Newbie expectations.

[Snuff Gear]

Hello all. Sorry for the long post. Hobbyist here with no desire to ever sell candles.

Went into a store, (aquarium store no less), about 6 weeks ago and the aroma, (Creme Brulee), from a burning candle, was awesome. Filled the whole store. I bought one and since it was in a very small jelly jar, it didn't last long. I eventually contacted the maker asking about a larger size. Unfortunately, they only made the small jars.

Ok, figured I'd do it myself. LOL! Placed an order at Peak for some 4625 paraffin, pillar mold, FO, wicks, etc.... Not knowing what I was doing, I threw together a 6" pillar. It burned like crazy with a lot of smoke, but the fragrance filled the house. Awesome really, and as long as I kept trimming the wick, the smoke was manageable.

Since that one was somewhat of a messy proposition, I ordered more supplies, including some Salsa jars and some 4627, (comfort blend), from CS, and an HTP wick sampler from Peak.

So far I have not been able to duplicate the BIG aroma similar to the pillar I initially threw together.

Currently testing these 2 and the results are disappointing.

08/28/11 Jar: Salsa – Candle Science

Test Candle – Creme Brulee

Wax: IGI 4627

Wax: 16oz. (1.5 ounce too much)

FO: Crème Brulee (Peak)

Dye: Maize chip (1)

Wick: HTP 105

FO & Dye added at 185. Stirred 1 ½ min.

Pour: 185

08-28-2011 Jar: Salsa – Candle Science

Test Candle – Mulberry

Wax: IGI 4627

Wax: 14.4oz. (1.5 ounce too much)

FO: Mulberry (Peak)

Dye: Cranberry chip (1)

Wick: HTP 105

FO & Dye added at 185. Stirred 1 ½ min.

Pour: 185

Both have a semi decent HT aroma within 5-6 feet of the candle and the room has some fragrance to it, but I think I was expecting more. CT was lame at best.

So, at this point, I'm really not sure what to expect. Should I be able to get big fragrance from a container, or is it going to be more subtle? Any advice/help would certainly be appreciated.

Thanks

Tom

[jonsie]

I'm not sure I can answer your questions, but did you mention up there how much FO you added? And how long did they sit before you burned them?

[HorseScentS]

I would stir the FO for at least 2 full minutes, with a heated wire whisk, while watching the sweep second hand of a clock. And Jonsie is right, the candles need to cure for at least 3 days or more to get the best HT. I don't know if Peak's Creme Brulee is a strong thrower or not, but I've heard Candle Science's is.

[debratant]

Tom, how much fo are you using? When I make a candle, lets say the same size salsa you have there, the jar will hold 16 oz of wax. I will typically use

8% fo load. 8% of 16oz is 1.28, I round up to 1.30. I then subtract that amount of wax. So into my pour pot goes 14.7oz of wax. I hope this makes sense.

When I first started making candles I could never understand why I wouldn't get a strong throw. I read something on here and only after that I started to subtract my oil

percentage from my wax weight did I get a kick ass throw. I don't think I was truely getting the right percentage correct. Too much wax to fo ratio. Now, less left over wax

I don't even know if any of that made any sense to anyone whatsoever LOL. I also would try a HTP 126 in that jar

Edited August 31, 2011 by debratant

[lilcountrymama]

I've used the 4627 for a couple years and its a great wax you should have no problem with ht. I mainly used zinc and cds in this wax depending on the fo. Letting them sit will really help with the ht. And I only ever had to use 1oz pp if it doesn't throw well with 1oz I would consider finding a different fo to use this wax is nothing like soy and should give you great results

[Stella1952]

I would stir the FO for at least 2 full minutes, with a heated wire whisk, while watching the sweep second hand of a clock.

Is that standing on one leg or two? Horsescents, you are a HOOT!!!

Personally, I like to chant. "i need the scent, I need the scent" while I stir... :laugh2:

My apologies to the OP. I'm hoping that someone who uses this wax will help you with your choice of wick selection and size. I further hope that you have given your nose some time between standing over the hot wax, pouring, and burning the candle. The dreaded candle nose may be an issue...

Edited August 31, 2011 by Stella1952

[EricofAZ]

I use 4625 in pillars and like it. It holds a decent amount of wax and sometimes I go a bit higher than 9 percent.

I don't know the size of your pillar, but a 3"x4 1/2" is what I use and I think an HTP 105 would be a bit large for that in general unless you need to upwick for some reason. I use a cotton core. 44-32-18 or sometimes if I have to upwick, a 60-44-18.

The creme brulee is often stronger than the mulberry. Not all scents are the same strength. Some throw better and that may be part of what you are noticing.

As for the container, I never used a salsa jar. Jar shape makes a pretty big difference in how strong a candle throws. Some that have wider diameters for the wax pool (and only slightly narrower openings) are my favorites. The wider the melt pool is better for hot throw and the ability to hold in a little heat lets me use a slightly smaller wick (so less sooting).

Anyway, addicting, isn't it? Glad you are enjoying candle making.

[rjdaines]

4625 makes a great pillar candle, for a 3" diameter I use an LX-22 wick. Trimming of the wick is necessary between each burn as is a little hugging (reshaping during the burn). I haven't tried a HTP wick with that wax.

[robertgibbens]

4630 does NOT need to sit 3 days for good hot throw! Stirring 2 minutes?? Your probably stirring all the scent out of the wax before you pour it. When pouring 1 lb of wax, I stir the scent and color for about 10 seconds. It's as fully mixed as it can be in that time and the CT and HT (using 4630) is fantastic immediately.

[EricofAZ]

Well, I respectfully disagree about the stirring. The FO needs to bond and a couple of minutes of stirring is recommended pretty much universally. We had another thread on overstirring and I think it is possible to do that, but 2 minutes is not going to cause unnecessary scent loss.

As for curing, I'm sure that you can do a test burn at two or three days, but there are some minor changes that take place beyond that time. A test burn to see if the wick is right is probably fine at that time. I think to really know how the HT is, waiting longer, like a week, gives the wax a chance to harden and chemical reactions to stabilize a bit.

[Snuff Gear]

Thanks for all the replies. Yes, I forgot to add how much FO. I used 1 oz. in each of the 2 test candles.

@debratant: Good suggestion.

I am aware of the 'candle nose' phenomena and take steps to minimize this when evaluating.

Both candles setup for 48 hrs before trying.

105's were burned for 2 hrs., then for 6 hrs. No difference that I could discern.

Pulling the 105's this morning and replacing with 126's. Didn't get a full melt pool with the 105's.

@lilcountrymama: I guess my question remains. What are 'Great Results'?

With all the research I've been doing here, I'm beginning to understand the technical aspects, but what I still don't have a handle on is the finished product expectations. Should I always expect AWESOME as opposed to, gee that's kind of nice? Room filling aroma, or house filling? Subtle, or 'in your face' aroma? etc......

Thanks again. Lot's of friendly and helpful people here. It is appreciated.

Tom

Edited August 31, 2011 by Snuff Gear

[jackbenimble]

I don't always get an "in your face" HT out of a couple of my scents. They are more subtle and are very nice. I have had comments from people that tell me they like that. So IMO no not every FO is going to give you an amazing "in your face" scent but they should at least give you enough that you can walk into that room and be able to smell something.(Depending on your size candle)

I only do a 10oz jar and let my customers know that they should not expect it to fill one of these marathon sized family rooms with 20ft ceilings. If it does great, but it most likely won't. HTH

[rjdaines]

Don't jump from HTP 105 to HTP 126, do a Internet search for the Atkins and Peace Wick site and look at the rates of consumption and flame height. HTP 126 is at the top, you'd be better off trying HTP 1212 or HTP 1312. Going right to HTP-126 will not make you happy.

Thanks for all the replies. Yes, I forgot to add how much FO. I used 1 oz. in each of the 2 test candles.

@debratant: Good suggestion.

I am aware of the 'candle nose' phenomena and take steps to minimize this when evaluating.

Both candles setup for 48 hrs before trying.

105's were burned for 2 hrs., then for 6 hrs. No difference that I could discern.

Pulling the 105's this morning and replacing with 126's. Didn't get a full melt pool with the 105's.

@lilcountrymama: I guess my question remains. What are 'Great Results'?

With all the research I've been doing here, I'm beginning to understand the technical aspects, but what I still don't have a handle on is the finished product expectations. Should I always expect AWESOME as opposed to, gee that's kind of nice? Room filling aroma, or house filling? Subtle, or 'in your face' aroma? etc......

Thanks again. Lot's of friendly and helpful people here. It is appreciated.

Tom

[chuck_35550]

I think we all start out with the same intentions of duplicating a great fragrance. There are so many different Creme Brulees' in the world. My favorite is ky (Aroma Haven now carries the Kentucky version) and some others have a chocolate in the background and yet others are more like custard and cinnamon with a crunchy sugary note. See what I mean? Peaks is always good but they may not carry the one you want. You cannot burn off or mix off fragrance oil. You can't incorporate or blend fragrance oil but you can agitate or stir it into a suspension. The wax begins to harden and traps the fragrance oil in the crystal formation that occurs. IMHO. Use the search tool and type in the word and read the posts and then buy what sounds like the one you want in a tester size (1-2 oz) and go from there and sin no more. HTH

Steve

[HorseScentS]

Tom, how much fo are you using? When I make a candle, lets say the same size salsa you have there, the jar will hold 16 oz of wax. I will typically use

8% fo load. 8% of 16oz is 1.28, I round up to 1.30. I then subtract that amount of wax. So into my pour pot goes 14.7oz of wax. I hope this makes sense.

When I first started making candles I could never understand why I wouldn't get a strong throw. I read something on here and only after that I started to subtract my oil

percentage from my wax weight did I get a kick ass throw. I don't think I was truely getting the right percentage correct. Too much wax to fo ratio. Now, less left over wax

I don't even know if any of that made any sense to anyone whatsoever LOL. I also would try a HTP 126 in that jar

If I'm not mistaken (and I'm not good at math, so I could be wrong here) I think that when you subtract the wax you're increasing your percentage of FO, because 1.30 of FO poured into 16 oz of wax is a lower percentage of FO than 1.30 of FO poured into 14.7 oz of FO. Basically, you're getting a better HT because you increased the percentage of FO to wax. You're probably using at least 9%.

[HorseScentS]

Is that standing on one leg or two? Horsescents, you are a HOOT!!!

Personally, I like to chant. "i need the scent, I need the scent" while I stir... :laugh2:

Well, first I go out to the barn at 3:00 AM and turn all the chickens around to face the east. :laugh2:

[HorseScentS]

4630 does NOT need to sit 3 days for good hot throw! Stirring 2 minutes?? Your probably stirring all the scent out of the wax before you pour it. When pouring 1 lb of wax, I stir the scent and color for about 10 seconds. It's as fully mixed as it can be in that time and the CT and HT (using 4630) is fantastic immediately.

All the official candle making videos and instructions say to stir thoroughly for 2 minutes, and a local chandler who owned a shop here for 10 years told me to do the same. Many chandlers keep stirring between pouring each jar, too. On my first batch I didn't stir long enough or hard enough and got zero HT, so when I changed to more stirring I got a great HT. I don't understand how you're getting such a good HT by stirring for 10 seconds. Someone even posted about being able to see the FO through a glass pour pot and it wasn't mixing with the wax until after much stirring. I am baffled!!! Who's FOs do you use? Could they be easier to mix?

[HorseScentS]

Thanks for all the replies. Yes, I forgot to add how much FO. I used 1 oz. in each of the 2 test candles.

@debratant: Good suggestion.

I am aware of the 'candle nose' phenomena and take steps to minimize this when evaluating.

Both candles setup for 48 hrs before trying.

105's were burned for 2 hrs., then for 6 hrs. No difference that I could discern.

Pulling the 105's this morning and replacing with 126's. Didn't get a full melt pool with the 105's.

@lilcountrymama: I guess my question remains. What are 'Great Results'?

With all the research I've been doing here, I'm beginning to understand the technical aspects, but what I still don't have a handle on is the finished product expectations. Should I always expect AWESOME as opposed to, gee that's kind of nice? Room filling aroma, or house filling? Subtle, or 'in your face' aroma? etc......

Thanks again. Lot's of friendly and helpful people here. It is appreciated.

Tom

There are a few on here who swear by using only 1 oz of FO per pound of wax, but most use at least 8% or 9%. I can't get any HT only using 1 oz per pound. Sometimes I think everyone is secretly using 12% but they don't want anyone else to know that, so they say they use 6%. :laugh2:

[Snuff Gear]

@chuck: I understand what you're saying, but it's not a really question of different Creme Brulees', but more of a question of just not enough room/s filling fragrance. The Peak Creme Brulee smelled great if you were standing within a few feet of the candle. Walk 10 feet away, and it wasn't noticeable. (same problem with all the FO's I've tried to date.) Maybe my expectations are just to high.

Scientific data regarding mixing FO's and hot wax would be an interesting read. Know of any?

Testing continues......

Thanks

Tom

Edited August 31, 2011 by Snuff Gear

[HorseScentS]

You cannot burn off or mix off fragrance oil. You can't incorporate or blend fragrance oil but you can agitate or stir it into a suspension. The wax begins to harden and traps the fragrance oil in the crystal formation that occurs. HTH

Steve

Oh! :yay:That is the most brilliant explanation I've read so far! Thank you so much!

Edited August 31, 2011 by HorsescentS

[LadyJo]

I started out stirring for two minutes.... would set the timer on my microwave. Then I got tired of stirring for so long so I stopped. Now I put the fragrance oil in and stir for probably 10 or 15 seconds. I will usually (but not always) stir again about half way through the cooling process before I pour. I haven't noticed any difference in the great throw from when I stirred for two full minutes and now stirring for 10-15 seconds.

Jo

[robertgibbens]

I understand about your disagreeing with my stirring method. But, of course, everyone used to think the world was flat and that at some point you'd drop off the world to your death. Just because everyone thinks its true, doesn't make it true. You're welcome to waste your time and some of your evaporating scent on stirring 12 minutes. Perhaps a better method would be to do a side by side comparison (as I have done several times). Stir one pot for 10 seconds and another for 2 minutes. Pour and test the HT and CT. 2 minutes is excessive.

[HorseScentS]

I understand about your disagreeing with my stirring method. But, of course, everyone used to think the world was flat and that at some point you'd drop off the world to your death. Just because everyone thinks its true, doesn't make it true. You're welcome to waste your time and some of your evaporating scent on stirring 12 minutes. Perhaps a better method would be to do a side by side comparison (as I have done several times). Stir one pot for 10 seconds and another for 2 minutes. Pour and test the HT and CT. 2 minutes is excessive.

I did do a comparison, which is why I know that my first batch of candles had zero HT when burning, but decent HT on the warmer, because I did not stir long enough to incorporate the FO with the wax, only about 1 minute. My second batch of candles had a GREAT HT when burning because I stirred strongly for at least 2 minutes or more, maybe even three. I do not believe the FO evaporates out of the wax that easily. But, if your candles are satisfactory to you, that's good!

[TallTayl]

Well, first I go out to the barn at 3:00 AM and turn all the chickens around to face the east. :laugh2:

So THAT'S been my problem all along. All of my girls face WEST!

Boy will they ever be ticked at me when I turn them to face the container candle Goddess.

[rjdaines]

I think this theory is more right than wrong but if the wax was just an inert matrix for suspending the FO the all waxes would have the same HT, which is not the case. The must be additional chemistry involve like binding.

I think we all start out with the same intentions of duplicating a great fragrance. There are so many different Creme Brulees' in the world. My favorite is ky (Aroma Haven now carries the Kentucky version) and some others have a chocolate in the background and yet others are more like custard and cinnamon with a crunchy sugary note. See what I mean? Peaks is always good but they may not carry the one you want. You cannot burn off or mix off fragrance oil. You can't incorporate or blend fragrance oil but you can agitate or stir it into a suspension. The wax begins to harden and traps the fragrance oil in the crystal formation that occurs. IMHO. Use the search tool and type in the word and read the posts and then buy what sounds like the one you want in a tester size (1-2 oz) and go from there and sin no more. HTH

Steve