"environmentally friendly" long read...

[EnvyCandles]

OK, no arguments! I have soy chandlers in my area saying that paraffin candles cause cancer and soot. I have paraffin chandlers around here saying they use all natural FO in their candles. I use paraffin wax. I eat soy on a daily basis (vegetarian)- it is my understanding that soybeans are specifically grown and then harvested to make soy wax. It is also my understanding that paraffin wax is a petro by product that is refined and made suitable for candlemaking, etc... If someone wants a soy candle, they can go to the other chandlers and but it.

Aside from the fact that one wax is made from 'oil' and the other is made from 'soybeans', I am having a difficult time understanding some things. Paraffin wax seems to be the ultimate recycling... taking something that would be disposed of (oil) and making it something usable (wax that when burned, pretty much gets rid of itself). Soy wax seems to be made specifically for the purpose of making candles (please correct me if I am wrong)- this does not seem like it is doing anything good for Mother Nature.

Soy is a major allergen (listed on food labels) and one client of mine told me she cannot be in the same room with a soy candle as she cannot breathe; also mentioned how soy introduced into a system increases estrogen production which is linked to cancer (I know, I know, what ISN'T linked to cancer!), particularly in men.

The farmers' market near me has a thing that soy candles are better than paraffin, but I do not know if that is necessarily true. We use glass made in the US from a local supplier and NO LEAD WICKS LOL!!!

Thoughts?!?:tiptoe:

[jluper7297]

I really have no input here since I am so new to candle making.... However, I work in the medical field and I often have patients that have soy allergies. True allergies should be taken very serioously. Also, as a side note, if you ever are admitted into the hospital please do not tell them you have a 'allergy' when it is really just a dislike. It causes a whole chain of events that staff has to go through. LOL

Also, on the humorous side... when reading your post when I got to the part about estrogen production and men, I got a visual of men with boobs sniffing candles.

[JanetsCandles]

I've got a client allergic to both soy and palm both. Palm is questionable, especially on where it's from. My understanding of it is that it comes from refined palm oil, and there's deforestation concerns as well. Most of the prejudice against paraffin seems to come from the fact that it is an oil based product. Oil by nature is a natural product itself, but it takes a very long time for it to renew. Soy is supposed to be completely renewable, and in a short time frame, so it's viewed by many folks as the least "evil" of all of the waxes. But I do agree with you. The allergy can be very dangerous for some folks. Beeswax is another biproduct, but can cause some pretty bad allergies as well (I discovered this one personally. Let me say hives are not my idea of fun...)

I do wonder on that vein if those of us that use both paraffin and soy in our work, if we should be including the "manufactured in the same facility as soy products" disclaimer. Would there be any chance of cross over?

[Sharon in KY]

Why do you give a shit.. Make your own product and the customers will choose what they like. If your blaming what others say about paraffin, then you need to let it roll.

[Scented]

Why do you give a shit.. Make your own product and the customers will choose what they like. If your blaming what others say about paraffin, then you need to let it roll.

Well I give a shit, because the neverending cycle of false information lol. My hairdresser asked me the other day about the cancer and paraffin thing as it was starting to freak her out and told me it was coming from someone locally who makes those ear candle things. I told her to tell her supplier she's full of shit and should not be spreading the bs around. Then I told her I'd stop buying from someone who isn't truthful in their sales either.

You can make your product and talk only of your product while others find some avenue to try to sell theirs through false advertising and you can do it in a way that does not put down your competition and their "type" of wax or business while setting the public straight too.

[JanetsCandles]

Well I give a shit, because the neverending cycle of false information lol. My hairdresser asked me the other day about the cancer and paraffin thing as it was starting to freak her out and told me it was coming from someone locally who makes those ear candle things. I told her to tell her supplier she's full of shit and should not be spreading the bs around. Then I told her I'd stop buying from someone who isn't truthful in their sales either.

You can make your product and talk only of your product while others find some avenue to try to sell theirs through false advertising and you can do it in a way that does not put down your competition and their "type" of wax or business while setting the public straight too.

Quite frankly, I agree 100%. There are much better ways to get sales than spreading rumors, especially those that are unproven or just slandering another group.

[EricofAZ]

Well, there are some medical journal articles on paraffin and carcinogenics. I have access to a good medical library so in time, maybe I can get this on my research list.

[spark-me-up]

I'm hearing the same thing a LOT over here in Oz. Seems the Trend, if you are "Genuinely" eco friendly, is to only burn Soy Candles.

All waxes have their good & bad points, right?

I'm putting it down to a "new" way of "spinning" your product.

If you are happy making sales by scaring the beguck out of your customers, well good for you! (well no, really, shame on you =)

Personally, I don't want any part of it.

I have my facts as straight as I can get 'em, so if anyone wants to know, I've got the goods to tell them WITHOUT scare tactics.

@EnvyCandles, what ISN'T linked to cancer these days? True dat!

We're dropping like flies because of our poor nutrition & resultant ratty health/ immune systems... but that's another story

[EnvyCandles]

Why do you give a shit.. Make your own product and the customers will choose what they like. If your blaming what others say about paraffin, then you need to let it roll.

The reason I care is because my business is important to me; additionally, if my customers have questions I like to be able to answer them. If you do not have anything(helpful) to add to this thread, please feel free to bypass it. Nasty comments are not welcome. I see you use soy, maybe this thread made you uncomfortable? LOL

Just opening a thread for discussion... I am not blaming anyone for anything. Clearly you don't give a shit, but many of us do care about these issues.

[rjdaines]

Well, there are some medical journal articles on paraffin and carcinogenics. I have access to a good medical library so in time, maybe I can get this on my research list.

Hey Eric, while you are researching check for an analysis of soy too.

[rjdaines]

It is really hard to determine if something or some process is "Green, environmentally friendly or sustainable". All aspects of the growth or harvesting of the product and the processing of it need to be looked at. I seem to recall that there are many examples of recycling that, in the end, prove to use more energy and use more toxic chemical the the production of virgin material (paper I believe was one example). There was a recent article regarding products that are biodegradable and how the release their CO2 load must more quickly that a slower decomposition rate. Now we have a deadly E. coli outbreak in Germany that may be traced back to an Organic farm. My point is, everything has consequences and that what might appear to be green in some aspect is not in another. As far a soy is concerned, soy is a food, people rely on it. If acreage is used for soy production that doesn't get used for food then that acreage goes elsewhere, which is South America. Demand for soy is so large that land (read rainforest) is being cleared for soy production. So even though we may by US produced soy, the unintended consequence destruction of more land elsewhere. One can even look a paraffin as being more ecologically friendly as you just pump the raw materials from the ground, no land used, no fertilizers, no pesticides, to depletion of ground water, no loss of top soil for tilling and soon. Farming is inherently not an eco-friendly activity.

About all I would claim on a candle is the percentage of soy used and the source of the soy. Any other claims can be argued. The fact that candles burn and release CO2 makes them anything but eco-friendly but we enjoy them and, in some cases, make money from their sale but selling them as a green and sustainable production is open to debate.

[pixie]

Personally, I have never gotten wrapped up in whole soy vs. paraffin thing. I just dont have the time or the energy. I make what I like. period. If someone doesn't care for what Im offering, then pls move along and go somewhere else.

Ive had someone bash me for making palm candles, saying how palm harvesting is destroying the rain forest. Pooey on them. I love palm candles and will continue to make them because they appeal to me

.

Personally I think paraffin is a environmentally better choice than soy. Paraffin is a wonderful way to recycle a byproduct that is already there. I see the soy industry as a modern day gestapo and I think this whole "helping the american farmer" is such a farce and load of BS. If anything, the soy industry bullies and strong-arms the american farmer. But I still make soy candles. Why? Because I prefer the way they smell over paraffin ones and I will continue to make soy candles as long as they are pleasing to me.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, make what you are passionate about. You will find plenty of people that like the same thing you like. Dont put your energy into trying to please everyone, it just aint gonna happen.

[NaturallyTru]

It is really hard to determine if something or some process is "Green, environmentally friendly or sustainable". All aspects of the growth or harvesting of the product and the processing of it need to be looked at. I seem to recall that there are many examples of recycling that, in the end, prove to use more energy and use more toxic chemical the the production of virgin material (paper I believe was one example). There was a recent article regarding products that are biodegradable and how the release their CO2 load must more quickly that a slower decomposition rate. Now we have a deadly E. coli outbreak in Germany that may be traced back to an Organic farm. My point is, everything has consequences and that what might appear to be green in some aspect is not in another. As far a soy is concerned, soy is a food, people rely on it. If acreage is used for soy production that doesn't get used for food then that acreage goes elsewhere, which is South America. Demand for soy is so large that land (read rainforest) is being cleared for soy production. So even though we may by US produced soy, the unintended consequence destruction of more land elsewhere. One can even look a paraffin as being more ecologically friendly as you just pump the raw materials from the ground, no land used, no fertilizers, no pesticides, to depletion of ground water, no loss of top soil for tilling and soon. Farming is inherently not an eco-friendly activity.

About all I would claim on a candle is the percentage of soy used and the source of the soy. Any other claims can be argued. The fact that candles burn and release CO2 makes them anything but eco-friendly but we enjoy them and, in some cases, make money from their sale but selling them as a green and sustainable production is open to debate.

Thank you for posting this. I really like these thoughts.

[Sharon in KY]

If you do not have anything(helpful) to add to this thread, please feel free to bypass it. Nasty comments are not welcome. I see you use soy, maybe this thread made you uncomfortable? LOL

I should have passed...

I'm saying, you can't stop them so why make yourself sick over it. I make soy cause I like it. I'm sure that's why you make the candles you do.

setting the public straight

Why don't you make a LAW so anyone making a false statement about soy will be stoned???

[NaturallyTru]

The reason I care is because my business is important to me; additionally, if my customers have questions I like to be able to answer them. If you do not have anything(helpful) to add to this thread, please feel free to bypass it. Nasty comments are not welcome. I see you use soy, maybe this thread made you uncomfortable? LOL

Just opening a thread for discussion... I am not blaming anyone for anything. Clearly you don't give a shit, but many of us do care about these issues.

I really don't think it was meant it to come across as nasty.

[NaturallyTru]

I make soy because I it is easy for me to work with, cleans up so well, my customers crave them and the industry keeps Americans working. Ok...Mmostly because it is the only self employment business that has done well for me...

Edited June 6, 2011 by NaturallyTru

[Stella1952]

Well I give a shit, because the neverending cycle of false information

Hear, hear!!! Ditto and "whut she said."

PLEASE read the following discussion regarding "all natural" candles... you may find it enlightening.

http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?98552-Who-makes-a-true-All-Natural-Candle&p=907712#post907712

Make good quality products and tell the simple truth about them!

I'm saying, you can't stop them so why make yourself sick over it. I make soy cause I like it.

Me, too, Sharon. That's a good enough reason for me. I am weary of the lying and the ignorance, too, and I still try to fight it, but it does become tiresome. A friend once sarcastically remarked: "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story." In the end, one has to shrug and realize that people (customers and sellers) are gonna do and believe what they want to and that, honestly, most don't give a sh*t. You do what you can do and make a peace with the rest or you go nutz.

The truth of the matter is that consumers and small manufacturers alike are butt-ignorant on the subject of "eco-friendly", "all-natural," "organic" and other greenwashed marketing hype. Some unscrupulous sellers will say anything to get ignorant customers to buy their products. There will always be lying opportunists like that selling stuff and there will always be idiots ready to buy into anything without understanding the hype behind it. A hearty "Caveat emptor" to all.

Concentrate on making the best quality product that you can and educating yourself (and hopefully, your customers) with truth in marketing. That's all you can do.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Stella1952

[EnvyCandles]

If you do not have anything(helpful) to add to this thread, please feel free to bypass it. Nasty comments are not welcome. I see you use soy, maybe this thread made you uncomfortable? LOL

I should have passed...

I'm saying, you can't stop them so why make yourself sick over it. I make soy cause I like it. I'm sure that's why you make the candles you do.

I assume then, that you do not think that your response was rude... I ask for input and your response is, "why do you give a shit..."

This is not helpful, and is rude where I come from (and people say people in NY are rude!)...

I eat soy because I like it... I use paraffin because I like it.

I do not make myself sick over any of this. If your response is to answer "why do you give a shit..." to a post because you don't care, please keep in mind that other people post new threads because they are looking for helpful answers.

My point of this thread to hear ideas from others. I am not a petroleum specialist, not a chemist either. It just seems to me that taking something that would otherwise be thrown away and reusing it is the veryidea of recycling. I wonder why a lot of 'green' people don't consider paraffin (or similar) to be environmentally friendly.

FIRST SENTENCE OF MY POST: OK, no arguments!

Just because someone uses natural ingredients for their product does not mean that their product is in fact, natural, or not harmful. I am not disputing this. Just looking for facts when the public asks questions. Like how the local farmers' market feels soy candles are the environmentally friendly ones... (don't you know, soy is the new black? lol)

[Stella1952]

FIRST SENTENCE OF MY POST: OK, no arguments!

So let it go. You may not realize how many, many times this subject has been discussed here... Sometimes people give abrupt answers which may seem rude, but simply cut to the chase... Searching the forums for previous discussion can offer many more opinions.

When the public asks, tell them the truth: soy candles are no more "eco-friendly" than are paraffin. ALL candles have a HUGE carbon footprint. If someone wishes to be environmentally correct, they should not burn anything.

it is my understanding that soybeans are specifically grown and then harvested to make soy wax

That's roadapples. Field soybeans (98% of which are from GMO "RoundUp Ready stock) are grown to produce oil. The oil is chemically separated with hexane. It's then hydrogenated to make shortening, or super hydrogenated to make wax. Other additives are used depending on the application.

Proteins are what allergic people react to in substances. There are no proteins in refined oils.

As for the soy products you eat - I hope they are USDA Certified organic and NOT from GMO or "RoundUp Ready" stock.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Monsanto_and_the_Roundup_Ready_Controversy

http://www.ucsusa.org/food_and_agriculture/science_and_impacts/impacts_genetic_engineering/roundup-ready-soybeans.html

Edited June 6, 2011 by Stella1952

[Candybee]

As long as I have been making candles I have heard and read the soy vs. paraffin drivel so much it makes me want to roll my eyes and think here we go again. Honestly, the best thing you can do for your candle biz is to learn all you can about your wax and try to seperate the truth from the BS.

Any candle you burn will produce soot! The idea that soy does not do this is simply rediculous. On top of that any burning wick will produce carcinogens but the amount from a single burning candle is not going to make you get cancer. Its far more dangerous to smoke cigarettes or lay out in the sun or eat french fries all the time then burning a candle.

One thing I do know is that those I see that tout their candles as all natural and the other guys causes cancer don't last long in this business. I am convinced that if you don't take the time to really learn about your wax and waxes in general you won't last in the candle biz. It is also bad business to trash talk other candle makers because of the wax they use. Word gets around and customers get tired of it too. Plus I would be careful to never underestimate what your customer knows about wax and fragrances. So if you state a 'fact' about your wax or another you better know what you are talking about because a customer may and will call you out on it.

Its very important to me to make a safe candle using whatever wax I have chosen. This is what I focus on-- not the drivel I hear about this wax is better than that wax. I understand Sharon's comments because I know she has heard it all before and gets tired of it like I do. Personally I didn't take her comments as rude but rather reflective of all the BS we have heard and had to endure over the years on the subject.

But I also think its important and relative to periodically discuss wax facts vs. myths as new candlemakers may not know what's truth vs. science fiction.

[EnvyCandles]

As for the soy products you eat - I hope they are USDA Certified organic and NOT from GMO or "RoundUp Ready" stock.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Monsanto_and_the_Roundup_Ready_Controversy

http://www.ucsusa.org/food_and_agriculture/science_and_impacts/impacts_genetic_engineering/roundup-ready-soybeans.html

Thanks for the links. Never put a thought into the soy (or where it is from) that I eat, but interesting info... :highfive:

[Scented]

I didn't take Sharon's comment as rude at all. Honestly, she's right, but you have to live through all of these debates about these waxes to reach that point. Things just materialize as gospel, and a lot of stuff does, from uneducated and paranoid folk trying to make a buck. I know I give a hoot about it and I know I'm fighting a losing battle trying to keep the public educated. I'll still do it, because I'm not bashing anything. I still give out information sheets if necessary with links to educate themselves on the NCA site. I don't fuss about other people until they pitch a tent next to me, keep the lids on their containers and take credit for the smell coming out of my tent or tell their customers that the bubble gum candle is made with essential oil. It's probably why I stay in production and not sales, because I tend to scoff somewhere between a whisper and my normal voice when I hear that crap. Anyway, I think I strayed. I still say focus on your product and how it performs and don't worry about what Jack and Jill are doing, because they will fall down that hill eventually.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Scented

[Stella1952]

tell their customers that the bubble gum candle is made with essential oil

roflmao:laugh2::laugh2:GOTTA love it!!!

[EricofAZ]

Everybody should use GB 402, kosher certified soy. Nothing else. And it should have catnip EO in it. - Einstein

[coconut]

All wax has an original vegetable base including paraffin, where the vegetable base is millions of years old. Food for thought.