My first blend of any wax. 464 and 4625

[Trappeur]

1.  This will be my first blend of a wax.  I'm trying 50/50 of 464 and 4625 for melts

Wish me luck!.

 

2.  I was thinking with all the problems we are all having with waxes and downsizing what if I added 1 or 2 tablespoons of 4625 to 1 pouund of 464 for my jar candle?

4625 says it is for pillars or tarts/melts.

1.  With that little amount of 4625 added, would that help scent throw for the better?

2.  Is it not even advisable to even do this combo?

 

Now I have cured 464 wax already sitting in a pot (2 weeks been sitting)

How much longer should I wait after I add some 4625?

 

Thanks.................Trappeur

[Moonstar]

The combo Im going to try with 464 is 4630 or possibly 6006 . Did you change your pour temp when adding 4625 ? I forgot to add the ratio 

Im going to first try is 70-30 soy - 6006 or 4630 and go from there. If I were to use beeswax Id try much less, about 1-2 TBl per pound .

Edited October 13, 2017 by Moonstar

[Trappeur]

Moonstar, I ordered just a 10 pound slab and it's coming today, so I haven't done anything yet.

I forgot to order a little bit of beeswax pellets.  I only ordered 3 times this past week from Flaming and each time I forgot.

There is only 1 problem of making a jar candle if I start testing and liking a blend...The 4630 is twice the price of 464 and with my accounts I have man oh man, it's going to cost me so much more and I can't raise my prices...I just raised my price of 35cents a jar this past year.   This is disgusting thinking I might have to do a blend.

 

Trappeur

[Trappeur]

4 hours ago, Moonstar said:

The combo Im going to try with 464 is 4630 or possibly 6006 . Did you change your pour temp when adding 4625 ? I forgot to add the ratio 

Im going to first try is 70-30 soy - 6006 or 4630 and go from there. If I were to use beeswax Id try much less, about 1-2 TBl per pound .

I really have no set pour temperature when making candles.  Generally I pour about 145 to like 149...Lately with as much as I have been pouring and with all the pour pots going at one time sometimes the temperature will drop down to 130 or somewhere around that temperature.  As long as I have the oils mixed with the wax at the right temperature that is my most concern.  I always have to do a shallow top off (repour) as I put an embed sitting on top of each candle so it doesn't make any difference what I pour the initial jar at but I do have to pour the top off at the exact temperature to seal in the embed and to have a nice smooth shiny glassy finish.

 

Is 4625 supposed to be poured at a certain temperature?   Cause I wouldn't think it makes a difference except for the finished looks of the candle..

 

Trappeur

[Moonstar]

I giess I havent payed too much attention to the recommended   pour temp of 4625 since Ive only used it in blends for wax melts. Im really anxious to hear your

results of adding some 4625 to your 464. Are you still going to let them cure for 2 weeks ? 

[Trappeur]

I don't know .....should I let them sit?

[Trappeur]

So don't do a blend of 4625 with the 464 for candle jars since 4625 says for pillars or tarts?   Is that wrong?

 

Trappeur

[moonshine]

It could cause some shrinking and pulling away from the glass but it can't hurt to try 

I use 4625 with a parasoy container for melts and chunk tarts - I have never added it to a glass container candle 

4630 may be your best bet if your wanting to blend but you may not need a lot making it more cost manageable 

have you tried adding palm stearic?

this will firm the burn and could boost ht- I added it when I used 464 years ago but as we all know...."soy wax is now cray cray 😜 and doesn't do what we think anymore"

[Moonstar]

2 hours ago, Trappeur said:

So don't do a blend of 4625 with the 464 for candle jars since 4625 says for pillars or tarts?   Is that wrong?

 

Trappeur

I guess if you've already made some and are using so little of 4625 - less than 2 TBLS pp of wax it should be OK ??? Doesn't hurt to try but I only use 4625 (pillar/tart wax) in 

wax melts and I use a container wax such as 4630 or 6006 to blend w/ soy. I don't have the cash or patience to test + test like many on here if I don't find a good combo with 

this I will get a small bag of 444 + coconut wax as @ComfortandJoy has reported some positive results. I think she's using 50/50 or 55/45 ?? IDK I'll have to find her post 

but I don't recall her jars /sizes and wicks though. Also, I don't make ANYYYYY where near the amount of candles you make to invest so much money/time to figure all 

this out. 

[Moonstar]

2 hours ago, moonshine said:

It could cause some shrinking and pulling away from the glass but it can't hurt to try 

I use 4625 with a parasoy container for melts and chunk tarts - I have never added it to a glass container candle 

4630 may be your best bet if your wanting to blend but you may not need a lot making it more cost manageable 

have you tried adding palm stearic?

this will firm the burn and could boost ht- I added it when I used 464 years ago but as we all know...."soy wax is now cray cray 😜 and doesn't do what we think anymore"

I always thought steric acid could hinder scent throw if adding more that a few TBL pp, but you referred to it as palm steric, is that different than steric acid ?

What about Vybar or Universal soy additive, would those work in this instance, if so how much is added ?

[Trappeur]

Well I won't use 4625 with the 464......

I'll just use it for the melts.

In the mean time I need to finish up my orders and I'll somehow figure this out with different wicks like the rrd ones, and premier...I don't know.....I'm just so lost especially now that I have a tremendous order for 8oz tins that I am retesting tomorrow with other wicks.   This just makes me sick.

 

Here is a picture of a 3" crystal that is burning right this minute that I have downsized to a cd 8 from a 10 and some that needed a 12 for tougher scents....Now this is the 2'nd burn...but it's been burning all day.  I clipped the wick only once since I initially burned it.  The melt pool is close to 3/8".  Granted this candle is burning all day long and the wick wasn't trimmed but I like the melt pool depth, the glass is not hot at all as I can pickup very very easily and the throw is good (9 days......I got frustrated and antsy)  It's candy corn from bittercreek.  I consider Candy corn to be a light thrower anyway.  Now this passes my inspection and I am very happy with it if it stays like that to the end. But it probably won't stay like that.  I would guess a cd7 is going to be perfect....if not I guess I will try some rrd's or premiers...or maybe some 4630 added to the wax or maybe some beeswax???????????????????????????? .or who the hell knows....Just disgusting to say the least... Now the 8oz tins are 3" so I have a cd8 and a 10 I'm testing from a cd 12....I've gone to cd 10s in the pint jars that I'm happy with so far....now I'm worried that maybe my throws aren't good enough...? hmmmm I'll burn 2 tonight....

 

Trappeur

[birdcharm]

3 hours ago, Moonstar said:

... I will get a small bag of 444 + coconut wax as @ComfortandJoy has reported some positive results. I think she's using 50/50 or 55/45 ?? IDK I'll have to find her post 

but I don't recall her jars /sizes and wicks though ...

 

I spotted her post, so thought I'd add it here ...

 

Quote

I have not yet found the right balance yet unfortunately. I ditched the beeswax for now and I'm currently doing coconut wax and soy blends at 50:50 and 55:45 coconut to soy.  I'm using gb 444

 

That was in this thread (link)

 

Don't mind me, I'm just reading and playing a private game of "Concentration" ... lol.

 

[Moonstar]

2 hours ago, birdcharm said:

 

I spotted her post, so thought I'd add it here ...

 

 

That was in this thread (link)

 

Don't mind me, I'm just reading and playing a private game of "Concentration" ... lol.

 

You are so thoughtful  Thank you Birdcharm for finding the thread !

[moonshine]

16 hours ago, Moonstar said:

I always thought steric acid could hinder scent throw if adding more that a few TBL pp, but you referred to it as palm steric, is that different than steric acid ?

What about Vybar or Universal soy additive, would those work in this instance, if so how much is added ?

It has been thought to hinder throw if using to much but are we using the right wicks with it?

these are questions That need to be revisited now with the changes in soy - all normal is not normal anymore and no rules apply 

 

as a general rule yes 1 T per pound stearic is what you would start with to see if does anything for you In a container and like 10 percent to aid in mold release for melts and pillars 

 

palm stearic IS different, it's palm  - they have tallow stearic also and USA works well with soy waxes- I use it in 415 but it hasn't solved burn and throw issues for me so far 

 

Vybar is more paraffin I believe but don't quote me on that as I never used it before 

[moonshine]

15 hours ago, Trappeur said:

Well I won't use 4625 with the 464......

I'll just use it for the melts.

In the mean time I need to finish up my orders and I'll somehow figure this out with different wicks like the rrd ones, and premier...I don't know.....I'm just so lost especially now that I have a tremendous order for 8oz tins that I am retesting tomorrow with other wicks.   This just makes me sick.

 

Here is a picture of a 3" crystal that is burning right this minute that I have downsized to a cd 8 from a 10 and some that needed a 12 for tougher scents....Now this is the 2'nd burn...but it's been burning all day.  I clipped the wick only once since I initially burned it.  The melt pool is close to 3/8".  Granted this candle is burning all day long and the wick wasn't trimmed but I like the melt pool depth, the glass is not hot at all as I can pickup very very easily and the throw is good (9 days......I got frustrated and antsy)  It's candy corn from bittercreek.  I consider Candy corn to be a light thrower anyway.  Now this passes my inspection and I am very happy with it if it stays like that to the end. But it probably won't stay like that.  I would guess a cd7 is going to be perfect....if not I guess I will try some rrd's or premiers...or maybe some 4630 added to the wax or maybe some beeswax???????????????????????????? .or who the hell knows....Just disgusting to say the least... Now the 8oz tins are 3" so I have a cd8 and a 10 I'm testing from a cd 12....I've gone to cd 10s in the pint jars that I'm happy with so far....now I'm worried that maybe my throws aren't good enough...? hmmmm I'll burn 2 tonight....

 

Trappeur

A CDN 8 could be a good balance if the 7 is too weak and if you find the RRD work better in 464 for throw try the 34 or 37 and see what happens 

 

[Moonstar]

1 hour ago, moonshine said:

It has been thought to hinder throw if using to much but are we using the right wicks with it?

these are questions That need to be revisited now with the changes in soy - all normal is not normal anymore and no rules apply 

 

as a general rule yes 1 T per pound stearic is what you would start with to see if does anything for you In a container and like 10 percent to aid in mold release for melts and pillars 

 

palm stearic IS different, it's palm  - they have tallow stearic also and USA works well with soy waxes- I use it in 415 but it hasn't solved burn and throw issues for me so far 

 

Vybar is more paraffin I believe but don't quote me on that as I never used it before 

Im glad I asked you the question about stecic acid . Can you please provide a link of  the right kind I need , that is of course if you have time  Thanks for clearing that up !

I would have ordered the wrong kind lol !

[ComfortandJoy]

19 hours ago, Moonstar said:

I guess if you've already made some and are using so little of 4625 - less than 2 TBLS pp of wax it should be OK ??? Doesn't hurt to try but I only use 4625 (pillar/tart wax) in 

wax melts and I use a container wax such as 4630 or 6006 to blend w/ soy. I don't have the cash or patience to test + test like many on here if I don't find a good combo with 

this I will get a small bag of 444 + coconut wax as @ComfortandJoy has reported some positive results. I think she's using 50/50 or 55/45 ?? IDK I'll have to find her post 

but I don't recall her jars /sizes and wicks though. Also, I don't make ANYYYYY where near the amount of candles you make to invest so much money/time to figure all 

this out. 

 

@Moonstar I'm currently testing 50% gb444/45% coconut wax/5% stearic in an 8 oz jar.  I am getting better results with wick stabilization and a more shallow melt pool.  I plan to test burn them by Monday.  I get nice smooth tops with this blend, (even after burning a few times) but there is a bit of a dip near the wick so I heat gun them the next day.  I'm testing with cd and rrd wicks.

[moonshine]

3 hours ago, Moonstar said:

Im glad I asked you the question about stecic acid . Can you please provide a link of  the right kind I need , that is of course if you have time  Thanks for clearing that up !

I would have ordered the wrong kind lol !

Palm and tallow stearic along with USA can be found at the candlemakers store 

Any of those would be good in soy 

[moonshine]

5 hours ago, moonshine said:

A CDN 8 could be a good balance if the 7 is too weak and if you find the RRD work better in 464 for throw try the 34 or 37 and see what happens 

 

Actually a 37 or 40 or even a 47....gotta find that balance of hit flame but keeping entire candle temperature under control and 464 I haven't used in years but I know it's way softer than most soy 

[birdcharm]

28 minutes ago, moonshine said:

Palm and tallow stearic along with USA can be found at the candlemakers store 

Any of those would be good in soy 

 

I've been curious about the universal additive with soy and if it is needed.  I've been pouring without any additives.  At first, I was adding a bit of palm stearic, but I don't know that it really did anything, so I quit, and don't mind because I'm on a personal "limit palm usage" plan.

 

For paraffin candles, I add both stearic acid (the candle type) with a very small amount of vybar, but I've never used the universal additive thinking that you don't need it if you've used the other two additives, which may be true, or maybe not, I've never been quite clear on that.  I believe vybar is a polymer, and I'm not sure if it has any affect on soy wax.

 

So now, here's my question regarding melt pools and scent throw.  I've always thought (could be wrong) that a softer wax may throw better than a harder one, is that true?  Do you think the removal of trans-fat from the soy is part of the throw problem?  What would happen if a little cocoa butter were added to the soy wax?

 

These may be dumb questions, but I'm fairly new to soy and I've been reading all of these stories, so trying to educate myself.  I am awaiting a new batch of GW464, although have 10+ pounds from the end of last year, so I'll be curious if there is a difference, probably will be considering what has been reported here.

 

[Moonstar]

22 minutes ago, birdcharm said:

 

I've been curious about the universal additive with soy and if it is needed.  I've been pouring without any additives.  At first, I was adding a bit of palm stearic, but I don't know that it really did anything, so I quit, and don't mind because I'm on a personal "limit palm usage" plan.

 

For paraffin candles, I add both stearic acid (the candle type) with a very small amount of vybar, but I've never used the universal additive thinking that you don't need it if you've used the other two additives, which may be true, or maybe not, I've never been quite clear on that.  I believe vybar is a polymer, and I'm not sure if it has any affect on soy wax.

 

So now, here's my question regarding melt pools and scent throw.  I've always thought (could be wrong) that a softer wax may throw better than a harder one, is that true?  Do you think the removal of trans-fat from the soy is part of the throw problem?  What would happen if a little cocoa butter were added to the soy wax?

 

These may be dumb questions, but I'm fairly new to soy and I've been reading all of these stories, so trying to educate myself.  I am awaiting a new batch of GW464, although have 10+ pounds from the end of last year, so I'll be curious if there is a difference, probably will be considering what has been reported here.

 

Where did you order your 464 from ? Im wondering if the ones reporting no changes in 464 or soy in general, have possibly have or received batches from the prior year ?

About 2 weeks ago I emailed Candlewick and asked if the 464 /soy users have been reporting any issues regarding wicking down - HT. They answered no . IDK ??? 

I would hate to think that a supplier would lie. Maybe none has reported any issues ??? Im confused  

[birdcharm]

1 hour ago, Moonstar said:

Where did you order your 464 from ? Im wondering if the ones reporting no changes in 464 or soy in general, have possibly have or received batches from the prior year ?

About 2 weeks ago I emailed Candlewick and asked if the 464 /soy users have been reporting any issues regarding wicking down - HT. They answered no . IDK ??? 

I would hate to think that a supplier would lie. Maybe none has reported any issues ??? Im confused  

 

I ordered it from Candlewic ... so I'll get to see/experience what you're all talking about.

 

[moonshine]

5 hours ago, birdcharm said:

 

I've been curious about the universal additive with soy and if it is needed.  I've been pouring without any additives.  At first, I was adding a bit of palm stearic, but I don't know that it really did anything, so I quit, and don't mind because I'm on a personal "limit palm usage" plan.

 

For paraffin candles, I add both stearic acid (the candle type) with a very small amount of vybar, but I've never used the universal additive thinking that you don't need it if you've used the other two additives, which may be true, or maybe not, I've never been quite clear on that.  I believe vybar is a polymer, and I'm not sure if it has any affect on soy wax.

 

So now, here's my question regarding melt pools and scent throw.  I've always thought (could be wrong) that a softer wax may throw better than a harder one, is that true?  Do you think the removal of trans-fat from the soy is part of the throw problem?  What would happen if a little cocoa butter were added to the soy wax?

 

These may be dumb questions, but I'm fairly new to soy and I've been reading all of these stories, so trying to educate myself.  I am awaiting a new batch of GW464, although have 10+ pounds from the end of last year, so I'll be curious if there is a difference, probably will be considering what has been reported here.

 

Bingo birdcharm And not dumb at all, very observant!

the removal of transfat seems to be all the issues here and what to add back in or how to wick for this new "new" is the million dollar question 

 

cocoa butter I'm not familiar with hopefully TT will chime in here but believe me when I say several of us are and have been trying many things for months 

 

now I don't know much about paraffin at all or additives for it but is a harder wax and I don't believe soy being softer throws better at all - I think it's a balance of what wax no matter the type with what wick 

I bought a couple Mccalls candles and they appear to be a molted paraffin, very hard wax and one is a double wick and one a single wick and within seconds of lighting these things I could smell them and I had to blow them out after about an hour they were so flipping strong - now I make a damn good soy candle if I do say so myself  😂 but they never have been that strong 

 

now with soy I am not sure that universal soy additive is needed for throw at all- I actually had better throw at first testings when I started with it years ago BUT it DOES help the appearance tremendously 

palm stearic will harden the wax but not sure that improves throw any either 

[moonshine]

5 hours ago, Moonstar said:

Where did you order your 464 from ? Im wondering if the ones reporting no changes in 464 or soy in general, have possibly have or received batches from the prior year ?

About 2 weeks ago I emailed Candlewick and asked if the 464 /soy users have been reporting any issues regarding wicking down - HT. They answered no . IDK ??? 

I would hate to think that a supplier would lie. Maybe none has reported any issues ??? Im confused  

Unfortunately they are all denying it and that cannot be true....they HAVE to be getting complaints by now, half this board is having issues now  and I chatted by text with CS awhile back and know people on here that inquired as well and they denied anything at all....🤷‍♀️

[TallTayl]

Cocoa butter is a fully saturated fat.

 

trans fats come from hydrogenation. Think crisco and margarine. 

 

I believe that the solution to the sickly weak soy throw is to work toward raising the melting pint of those soy waxes so a hotter wick can be safely used.

 

cocoa butter can help achieve that, im sure, but it is an expensive ingredient. And unless fully refined, you'll get some funky smells.

 

if you have them, and want to see about how different oils play with your soy, I'd give Shea, cocoa butter, palm, hydrogenated palm, mango, etc a try. Why not? 

 

If you want to steer away from Palm related ingredients, sunflower wax is really hard And gels oils at low usage levels. 

Candelila is super at gelling oils at much lower levels than beeswax. 

Carnauba is extremely hard. 

Castor wax is available at soapers choice. It is hydrogenated castor oil.

 

I have all all of these and should do an experiment set... these are all "botanical" waxes. Makes me wonder if those blended coconut waxes are using any of these?