Something I don't get about this board

[sweetiepie]

Why is there such a double standard between candlemaking and soapmaking around here?

I have just read 2 separate posts where soapmaking newbies have mentioned selling their soaps. Only one poster commented that maybe it was a bit too early.

WTF???

If these posters had only made 4 or 5 candles and even casually mentioned selling, smoke would be pouring from keyboards all over the world as members lamented over and over the evils of daring such blasphemy.

I don't care who's recipe you used or how many angels sing when you rush your fresh soap into the shower. Soapmaking should be approached with the same cautious respect as candlemaking, period.

I've only made a couple of candles myself, it's a hobby. I've made thousands of bars of soap, it's a business.

See the distinction?

Proof positive that a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

[elly]

I'm going to guess that candles get more of an uproar because there is a flame involved. But I agree that both should be thoroughly tested before anyone even thinks about selling.

[salli]

Please forgive my ignorance here, I am definitely a newbie. I've sent/given my soaps all over the place for people to try and have gotten many raves from people who have previously used handcrafted soaps. Quite a few have suggested that I sell these soaps-they actually think they are that good. I personally like them better (of course I am biased) than the majority of other handcrafted soaps I have tried. I am by no means a professional at this, but if I have tested them, have had other people test them. I would like to know why I shouldn't try to sell them. Also, when is selling them acceptable? I'm not trying to be difficult, but I would like to know. TIA

Salli

[thesoapbox]

Salli, when you are ready to sell them is up to YOU! Noone else on this board can make that decision for you. I have a hard time with people on the board who automatically want to say..OH MY GOD you said you just made this and NOW you want to sell this..HOW DARE YOU! I also have a hard time with people who are always saying, Oh I hope you have your cautions and warning labels since I don't see it in the pic.

This grates my nerves..no offense to anyone it's just an issue with me.

Only YOU alone know how, what, why, when and where you test. And as long as YOU are comfortable with what your results are then it is YOUR business and basically YOUR butt you have to look out for.

You will find people that will test the same recipe 8 gazillion times before even thinking of selling and then you will find some people have a shorter test time before they sell. It is up to THEM when they are comfortable with what they are doing.

If you are happy with the results that you have been having with your soap, and are comfortable with the information given you by your testers then you are ready and you go ahead with how you want to.

I know that many on the board say these things to help people out, especially the newbies who believe they can just slap something together and go ahead and sell, but sometimes the way people on the board write what they are trying to say is not very kind. At least there are times that I have read these comments and thought, sheesh, you could have been a bit nicer instead of so rude with the comment...but then again that is ME and how I am reading it.

Also, we have to stop and think that just because someone says they are trying a twist to a recipe does not mean they haven't tested their original recipe. Like my lotion bars. I have been making lotion bars for a few years now. I have not been in the market to sell because we were stationed in Germany for 3 years and not allowed to run a business. So, I found the recipe for the non-greasy lotion bar, the only difference to that bar from the ones I have made in the past is the IPM and the sunflower oil. I used a different oil but all the same ingredients. But, it could be construed on the board that I did not test this properly because it was not known to the board that I had been making these for a few years already. That I think is what bothers me about the comments on not being ready. We don't really know what the testing each of us has done on these items and someone may post it is a new recipe for them even though it is them simply changing an oil to their original recipe. So I think that is why comments like these bother me because it is people jumping to conclusions on how someone else's testing is done or not done.

So, off my soap box and like I said. If you are comfortable with how your soap is and how it acts and you are comfortable with the results you get then you can sell them all you want. After all, it is YOUR business. But still remember that if you do see people bashing others about testing, they are really just trying to look out for those people and probably don't intend for their words to come across the way they do..which is why I don't ever say that I find it rude lol. The written word can come across differently to everyone

ANgi

[salli]

Angi, thanks for the kind reply. I have formulated and tested these soaps on/for my hands and body since I am very sensitive to soap (hands crack very easily). After reading the post I responded to I immediately grabbed a bar of two different soaps (10 days old) and washed the daylights of my hands with both. Even as "young" soap, I have no irritation or dryness from using them, they lather nicely and don't leave a film, yet my hands feel moisturized. In your opinion, are these the qualities I should be achieving/attempting to achieve with my soaps? TIA

Salli

[Kimberly]

Good Question! I for one have sat on my hands many times to keep from typing to a newbie about selling too soon. The reason most people are so gung ho on selling candles too soon is the fact that 1. there is a flame and 2. if you put a substandard product out there, it gives us all a bad name! Some people on here have spent THOUSANDS of dollars testing...then someone who thinks this is a get rich quick business comes on here, asks a million questions, and ~poof~ all of a sudden they are in business? WTF?

Now on to the soap "double standard". Soap is soap. It either soponifies or it doesnt...if there is no zap, ya got soap. I personally, never use my soap because I cant stand bar soap...I have a thing about slimy soap...eeeeeeew.lol I made my first batch of soap about 2 1/2yrs ago and I didnt add it to my line until a yr ago. But again, someone comes here, asks a million questions about soap and ~poof~ they are in the soaping biz....WTF?

I can understand you commenting on the double standard between soap and candles....it bugs me too. But hey, I am a known bitch on this board....so that should be nothing new...

[hometowncandles]

I don't think either is as much a matter of how long you've been doing it, but how much you've been testing it. I know everybody's situation is different, some people have plenty of time to devote to testing and developing their product and some only have a few hours here and there.

I have noticed this sad trend also, somebody mentions selling their candles after only a few months of testing and, :shocked2: , you'd think they had just shot the President or something. Unless they just happen to offer up their written test results in detail, how do we know they haven't dedicated hundreds of hours to testing in that few months.

But, with soaps and lotions, it's mostly yehaw's and hooray's because somebody had ventured into the wonderful world of B&B. I love doing both, and right now I am at the stage of using B&B bases, but I still test to make sure I haven't added too much f/o or dye. Don't want to burn somebody's skin because I have used too much f/o or dye them purple because I have added too much dye. I hope to venture into handmade soaps and lotions eventually, but only when I have the time to rigerously(sp?) test them as I have my candles.

I think it is equally as important to test both, yes with candles, you could burn somebody's house or cause serious injury if you make a shoddy product, but you could also do alot of damage to somebody with improperly made B&B products. You are working with chemicals after all. Just my

Off my soap box now:grin2:

[ChrisR]

A lot of newbies also have no insurance in place when they start to sell soap or any B & B products. They have no idea how to label their products correctly either and that alone could cause someone with allergies major, major problems!!

I cringe every time I see someone start selling candles or any B & B products after just asking a month ago, how the hell to do it!! But, it's like talking to the wall with most of them, cause they're gonna do what they want, when they want.. I personally choose at that point, to no longer offer any help with any questions, since they already know everything to start a business!!

[salli]

Time out please. So, let's say I test soap formulations for a year or so at the current rate that I'm going. Get approval from forum members that they are good. Would that make it acceptable for me to sell if I have the proper insurance and ingredients list with my product?

[EmpressC]

Salli, as someone else said, only YOU know when you are ready to sell. If you've tested, had others test, properly preserved those products that need it, researched and understand the ingredients you're using and can speak informatively about your products, have all your legal ducks in a row, then be confident that you are ready! Just because it didn't take you 10 years and $10,000 does not mean you're not ready.

Perhaps there is a fine line between being ready or not, but no one can or has really drawn that line for someone else. Is a year enough time? 6 months? And how much time on a daily basis should be devoted??? Come on!

There is enough information on this board alone, not to mention the entire internet, where people can get a lot of good information to grow leaps and bounds in a short amount of time. Besides, I would venture to guess that many experienced soapers refine and tweak their recipes a lot anyway, so why can't a relatively new person do the same as they gain more knowledge?

Sheesh! :rolleyes2

[RobinInOR]

Only you know when you're ready. And the problem basically solves itself - if you do go off and sell before you truly are ready, you will eventually leave the business. Either you never learn to sell, your product doesn't have a wide enough appeal, or it truly isn't very good and you won't have any return customers.

Sure, people will say "you give the biz a bad name and it's harder to sell". But, I've never found that the case in my area. I *sell*, so if someone has had a bad experience before, I can ease their concerns.

This is my fifth year in business. I just got insurance this year. I didn't kill anyone in the last 5 years - I knew my market, what type of people I was selling to, and my exposure.

I know a *ton* of local people that do candles, and b&b, and guess what - they don't go to online forums. They've done it the hard way, having to learn everything on their own. We're lucky that we're exposed to many different concepts on the boards.

And sure, I've spent thousands testing. But I'll still help people with the basic ideas. I won't give specific recipes, but I'll try to help with concepts. I learned everything I know from being on 3 different boards. If they had been as tight as many boards are getting now, I probably wouldn't be doing what I'm doing. I guess I've got a choice - I can get upset at the get rich quick newbies, or I can point them in the right direction. They'll learn.

[gloworm]

Well said Robin, as usual.

Glo

[salli]

Robin, thank you. The main reason I came to this forum was to learn. I have read and read and read......read some more. Asked what probably seems like alot of stupid questions. Truthfully, I don't see selling my soaps as "get rich quick" - anything but. More like a labor of love. I most likely would have never considered selling if I had not been encouraged to do so by a number of people who have tried my few soaps and think they are very good.

[EmpressC]

Yep, well said Robin.

[EmpressC]

Truthfully, I don't see selling my soaps as "get rich quick" - anything but. More like a labor of love.

I think this is true of a lot of us. It is a labor of love and when you truly love what you're doing, that will be the impetus that propels you to make a quality product!

[sweetiepie]

Thanks to the posters who ventured guesses as to the double standard. I still don't really understand, but what you guys said made sense.

Now, the topic of this thread wasn't really about how to know when you're ready to sell, but since it's gone that way I'll play along.

I also agree with Robin, to a point. Usually, the fly-by-nighters aren't around long enough to cause any real damage.

I do, however, think that over anxious newbies can hurt the businesses of others. Have you ever seen what happens to a poorly formulated soap left on a shelf for 6 months or more? Well, many shop owners have. Retailers don't want to invest in a product that might get gooey orange spots and smell rancid if they don't sell quickly. That's not even taking into account fading fragrances, lye pockets, color changes, shrinkage or any of the other issues that can only be prevented by EXPERIENCE. Sure, some newbie may luck into a great recipe developed by an experienced soaper. Unfortunately, that recipe may not work well with your climate or market. There is a reason that "practice makes perfect" is such an over used cliche. It's true!

Salli, I never mentioned anyone by name, but since you brought yourself into this, I'll address you personally.

You may make fabulous soaps. I don't know. But do you really believe that your soaps are as good as they can be? Many people have mentioned that only YOU can know when you are ready to sell. That's true, but that also means that all of your "testers" can't tell you either. You shouldn't let yourself be bullied into selling or not selling.

I guarantee you that just about every person who has ever given anyone a lovingly handmade bar of soap (or a candle) has been met with a chorus of oohs and ahhs and told that they absolutely MUST sell this. How many times have you read posts where people received "rave reviews" from their testers? A product is always nicer when you like the person who makes it. It's a trick of marketing, not a promise of success.

Anyway, I wish you all the best and hope that you'll be around long enough to teach us old dogs some new tricks. Good luck.

[thesoapbox]

~"rave" reviews from testers~

Exactly why I don't use family as testers . They are going to say how much they love it even if they hate it...kind of like the new baby thing...they will always tell you the baby is absolutely gorgeous, even if it has a face only his mother can love LOL!

All these responses were great and right on the mark.

To answer the original question, I believe it is worse on the candle side because you are dealing with fire mixed with wax, oils, colors and other additives. And as I have been reading the candle side there was one post about a candle company that was toting how extremeley easy it was to make a candle. Plop in your wax, some dye, some fragrance and a wick and Oila! you have a candle you can sell and make tons of money! OMG, even I know that is crazy and to our experienced chandlers, reading that is probably comparable to hearing fingernails scratching down the chalkboard.

You will find members that are very...passionate about their feelings when it comes to this . But that is my take on why they are a bit more...passionate...about these issues on the candle side.

(I didn't want to say bitchy lol, so I chose passionate)

Angi

[Crafty1_AJ]

Now this is just MY personal experience, but I found the learning curve on making candles to be much steeper than the one on soaping. There are specific, detailed instructions about what ingredients to use and exactly how to go about making soap. Since I can read, research, and follow detailed directions without a problem, I was able to make soap successfully a lot faster than I was able to make candles successfully. I seldom see exact, specific recipes for candles. There are so many more variables in the ingredients for candles (the various types of waxes and wicks, for example, boggle the mind. lol) With soap, you're talking basically sodium hydroxide and oils. (OK, that's oversimplifying, but you get my drift! )

Now I'm not going to sit here and lie, telling you my first batches of soap were lovely, BEAUTIFUL works of art. But they were perfectly useable soap! And halfway decent soap, if I do say so myself, because I'd done a lot of research and used good, basic, tried & true ingredients/methods/recipes. I was meticulous to a fault. I dotted every "i" and crossed every "t" -- then went back and checked again to make sure I had.

In retrospect, I probably did sell soap a little before I should have; I was anxious to recoup some of the expense of soaping. LOL. But my family and I tested each and every single one of my first "for sale" batches before they left the door. I was so green, though, that as a newb to soaping, I didn't know what I didn't know. I didn't know I'd need to watch how soap ages, to see if it gets DOS, for example. A more experienced soaper shared her concern about my selling so soon, and in retrospect, I'd have to agree with her cautious attitude. But at the time I didn't agree. I'm a brash, over-confident dork sometimes -- what can I say? We all have our weaknesses!

Just my experience, in a nutshell. Took me a lot longer to responsibly develop a decent candle. lol

[thesoapbox]

Heck, I think I go through soap bars so quick they don't have time to go bad ROFL!

Angi

[salli]

Hopefully, what I have to say will help quell a little anxiety. BTW, most of you have been extremely nice and helpful. I definitely understand your concerns. Truthfully, my first batches were so ugly I figured the minute the minute I was gone they would be tossed. Are my soaps the BEST they can be, honestly probably not-I think everything can be improved upon. My testers are people who would encourage me to continue trying longer. They have been chosen carefully for their honesty even if it might be a little brutal at times. My son for one. I gave him a bar of soap and asked him to use it. I got that yeah right mom look. Guess what, he's been back for two more bars for himself (of course his are free). My dh, in spite of hurting my feelings he would be very honest and take the consequences. I guess the one tester who really put the old proof in the pudding that my soap might actually be marketable is an internet friend who sells skincare. She's using my goatsmilk soap on her FACE and loves it! And there are more.

I only have four soaps that I would consider selling (and I certainly wouldn't attempt to sell large batches to a store). These are formulations I have come up with not a recipe from someone else. I've lost count of the hours/days/weeks I've spent researching and I'm not done yet by any means. I can't tell you how many batches I've tossed because they weren't up to snuff. As far as fancy, there is absolutely no way they can compete with the beautiful creations I've seen on this forum. Hopefully those gorgeous swirls, etc. will come in time. I've been focusing on quality of basic product which is what I consider most important. HTH

[salli]

Also, one of my testers did have a reaction. I have tried and tried to recreate that reaction on my skin and so has a friend (to the point of scrubbing myself almost raw). This is the soap my son loves. I guess he'll get that batch for himself. I'm really not attempting to blast into this willy nilly.

[eugenia]

Now this is just MY personal experience, but I found the learning curve on making candles to be much steeper than the one on soaping.

I'm with AJ on this one, made candles first and soap was a breeze after that. It's good soap or it's not. No wicks, LOL. There is no doubt that the soap I make today is far better than my early soaps. Soap making is a continually evolving process for me and I am always learning new things.

Candles seem to attract more "get rich quick" type of folks as they appear easier, and that's the key word. I think it's harder to make a quality candle than it is to make a good bar of soap.

I did not officially sell either for two years, although I gave away many and sold to friends and co-workers.

e

[Candybee]

I bet if you posed your question on the general candlemaking forum you would get a much different set of responses.

I think there is generally more critique going on when a new candle maker is in a hurry to sell their first set of candles because of the poorly made candle catching fire factor.

There seems to be more newbies that come here and post about how they bought their wax yesterday, made candles today, and are ready to sell them this weekend! I just see that more on the candle forum than in the soap making forum.

[Carrie]

Here's my take on this.

July 5th you make your first batch of CP and it's oily on top.

July 23rd you make a failed milk soap that ends up gloopy.

July 25th you make a salt soap that needs to be rebatched.

July 30th you want to make a facial bar with neem oil.

August 2nd you think your soaps are good enough to sell.

I'd say that you still have a bit more work ahead of you before you should sell your soaps. You have 4 batches of good soap and at least 3 batches of bad soap. Until your percentage of good to bad gets better, I'd say more R&D is in order.

Just my opinion.

[kidsngarden]

Now this is just MY personal experience, but I found the learning curve on making candles to be much steeper than the one on soaping. There are specific, detailed instructions about what ingredients to use and exactly how to go about making soap. Since I can read, research, and follow detailed directions without a problem, I was able to make soap successfully a lot faster than I was able to make candles successfully. I seldom see exact, specific recipes for candles.

Just my experience, in a nutshell. Took me a lot longer to responsibly develop a decent candle. lol

Ditto here. I came to this forum as a soaper wanting to make soy candles to match the fragrances of my soaps - Oh my! I had never realized how hard it was to make a GREAT soy candle than a GREAT bar of soap. There are a zillion variables, especially with soy and the testing is extensive. Needless to say at this point I don't have any candles for sale.

To be truthful I think that many people try handmade soap after using storebought and truly find it lovely in comparison. It is REALLY hard to make a soap that isn't better than a bar of dial.

And let's get real, even an experienced soaper usually tries to make their product even better. Things are constantly evolving - and thank goodness for that!

Now, if you want to make lotions, then you'd better be testing. It can be a lovely lotion full of bacteria, yeast and who knows what else if your preservative isn't working properly or you aren't using correct sanitation and manufacturing techniques!

My two cents!

Bethany