Problems with color for Cinnamon Stick.....FROST!

[Holly]

Hi,

I like to make my cinnamon stick candles a deep red. However, I am getting BAD frosting with this combination. I may post a picture later. What color do you color your cinnamon candles? Actually, a cinnamon stick color is brown but red is so pretty for this time of year. I have so many candles already that have the brown tone. Any suggestions?

Note: I seem to get worse frosting in the tureens with this combo. I don't usually make them in the tureens -- a friend requested them. It could be that the environment is different right now compared to when I last poured a test one in a vase jar and it does not have anything to do with the tureen jar. I am not sure what is actually making it worse.

[Carriegsxr6]

it may be the jars then. try preheating your jars.

[Holly]

it may be the jars then. try preheating your jars.

Hey Carrie,

I was just about ready to PM you to see how these kind of colors do for you. You read my mind. I did preheat my jars. The strange thing is with the two that I made a mistake on the color (wrong tone of red) one had more frost than the other and it was from the same batch -- made 18 oz. of wax with FO and dye and poured it in two jars. Really weird. Both jars should have been the same temp. The other two I made that had more of the color my friend likes, frosted but not quite as bad as one of the other deaper colored ones and the frost has a different look.

You know, I may try the dye chips. I hate using them but maybe for these dark colors it would be better than the liquid. I even tried Pryme and it is not a lot better except for the darker browns. I may even try soy chips. I am hanging in there. Most of the lighter colors turn out beautiful, but some of these darker ones have a little more frost than I am comfortable with showing to the public. I am determined to get this right or at least to where I am comfortable with!

Thanks Carrie.

[Marilyn]

I have been trying BCN powder dyes because of frosting issues and so far they are really good. But then it has only been a week. I wonder if the frosting will start after a while.......:tiptoe:

[Jeana]

I tried candlescience liquid dye recently. Man they really stink in the bottle but they are super concentrated(you don't smell the color in the candle). I colored a 5 oz container with only 3 drops of their magenta, it is a beautiful deep color, it had better glass adhesion than the other colors I was testing (that took over 10 drops to make a darker shade) This tester did not have a scrap of frosting even after burning. It was also far darker with the 3 drops than the other cranberry color that I used about 15 drops.

These candles are now about 3weeks old. So I don't think it will frost later.

This was my first test with these dyes, more are coming up. But they may be worth looking into for you.

[topofmurrayhill]

I have been trying BCN powder dyes because of frosting issues and so far they are really good. But then it has only been a week. I wonder if the frosting will start after a while.......:tiptoe:

You don't have any difficulty dissolving the dyes? Have you tried the red yet? I've only experimented with the Pourette powders and it wasn't a totally satisfying experience.

[Marilyn]

I've been pouring just a small amount of the wax into the pouring pot and mixing the powder in that at fairly high temp. Then I pour the rest of the wax in the pot. Seems to be working pretty good. I do get nice colors. I've been using 2 smidgen-size spoons to a pound. My scale doesn't weigh grams very well. I got the 3 basic colors: red, yellow and blue and have used them all either separately or mixed.

edit to say: I had my pouring pot in the oven at low temp. waiting for my wax to melt, so I decided to put the powder in the "hot" pot. It warmed up the dye so that when I poured the wax in it was ready to dissolve! Worked wonderfully!!

[topofmurrayhill]

If you aren't getting little dots of color or sediment, I have to give those Pro Powders a try.

[Henryk]

Holly - I'm surprised you mentioned that about Pryme dyes - I haven't tried them but read a lot of good things about them.

I second the liquid magenta dye from CS that Jeana mentioned. The name is a little misleading - its not a "hot pink" magenta.

I was working on a color last week for a particular FO so I used 4 drops of it in about 7 ounces of CBA2. It was very dark - good color when tested, but I wanted more of a cranberry/wine color for the FO (WYW's Mulled Cider). So, I added 1/2 chip of CS's Purple and 2 extremely small droplet-sized "flakes" of BCN's "Pitch Black" (flake dye). This is the result - I don't know if this pic will show it - but perhaps this is what you are after? The color is exactly what I wanted.

No frost after 10 days and perfect adhesion (but thats what you get with CBA V. 2 with pretty much any type of dye).

HTH

For FULL disclosure, I did photoshop out (using the smudge tool) a bad reflection on the glass but thats it. Sorry its blurry - but I can't use a flash when I take pics with my digital camera at close range because the flash will reflect back off the glass this close and totally burn out the image.

[Holly]

Hi Henry,

Thanks for the post. The pryme colors are great but I will still get some frosting with some oils. I have the most trouble with Cinnamon Stick and Country Grove and when I have to do the Blueberry Muffins. Some others too but can't recall. The pryme colors do help but not enough with some. I did test the KY-125 and made one with Blueberry Muffin which I can get some frosting and it came out with no frost and I did not even use the Pryme color that time. Wanted to see how it compared to the CB-3 with my normal dye. I noticed that the Eco soy, C-3 Cargill and the KY 125 frost less than the CB-3 for me. But, the CB-3 is an awesome soy for scent throw and it is closer to get. I need to make it work. It has a different texture than the C-3, Eco soys and the KY-125. I think it is closer to the pure soy look even though it has veggie oils in it. It does not indicate that it has the cottenseed. Maybe that is what makes the soy frost less.

I am going to order the pastel colors next from Pryme and see how they work. However, I usually do not have much trouble with the oils that are colored with lighter shades. It is the heavy oils and darder dyes that are a pain for me.

Thanks again for posting and posting the picture. The color looks great and I can't see any frosting! Four drops is a good amount -- not so much. I get trouble when I have to go over 6 drops. I will have to check those dyes out. I may also try the dye chips like I used a long time ago when I first started to make paraffin candles before I changed to liquid.

[Henryk]

Thank you - please keep us informed of your progress with Pryme if you think about it.

The one problem I ran into with using dye chips is some colors (reds, browns) I have a hard time getting to dissolve (even heating the wax up to 200F - which I don't like to do with soys). It seems I always have some very small amount of sediment. Its not an issue with containers, but with pillars in which the bottom of the mold is the top of the pillar - its a problem for me. So, I bought a set of the CS liquids for those type of things.

[Holly]

Thank you - please keep us informed of your progress with Pryme if you think about it.

The one problem I ran into with using dye chips is some colors (reds, browns) I have a hard time getting to dissolve (even heating the wax up to 200F - which I don't like to do with soys). It seems I always have some very small amount of sediment. Its not an issue with containers, but with pillars in which the bottom of the mold is the top of the pillar - its a problem for me. So, I bought a set of the CS liquids for those type of things.

Yes, I ran into the same thing and that is why I switched to liquid and have loved it up until I started working with soy. I am going to try the chips with the problem colors only and see if I can melt it in just a little bit of wax first. I don't want to heat the Calsoy past 170. I will see how it goes.

[Holly]

I may melt the chips with the Veggie Modifier first then add the wax. But then you run into that "oh, it needs to be a little darker with a little bit of this and a little bit of that" -- a pain with chips and if I have to add it after the fact I am back to those little sediments.

[Jordan]

Hi Holly,

I have found in the wax you are using, the darker colors do tend to frost more---especially with the cinnamon/spicy scents. I happened to test a cinnamon bun in that wax last summer, and it frosted like crazy---but the Lilac scented/colored candle did not. I made a few other candles too, they all had frost, but the darker candles were terrible. That was why I didn't use it. The ADM doesn't tend to frost this much, so I stuck with it at that time.

I have been using the Pryme dyes and don't have any problems with frost in the darker colors with them in ADM. I think some waxes just tend to frost more, but that is my experience.

Jordan

[Holly]

Hi Holly,

I have found in the wax you are using, the darker colors do tend to frost more---especially with the cinnamon/spicy scents. I happened to test a cinnamon bun in that wax last summer, and it frosted like crazy---but the Lilac scented/colored candle did not. I made a few other candles too, they all had frost, but the darker candles were terrible. That was why I didn't use it. The ADM doesn't tend to frost this much, so I stuck with it at that time.

I have been using the Pryme dyes and don't have any problems with frost in the darker colors with them in ADM. I think some waxes just tend to frost more, but that is my experience.

Jordan

Hi Jordan,

Yes, I agree. If it was not for the great shipping and high percentage of scent throw with most oils I would switch to another soy. I am trying to see what I can do to help the bad frosting. I don't mind some frosting and even think it can look kinda neat but when it is blotchy all over I cringe. I made one candle with the KY-125 (Blueberry Muffin, dark blue) and had no frost. I am not sure if the throw or quality of smell is as good as with the CB-3. I am burning it right now to determine a little more. I had less frost with the C-3 and Eco Soyas too. I am going to continue to use the CB-3 and may have to find another soy for the ones that give me the most trouble. I have many that come out great: Plumeria, Euc. & Spearmint, Citrus and Teakwood (some frost but not bad), Lavender Vanilla, all my other Vanillas, French Vanilla Amber, Rose, Sweet Serendipty, even Cin. Buns for me, Sage & Citrus, and many more. But I have a lot of trouble with Cin. Stick, Country Grove, Blueberry Muffin, Mulled Cider, Pine and some others.

The Pryme has helped me some (not as much frost) epecially with the Country Grove -- WAY BETTER. I love the Magenta color they offer -- you can use one to two drops to get a beautiful pink.

Does the ADM have the veggie oils in it like the CB-3 Calsoy? I never followed through with ordering some to test. I am suppose to call this lady back to get more info on it but got a little sidetracked. I will give her a call soon. I am going to test the KY-125 a little more and maybe even the C-3. In the meantime I am commited to getting the CB-3 to work.

Thanks for your thoughts!

~Holly

[Fern-Marie]

....and so began my hellish week. Those darn Cinnamon Sticks candles.

I had the exact same problem. I never experienced such frosting...never. It wasn't even attractively 'quaint'...I closed my eyes and woke up in soy hell!!

Also, Everytime I use any red based dye chip, I get little specks on the underside of the candle. Out of frustration, I tried taking a little bit of wax out of the pot, and putting the chip in, and heating in microwave. I still had to take a spoon and mush it against the sides of the glass, and still ended up with specks. HenryK is exactly right - it seems that even higher temps will not dissolve the chip reds. What happened to cause the horrid frosting...I have no idea. The sink holes were a nightmare. Very frustrating week. I have worked to exhaustion on saving the batch....it still looks like hell. I even broke down all of the candles and tried to redo them...still frosted. I may have to break it down and use for tarts.

I think I will invest in liquid dyes...I've had it with the speckled wax...too time consuming.

Lots of good info here, makes me feel better to know it isn't just me.

[Holly]

....and so began my hellish week. Those darn Cinnamon Sticks candles.

I had the exact same problem. I never experienced such frosting...never. It wasn't even attractively 'quaint'...I closed my eyes and woke up in soy hell!!

Fern, I know it is not funny, but you got me laughing because that is exactly how I feel about it! You explained it perfectly. By the way, what soy do you use? I forget. I hope something can be done for this problem. Actually, I made a Cinnamon Stick candle with the Cargill C-3 and hardly got any frosting -- at least not the UGLY kind that I got with the soy I mainly use - CB-3. So, I may have to use another soy for those problem scents. I don't know what the scent throw is like yet with the C-3 and cinnamon. I may try it today. I had a cold and I could not smell a thing for a couple of days.

~Holly

[Fern-Marie]

Hi Holly,

I use CB Advanced 2 Soy. I don't know what I am going to do yet.

They are soooo bad. Forget trying to use any kind of red dye...at any temperature...they do not melt completely, Tops is right on, all my red colored candles have 'freckles'!

My husband is due home today from visiting his parents up Northern Maine....I actually looked for a box to hide them in before he gets home and sees them. I don't want to frighten him!!

I am going to persevere, only because it pissed me off so bad!

I will try pouring hotter. That's the only thing that I haven't tried.

Some day, I will be so good at this, I will laugh at these times...ahhhh. Just when I think everything is going so smoothly...OY!

Good luck with your project today...I will keep my fingers crossed for you!

[ike]

I have been using liquid dye in my soy candles for about 6 years.The only fragrance that I get any frosting is cinnamon stick. I use a mixture of two different soys and I do not have a problem any more.

[itsallgood20]

Don't know if this will help but I use Peak's Cinnamon and their Cinnamon color blocks. I put mine in the microwave in a pyrex cup and heat it for a minute or two... add my wax @ 170, f.o. and stir. Never had a problem with frosting or speckles. Just my 2 cents.

[Fern-Marie]

I used the last of my Burgundy chips today. I am going to start replacing the chips with liquid dye.

I brought the temp up to 180 in a small bowl with just a few ounces of wax and a red-based chip. It didn't work for me. I just do not have the time to stand there and mash the colored specks up against the side of the glass trying to get them to melt and blend. I tried a second at 200...still had specks. I tried the 'soy dye chips' ... absolutely no difference. That's it, I am done with the chips. So, one color at a time as I run out of chips will be replaced by the liquids. It's a shame that the mfgs. can't do better with this. It is so much more convenient, I think, to just drop in a chip.

I ended up waiting for the specks to settle, and poured very slowly so as not to stir them up and pour them into the candles. What a pain!

Just one thing, will I have to re-formulate everything to switch to the liquids?

I don't want it to turn into a big financial loss over coloring. Do I have to be concerned with replacing wax and wicks, or is the liquid just as compatible with soy wax and wicks?

Thanks.

[topofmurrayhill]

It really is a shame that they manufacture such a crummy product. It's not like it hasn't been known in the industry for a long time that you have to filter sediment with the powdered dyes those chips and blocks are made from. I have a candlemaking book from 35 years ago that mentions needing to do that. But they don't because that would make it less profitable to produce them.

To answer your question about switching over...the type and amount of dye in your candle will be about the same if you duplicate the color with liquid. It shouldn't make much of a difference with the burn. The problem with liquid dye and soy is that the solvent that the dye is dissolved in can increase frosting. I guess it depends on your wax and the exact dye product you choose. Some people have pretty good luck with it.

Candle Cocoon has some solid natural wax colorant I recently tried out. Seems to work pretty well and didn't get any sediment with the red.

[Fern-Marie]

Tops, un-be-freakin-leivable.

How many times I have wondered what the heck it is in there that won't melt, even at 200. Exactly what I thought was that I should try to filter it...it actually looks grainy. The time I wasted...arrrggg!

At least I can put that one question to rest.

Thanks for sharing that little bit of info. I will commit that to memory.