problem. Doesn't the cetrimonium have a fishy odor too? I've never used that particular ingredient, but I thought I recalled that most cationics have that tendency. 

What about the aloe? Maybe that's off....

[Sarah S]

Another thought, what fragrance are you using?

I once made a light sprayable lotion with NG's Opium dupe as the fragrance. It morphed and smelled so bad! Not fishy, but it definitely wasn't right. I'm not looking at my recipe, but I'm sure I used at least one cationic, either BTMS or a polyquat, because I usually do!

[TallTayl]

It could be any number of things. Did you monitor the heat and hold process with a digital thermometer? Fully Sanitize all equipment and such? 

 

Cetac does not have a fishy odor. It is kinda neutral unless aerolized. Then it will take your breath away. At that tiny percent you’d not even know it’s there. 

[Paintguru]

I made a larger batch of just the aloe and it doesn't smell off.  I tried two fragrances, both from NG, and each did the same thing.  Seem fine at first and then turned after a while.  I did the heat and hold in a water bath with temperature controlled heater.  I did make a lotion with the preservative and that seems fine, so I don't *think* it is the preservative.  Maybe I ditch the the honeyquat and hydrolyzed protein??    

Edited March 18, 2018 by Paintguru

[Sarah S]

It's tedious, but yes, at this point the best thing to do would be to make the same formula, but eliminate one ingredient at a time. Hopefully you should be able to isolate the problem ingredient before you have to make it a dozen times, lol.

I would start by making it with everything except the honey quat. See what it does. If that doesn't solve it, make it with everything except the protein. Etc, etc...

Kind of like isolating a food allergy.

I am curious to hear what results you have!

[Paintguru]

I know this is an old one, but I finally got back and made another batch and did find the culprit.  As TT noted, I believe it was the BTMS.  After some Google searching, I found that the low tide smell is common for products with BTMS, but that some people are more sensitive to it than others.  Next batch I'm going to lower the BTMS to maybe 1% and add Incroquat CR as well.  

[franu61]

 Interesting! I use BTMS in my lotions, and a lot of people notice an off smell after a while. Not noticeable to me, but  I will do some tweaking with the recipe too

1 hour ago, Paintguru said:

I know this is an old one, but I finally got back and made another batch and did find the culprit.  As TT noted, I believe it was the BTMS.  After some Google searching, I found that the low tide smell is common for products with BTMS, but that some people are more sensitive to it than others.  Next batch I'm going to lower the BTMS to maybe 1% and add Incroquat CR as well.  

.  Thanks!

[Paintguru]

6 hours ago, franu61 said:

 Interesting! I use BTMS in my lotions, and a lot of people notice an off smell after a while. Not noticeable to me, but  I will do some tweaking with the recipe too

.  Thanks!

 

Yeah my wife can smell it a mile away.  I can smell it on occasion.  

 

Anyone have any other thoughts on a sub for the BTMS in a spray conditioner/detangler application?  I forgot I had already added some CR, so I'm not sure I want to bump that up any more.  E-wax/Polawax?  Would lose some conditioning properties though, but maybe the smell too!

[Sarah S]

1 hour ago, Paintguru said:

 

Yeah my wife can smell it a mile away.  I can smell it on occasion.  

 

Anyone have any other thoughts on a sub for the BTMS in a spray conditioner/detangler application?  I forgot I had already added some CR, so I'm not sure I want to bump that up any more.  E-wax/Polawax?  Would lose some conditioning properties though, but maybe the smell too!

 

I would not use ewax, personally, I don't think it would feel very good and like you said it wouldn't condition as well. Lotioncrafter sells Varisoft EQ, that supposedly works well as a conditioner. It looks a little tricky to work with, so I haven't tried it yet, but that might be an option for you.

Or maybe take out the oil soluable ingredients and just make a water based spray?

[Paintguru]

Apparently Ice Hair Restore is much less finicky than Varisoft EQ, so that may be an option for this.  Or maybe I just have a bad batch of BTMS and need to see if a new order would fix the issue.  Or I need both!  

[NightLight]

Redo the recipe, and keep it simple for testing. Take out the aloe and proteins. Use just the emulsifiers' oils and silicones and see how it is. If that’s a fail, take out the CC. You may not need it any way you have two very good emulsifier for detangling there.

BTMS does has a fishy odor btw, you scent to cover. I always take any recipe and go for the fewest ingredients to test so it’s easier to find out the culprit that is making a fail.

BTMS is kind of the gold standard for conditioners.