My first blend of any wax. 464 and 4625

[Trappeur]

11 hours ago, Moonstar said:

Where did you order your 464 from ? Im wondering if the ones reporting no changes in 464 or soy in general, have possibly have or received batches from the prior year ?

About 2 weeks ago I emailed Candlewick and asked if the 464 /soy users have been reporting any issues regarding wicking down - HT. They answered no . IDK ??? 

I would hate to think that a supplier would lie. Maybe none has reported any issues ??? Im confused  

  My honest belief is that I agree no one has reported and if some have, why would they say yes there have been issues?

 

Trappeur

[Trappeur]

3 hours ago, TallTayl said:

Cocoa butter is a fully saturated fat.

 

trans fats come from hydrogenation. Think crisco and margarine. 

 

I believe that the solution to the sickly weak soy throw is to work toward raising the melting pint of those soy waxes so a hotter wick can be safely used.

 

cocoa butter can help achieve that, im sure, but it is an expensive ingredient. And unless fully refined, you'll get some funky smells.

 

if you have them, and want to see about how different oils play with your soy, I'd give Shea, cocoa butter, palm, hydrogenated palm, mango, etc a try. Why not? 

 

If you want to steer away from Palm related ingredients, sunflower wax is really hard And gels oils at low usage levels. 

Candelila is super at gelling oils at much lower levels than beeswax. 

Carnauba is extremely hard. 

Castor wax is available at soapers choice. It is hydrogenated castor oil.

 

I have all all of these and should do an experiment set... these are all "botanical" waxes. Makes me wonder if those blended coconut waxes are using any of these? 

I'm simply amazed at all the knowledge you have on candlemaking Tall Tayle?   I swear you must be a chemist.....

 

Trappeur

[Trappeur]

5 hours ago, moonshine said:

Unfortunately they are all denying it and that cannot be true....they HAVE to be getting complaints by now, half this board is having issues now  and I chatted by text with CS awhile back and know people on here that inquired as well and they denied anything at all....🤷‍♀️

I questioned Flaming a few weeks back about what has been happening and they said they have not received any reports.

 

My thinking is why would they admit yes and jeaopardize their sales?  

 

Trappeur

[Trappeur]

18 hours ago, moonshine said:

A CDN 8 could be a good balance if the 7 is too weak and if you find the RRD work better in 464 for throw try the 34 or 37 and see what happens 

 

Thankyou for that tip Moonshine....sounds perfect for a solution.

 

Now I burned it fully again all day.....and unbelievably the candle burned absolutely perfect....and the melt pool depth stayed a tad under 3/8 ...actually is more closer to `1/4:...... just perfect.  It's at the 1/2 way mark now. Still testing to the end.

Now scent throw that is another story...couldnt tell if because this is a light thowing oil - candy corn....it's the first tie I have used it.  Will have to do another tester.

[birdcharm]

12 hours ago, TallTayl said:

Cocoa butter is a fully saturated fat.

 

trans fats come from hydrogenation. Think crisco and margarine. 

 

I believe that the solution to the sickly weak soy throw is to work toward raising the melting pint of those soy waxes so a hotter wick can be safely used.

 

cocoa butter can help achieve that, im sure, but it is an expensive ingredient. And unless fully refined, you'll get some funky smells.

 

if you have them, and want to see about how different oils play with your soy, I'd give Shea, cocoa butter, palm, hydrogenated palm, mango, etc a try. Why not? 

 

If you want to steer away from Palm related ingredients, sunflower wax is really hard And gels oils at low usage levels. 

Candelila is super at gelling oils at much lower levels than beeswax. 

Carnauba is extremely hard. 

Castor wax is available at soapers choice. It is hydrogenated castor oil.

 

I have all all of these and should do an experiment set... these are all "botanical" waxes. Makes me wonder if those blended coconut waxes are using any of these? 

 

 

I hope you can do an experiment!  That would be interesting ... especially if it helps with some of the issues.  I was just thinking of cocoa butter off hand, but you're right, it's expensive, so maybe one of the less expensive natural butters.  My thought was that possibly the addition of a teaspoon or so per pound might "do something" to make it so that the wax would perform closer to how it used to if there is such drastic change in composition or performance.  If it worked, then maybe some of the wicking problems wouldn't be so bad. 

 

As I already mentioned, I'm awaiting a new order of GW464, so I'll have to see how that goes.  I'm still using cotton square braids, so it'll be interesting to see what happens. 

 

 

[aviking]

15 hours ago, moonshine said:

Unfortunately they are all denying it and that cannot be true....they HAVE to be getting complaints by now, half this board is having issues now  and I chatted by text with CS awhile back and know people on here that inquired as well and they denied anything at all....🤷‍♀️

I contacted CS about a lot of 464  with low HT last week. Here is their reply:

 

"I certainly understand your concerns. I would first like to address your questions regarding a faulty lot. Lot F is the lot for every case of 464 soy wax. This is what the manufacturer uses to distinguish the wax from the other waxes they produce. Every case of 464 will be from Lot F. The date and time stamp that follows is then the date and the specific time that a specific case of wax was produced. Typically, when there is a defective batch of wax we see multiple complaints and severe issues with cases manufactured on the same day and within the same timeframe. We have had not had any widespread defective batches of 464 since last year.

That being said, soy wax is a natural wax and can absolutely vary from batch to batch. These variations are unavoidable as there is no way to avoid the natural soy differences that come with different seasons, different amounts of rainfall, and even the area of the US that the soy was harvested from. This is one of the things that soy candle makers have had to adapt and adjust to as one of the difficulties of soy candle making."

 

Not very helpful.
 

[TallTayl]

Wow, at least an admission something was wrong at one time. 

 

This does not make make soy an attractive wax to venture into, does it? 

[Moonstar]

@TallTayl What about soy from American Soy Organics, say Millennium or their container wax. Or blends such as 6006 or 4630, do you think these have stayed the same 

or would they also have new issues such as HT and wicks ? It seems as if the only waxes that haven't had changes are paraffin + blend and palm wax ????

[Trappeur]

Got another question?

 

If I added a tiny amount of beeswax like say maybe 10% to 464 do you think that could help in scent making it stronger?

 

Also if I did like 10% would it make the 464 more rigid?  I'm trying to figure out another possible way to save my wicking to its present size instead of downsizing?

 

I have never ever blended anything...keep in mind for these questions I'm asking.

 

Or for that matter if I tried 4630 blended to 464 I have the same questions as above.

 

I know I can 't do a 50/50 that is for sure because it would be too expensive.

 

Trappeur

[TallTayl]

15 minutes ago, Moonstar said:

@TallTayl What about soy from American Soy Organics, say Millennium or their container wax. Or blends such as 6006 or 4630, do you think these have stayed the same 

or would they also have new issues such as HT and wicks ? It seems as if the only waxes that haven't had changes are paraffin + blend and palm wax ????

I don't know if they have changed. I tried millenium just this year for the first time. It has a strange feel to it, but it threw the coffee FO from ASO ok. I don't plan to go further with it only because I am achieving what I need through other blends using waxes, oils and additives I already use for bath and body products. My goal is to reduce the number of raw materials I need to stock. 

 

@Trappeur I would try percentages in a line blend to test. A line blend would have several tests of increasing percentages so you can compare side by side. Start at 1%, 2%, 5%, etc.  you might be able to adjust the burn well enough. Too much BW and the candle will shrink from the container. It might shrink so much as to rattle like the tins I am burning today. 

 

For the record, beeswax does not magically improve throw. All it does is change the blend qualities so it can reach a temp range where your wick can work well enough with your other variables.

 

When i read people just add a spoonful of coconut oil to improve throw, again, coconut oil does nothing unless the wax being burned needs to be tweaked in that direction to work with your wick and fragrance in that particular candle.... 

 

there is no magic ingredient to make a poorly performing candle work perfectly. It takes a little time to understand what all the ingredients added can do. Experimenting is definitely worth a shot though! I have learned an incredible amount this year by blending, burning, blending, burning, rinse repeat. 

[birdcharm]

3 hours ago, Trappeur said:

If I added a tiny amount of beeswax like say maybe 10% to 464 do you think that could help in scent making it stronger?  ...

 

I think that perhaps you might try the GW444 which has a higher fragrance load ... that might help with the strength of the throw.  It has a little higher melt point than the 464, so it takes a little longer to get going, but it can hold more scent.  As far as mostly everything else, the two waxes are about the same in regard to pouring, wicking, surface condition, and other characteristics.

 

 

[Moonstar]

46 minutes ago, birdcharm said:

 

I think that perhaps you might try the GW444 which has a higher fragrance load ... that might help with the strength of the throw.  It has a little higher melt point than the 464, so it takes a little longer to get going, but it can hold more scent.  As far as mostly everything else, the two waxes are about the same in regard to pouring, wicking, surface condition, and other characteristics.

 

 

Have you experienced the same issues everyone is reporting about their soy, wicking down + not as strong of a HT ? Have you recently bought 444 or are you using 

from an older stash of wax ? If your not experienceing any issues maybe I should just try 444 ??? 

[TallTayl]

I seriously don't think adding more scent is the  answer. Raise the melt point of that wax, balance that wi the right wick and you will save yourself a ton of money.

 

I burned a tea light here that filled my living room. Am burning another candle here with 5% that is killing me it is so strong. 

[moonshine]

Adding more FO is going to cause more problems - I suggest you try TT suggestion of getting the melt point up there higher 

[birdcharm]

2 hours ago, Moonstar said:

Have you experienced the same issues everyone is reporting about their soy, wicking down + not as strong of a HT ? Have you recently bought 444 or are you using 

from an older stash of wax ? If your not experienceing any issues maybe I should just try 444 ??? 

 

I haven't had any issues yet because I'm still using older stock, but that's going to change with a new order I've placed.  I switched from GW444, which has a higher fragrance load than the 464 because I was trying to see if I could achieve smoother tops and it has a lower melt point, so I figured the scent throw might be better without using as much scent. 

 

It seems that the 464 may be more popular than the 444, I bet some suppliers might still have some old stock of 444, who knows!  

 

[birdcharm]

Sorry if I've missed some info here, but has it been determined that beeswax does indeed mix well with GW464 without any issues?

[TallTayl]

The difference, from what I have researched, between 444 and 464 is the amount of usa. 444 uses more. 

[birdcharm]

That's interesting ... so it has more additive? 

 

The meltpoint of 444 is slighter higher, 120-125dF versus 115-120dF for the 464; and the f/o load is higher, at 9-11%.  The adhesion isn't quite as good, I think, if that even matters.

 

Edited October 16, 2017 by birdcharm

[TallTayl]

My eyeballs are all googly from reading tech pubs. 

 

Seems like many retail soy container waxes are nearly identical using USA to change burn characteristics. C3 is different with lecithin. That stuff really raises the burn temp! 

 

i do not see a reason to not try bw with 444. Nowhere in any literature have I seen what negative "thing" happens when 444 or 464 is mixed with it. 

[TallTayl]

You could also pick up some usa from the candle makes store or American soy organics and try adding a bit more to the 444. Or add some stearic. Each additive will raise the melt, with slightly different results.

 

Your goal is to balance the melt with the wick - you need enough energy from the wick to throw that scent into the air without over or under melting the wax. Different roads lead to Rome. 

 

 

[Moonstar]

35 minutes ago, TallTayl said:

You could also pick up some usa from the candle makes store or American soy organics and try adding a bit more to the 444. Or add some stearic. Each additive will raise the melt, with slightly different results.

 

Your goal is to balance the melt with the wick - you need enough energy from the wick to throw that scent into the air without over or under melting the wax. Different roads lead to Rome. 

 

 

I apologize if Ive already asked this question but which steric do you suggest, palm or steric acid ? Will they give different results ?  How much per pound of wax ?  What about 

palm container wax, can that be used to add to 464 ? 

[Moonstar]

55 minutes ago, birdcharm said:

 

I haven't had any issues yet because I'm still using older stock, but that's going to change with a new order I've placed.  I switched from GW444, which has a higher fragrance load than the 464 because I was trying to see if I could achieve smoother tops and it has a lower melt point, so I figured the scent throw might be better without using as much scent. 

 

It seems that the 464 may be more popular than the 444, I bet some suppliers might still have some old stock of 444, who knows!  

 

Thanks ! Funny I was thinking the same thing, some suppliers might still have old stock of 464 -415 or 444   . I guess its worth a shot to ask .

[TallTayl]

@Moonstar palm stearic and stearic are the same. 

 

One form of Stearic from candlemakers store is tallow based. Similar use but different origin. I did not test this one. 

 

Too much palm wax (gg) made the candle cool very ugly. I did not continue with palm container wax only because I decided to not go with extra single use ingredients. I use stearic for other products. 

 

My soy candles were burning well with 5% palm stearic. Mine neeed more stearic to begin throwing better, but I ran out of testing time before summer faire began. Then I got really burned out. 

 

I will be picking up once again as I get back into the shop more. Have been focused on beeswax lately and am still mad at soy 😜

[birdcharm]

2 hours ago, moonshine said:

Adding more FO is going to cause more problems - I suggest you try TT suggestion of getting the melt point up there higher 

 

Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting to add more f/o to the 464, but to possibly try the 444 which holds more scent. 

 

As for raising the melt point ... I've always been under the impression that a lower melt point candle can create scent throw easier while higher melt point waxes can hold more scent.  This is why I was attracted to the 464, as it has a lower melt point, so should not require as much scent.   I must be missing something.

 

 

[moonshine]

464 and 444 are both blended with soy additives - even though one supplier states they both have 2% added the 444 has a higher melt point - so they may be using different additives to achieve this idk....they both state up to a 10% fragrance load which doesn't always mean to use that as issues come into play with more FO and wicking 

before switching waxes try using additives to firm and slow that burn using a wick that will get that center hot enough to dispurse in the air without causing the entire candle to get to hot 

I am still sorting this all out myself but I use 415 and I can't get anywhere the throw as a hard as rock Mccalls candle so in saying a lower melt point wax is easier to create Scent throw....I am not seeing it myself 

paraffin is a firmer wax than soy and throws much better with half the FO load 

with your 444 try adding beeswax or stearic and wick up