salli Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Good point. You can also add another batch of salt soap to the list that I didn't post about. There are also others that I have done that aren't pretty enough - you know - only a mother could love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugenia Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Here's my take on this.July 5th you make your first batch of CP and it's oily on top.July 23rd you make a failed milk soap that ends up gloopy.July 25th you make a salt soap that needs to be rebatched.July 30th you want to make a facial bar with neem oil.August 2nd you think your soaps are good enough to sell.I'd say that you still have a bit more work ahead of you before you should sell your soaps. You have 4 batches of good soap and at least 3 batches of bad soap. Until your percentage of good to bad gets better, I'd say more R&D is in order.Just my opinion.Whoa, I've been sleeping, LOL. Carrie just opened my eyes. Salli, you've got a long road ahead before considering selling.e Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salli Posted August 4, 2007 Share Posted August 4, 2007 What should the ratio of sales worthy batches be? I've gotten 4 bases down that I like - alot and so do other people. I did each in a different eo. Some of the bad ones were me experimenting with colors, some were fragrance oils that turned. One was clay. Another was a really stupid mistake of ordering and using potasium hydroxide. Granted I am not capable of doing a salt bar, on the other hand I did a beautiful goatsmilk (I also did one bad one) and a really good buttermilk. No, I don't have dyes, swirling down. I would really like to get this right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugenia Posted August 4, 2007 Share Posted August 4, 2007 What should the ratio of sales worthy batches be? I've gotten 4 bases down that I like - alot and so do other people. I did each in a different eo. Some of the bad ones were me experimenting with colors, some were fragrance oils that turned. One was clay. Another was a really stupid mistake of ordering and using potasium hydroxide. Granted I am not capable of doing a salt bar, on the other hand I did a beautiful goatsmilk (I also did one bad one) and a really good buttermilk. No, I don't have dyes, swirling down. I would really like to get this right.I started making soap in 2003 and selling it in 2005. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soapmaker Man Posted August 4, 2007 Share Posted August 4, 2007 I tested over 30 recipes I've made up using Sooz Calc. trying to get a good, if I can borrow the word, "synergy" from the various oils, fats, butters I use to get the recipe I really like today! At least 30 recipes! I've been at this 2 years now, and still sell a lot more TOG Soapmaking Tools, than The 'Ole Goat Soaps & Lotions! Do I make THE WORLDS BEST SOAP??? HARDLY! Do I after testing over 30 recipes make a decent bar with good synergy, I think so. I was too anxious at first too, but started out making goat milk soaps and never looked back. I wish I would have transitioned from regular CP to GMCP over a period of time though. A good bar of soap, like it's maker, is like a good bottle of wine or cheese, it gets better over TIME!Paul.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted August 4, 2007 Share Posted August 4, 2007 The candle section has very high traffic, which might be contributing to how many of those threads you see. Clueless people come through on a regular basis -- and by clueless I don't mean just new.We can talk about whether soap or candles are more complicated or how long you have to learn each one before you can sell. But I think there's a more basic principle here that's the same for both as well as other pursuits.Excellent craft products are made by people with skill and years of experience. With all the pastimes out there that take so long to master, it's presumptuous for people to announce they're in business a few months after they first tried it. BruceCarvesWax, who's been a chandler since the 70s, has pointed out on occasion that it can be kind of insulting.After a few months you may not even be in much of a position to evaluate your products. Doesn't matter whether you know the "rules" about melt pools and whatever. There are about a zillion finer points you haven't got a handle on.In the end it comes down not only to when you should sell but whether you should ever sell. Some people ultimately demonstrate the knack to develop great products and some don't. I mean, not everyone who loves pottery should eventually open a shop. It's unrealistic. For some it will remain a personal pastime that they love and maybe some casual sales. Others will demonstrate greater ability but it takes time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBShafeena Posted August 4, 2007 Share Posted August 4, 2007 I agree with some, disagree with others, always the diplomat I am, lol.First, for those of you who state I have started in such and such a year and started selling in such and such a year. To me the amount of years is not what quallifies you but the amount of "hours" that you have spent on either soapmaking and/or candlemaking. You can have someone who has spent a year making soaps and or candles, once a week or you could have someone who has spent 6 months making candles or soaps on a daily basis. I probably spent 6 months alone just reading, taking notes, etc. before I even ventured at attempting a first batch of soap, or any other B&B product. Having read so much and the fact that I work for Health Canada (Canadian Goverment) in "Product Safety" (Cosmetics, Food products, tobacco, etc, etc) I am VERY conscience of the "safety" aspect in any product, whether it be candles or soaps, etc. As a matter of fact a report just came across my desk last week about certain F&D colorants that have a high probability of being carcinogens, specific colors (related #s) and I quickly went to the supplier I am using to see if they carried those specifc numbered colors and glad they don't and that I haven't used them. Our rules are very strict in Canada, our Regulations are tough. I will be happy to share, when I get back to work on Tuesday (long weekend) part of the report and the colorants that are to be avoided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth-VT Posted August 4, 2007 Share Posted August 4, 2007 Kimberly, Robin, and many others have excellent points covering all sides. The thing is, no one ever burned a house down with a bad bar of soap. And while maybe it's true that only you (meaning anyone, not the original poster) can determine if you're ready to sell, the sad truth is - hold your breath, this isn't going to be politically correct - some people really are just stupid. All the testing in the world isn't going to help the person that really has no common sense, can't figure things out on their own, can't think a problem through. Some people simply can't even recognize if there is a problem. And yes, there are people like that on this board. And because people like that exist, there will always be people who respond as mentioned.It's like American Idol. People that are tone deaf really don't see the problem with their singing...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Girl Posted August 4, 2007 Share Posted August 4, 2007 What should the ratio of sales worthy batches be? I've gotten 4 bases down that I like - alot and so do other people. I did each in a different eo. Some of the bad ones were me experimenting with colors, some were fragrance oils that turned. One was clay. Another was a really stupid mistake of ordering and using potasium hydroxide. Granted I am not capable of doing a salt bar, on the other hand I did a beautiful goatsmilk (I also did one bad one) and a really good buttermilk. No, I don't have dyes, swirling down. I would really like to get this right.Just guessing, but I'd think this would be my first clue that your are no where near ready to sell anything yet. Scent and color mistakes are one thing, and honestly, who really cares (but us) if a soap has 1 color or 124... and hell, I'll personally seize up a batch of soap in a heartbeat and end up with something that resembles spam more times than I care to count, but chemical mistakes are totally unacceptable and scream you need more time to learn what you are doing and why before you seriously hurt someone. Joining swaps as often as you can afford to is one of the best ways to get good honest feedback from your peers and an awesome way to test ideas and formulations. I highly suggest it to you as part of the learning process. Friends and family are too biased to have their opinions count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladydragon Posted August 4, 2007 Share Posted August 4, 2007 I know this might be slightly varying the original question but it did raise a couple of questions for me...I'm presuming most of the posters so far on this thread are in the US? Can you, in the US, just decide at any time to make and sell soap or other bath and body products?Reason I'm wondering is because in the UK we're not allowed to sell anything that might be classed as a cosmetic (which translates as wash off or leave on products that aren't medicinal in nature) without first having a legal safety assessment...It is possible to buy a small safety assessment which ties you to the limited ingredients and methodology determined by the company selling the assessment - but in the main, it means you have to approach a qualified toxicologist with your basic recipe, any extra variable ingredients and their quantities, methodology of manufacture, labelling examples, suppliers, MSDS data, INCI names etc and pay them a substantial amount of money to assess your product before you are legally allowed to sell it to the public... And you need a different assessment for each product - ie one assessment might cover you for your CP soap base recipe with variable ingredients - but you'd need a separate assessment for M&P soap, lotion bars etc etc...It's darn expensive to be able to make and sell products here - final cost per product would probably be around $250 minimum for the base recipe and maybe $10 EACH per variable ingredient including extras such as botanicals or fragrance/essential oils... and you do need to be pretty final in the recipe as actually tweaking it at a later date would probably require a whole new assessment... Selling a product with no safety assessment in place = no insurance and potential prosecution if caught... In effect our recipes and process are 'proven and verified' before we can ever sell the stuff...As for candles - well, that's the other end of the scale... Absolutely no legislation in place before you can make and sell candles to the unsuspecting public... My 10 year old and probably my dog could do it...lol Been making the candles for six years/selling for five and a half and the B&B products for two and selling for less than a year - have to say I found soaps etc a lot easier in comparison to the candles given the more defined recipe and manufacturing process to soaps etc... The wick testing nightmare never stops - even from batch to batch with the same supplier...lol But although the investment for testing is roughly the same - the investment costs to bring B&B products to market so to speak are hugely different...Sorry if it's diverted the original question somewhat - but I'm a tad curious how it works elsewhere...Ann-Marie x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Girl Posted August 4, 2007 Share Posted August 4, 2007 Ann-Marie, I wish we did things like this here in the US. It'd save a lot of trouble and idiot proof the system. Personally, if I ever sold soap in the UK, I'd probably start with very few scents and expand slowly. I'd never sell B&B... just due to the cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBShafeena Posted August 4, 2007 Share Posted August 4, 2007 Link for anyone (outside the U.S.) who will be selling to someone in the U.S. A must read... These are things that people dont' think about. They just think they can put up a website and sell "internationally". It's important to check the laws of the countries where you sell your soap or B&B products.http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~lrd/imports.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hibiscus Posted August 4, 2007 Share Posted August 4, 2007 I agree with some, disagree with others, always the diplomat I am, lol.First, for those of you who state I have started in such and such a year and started selling in such and such a year. To me the amount of years is not what quallifies you but the amount of "hours" that you have spent on either soapmaking and/or candlemaking. You can have someone who has spent a year making soaps and or candles, once a week or you could have someone who has spent 6 months making candles or soaps on a daily basis. Excellent point. :highfive: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel91805 Posted August 4, 2007 Share Posted August 4, 2007 Here's my take on this.July 5th you make your first batch of CP and it's oily on top.July 23rd you make a failed milk soap that ends up gloopy.July 25th you make a salt soap that needs to be rebatched.July 30th you want to make a facial bar with neem oil.August 2nd you think your soaps are good enough to sell.I'd say that you still have a bit more work ahead of you before you should sell your soaps. You have 4 batches of good soap and at least 3 batches of bad soap. Until your percentage of good to bad gets better, I'd say more R&D is in order.Just my opinion.I've only just seen this thread.....and I know the original intent of it was not to pick on Salli....but since she did take it personally....I'm going to have to agree with Carrie on this one! If the first part of July was the first CP batch you've ever made....good grief...you haven't even passed the 4-6 week cure time yet! Let them cure for pete's sake! My first few batches, *I* thought were wonderful and moisterizing....and 3 months later had DOS so bad they were disgusting to look at. Thank goodness they were all being kept for personal use anyway! I agree w/ Grumpy....join some swaps and get feedback from soapers.I won't even touch the "candle" issue. I'm deathly afraid of wicks...too many issues can happen with flames, FO's, waxes and wicks! And that is why "Wickless" is part of my company name!Donna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherry Posted August 4, 2007 Share Posted August 4, 2007 :confused: :confused: I just seen this thread to and you people got me so scared like i said i have a show next week and was planning to give out samples to people free but reading this thread i am very concern. I have made about 11 batches of soap with one bad. since May And i am a member in two more boards since last November my samples will be free so; what do you thing should i give samples out or not Will it be ok :confused: As for the Something i don't get about this board I don't want to get involve i been reading this board Non stop since last year And i Read some weird and some good and some Double standards But this is life You all;Sherry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandmaArial Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 As I do believe I am the other newbie referred to here I guess I should speak up. Frankly I’m insecure about my readiness to sell the soap I’m making… I believe I expressed it earlier when I announced it seems I’m in business ready or not. So reading this… my self doubts have reemerged… I see some valid points, and some… not so valid points made here. Ultimately I will take my own council, as everyone here has, and decide for myself. I would like to address a couple points… how much time and/or how many batches should one make before they participate with the big kids? I haven’t been doing this very long, but I have made about 30 batches. Most of these are duplicating the recipes I like, to insure it wasn’t a fluke and I could consistently get the consistent results. I test the soaps I make not just by washing my hands… I also have a “hot” room”… a small room I have set up with moist heat (90F, 70% humidity) to push the stability of the oils. Theoretically if the oils stay stable for 3 weeks in it that should be the equivalent to several months in the average closet. Other than the first batch I made (which out of fear of lye I supperfatted to 9%) all have passed this test. I have, to date, not had a lye heavy batch, but I will continue to test each batch as I know that SAP values we use to calculate our lye are averages that are dependant on many factors that I have no control over. I have also set up a curing closet with a dehumidifier and kept at a constant 72F with fans and slotted plastic racks for maximum ventilation. It seems to be working as after only 3 weeks the soap has lost 33% weight, which would have to be water as I am adding no volatile oils that could evaporate. The people I have recruited to test the soaps I have made are not just friends, they are people I trust. I admit I have given some to people who I know will say how wonderful they are even if it was making their skin fall off. I don’t ask these people what they think. I just say thank you I’m glad they like them. The people I have asked to test are people who will tell me what they think, will tell me what they want from a soap and how what I gave them fills this or is lacking. I know my soap is lacking compared to what many who have experience here make. I’m not a fool. I do know that the soap I have been making is far superior to every commercial soap I have ever tried, that proof is the condition of my skin. And that is also reflected by the feed back several of the people I have testing for me who also suffer sensitive skin issues. If, after a month or so of using this soap the condition of all of our skin has improved then that must mean it has something to do with the soap. As for having people here, on this forum, test my soap… there are some I think I would trust implicitly. Any criticism from them would be an honest assessment. But not everyone. There are some who would say it’s nice no matter what, and others that would criticize it to death out of their own insecurities. And many who would base their opinion on how they feel about me as a person. And those are only a few among the many who post here, the few I have watched with enough interest to see a pattern in how they respond to others. So, I think I will trust the people I know around here where I live, who may not be able to compare it to their own products but they can compare it to commercial soap, which is all I am competing with anyway. As for this being a get rich quick scheme… I would sure like to know how to do that. It is costing me $.84 to produce a 4 oz bar. That’s just the basic ingredients. Doesn’t include equipment I have bought, or need to buy if I do try to produce it in bulk. This doesn’t include over head, paper, printer ink, electricity used to either produce the product or produce the labels. It all works out to about $4.00/hr for my labor if I sell it for $4.00/bar, which is about the max I would pay for a bar of soap. So if there’s away to make a lot of money fast doing this PLEASE someone tell me!The last point I would like to address is that someone else can hurt your reputation. I don’t see how this can happen. I just don’t know too many people who would blame Maxwell House if they bought a bad can of Foldgers. And the few people I know who would… well… they will always find fault anyway so why worry about their opinion. Ok… well, I guess I will take my own council on whether to try to sell or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLSoaps Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 First of all, GrandmaArial, I just wanted to comment on how beautifully and eloquently this was written. Thank you. I love this group, but occasionally, it can get a little scary. I know there are many times I'm glad I don't make candles (too many busy boys running around my house!), and I didn't find the group until I was 'experienced' in most B&B areas. As for this being a get rich quick scheme… I would sure like to know how to do that. ...... I sell it for $4.00/bar, which is about the max I would pay for a bar of soap. So if there’s away to make a lot of money fast doing this PLEASE someone tell me!Get rich quick? HAH! I think it's more like Rack Up Debt Quick!!! I have sunk insane amounts of money into this over the years. I am happy to say that it is now self supporting, and occasionally even profit supporting (as in we can take money from the business, pay household bills and not have it hurt the business!). But it took us four years to get there. As for only charging $4.00 a bar, it might be an okay price to start out at, but honestly, it's very low for a bar of handmade soap. I started at $4.00/bar. And when the price of Olive Oil sky rocketed a couple years ago, I was forced to raise my prices. I went up to $5.00, and since I have gone up to $5.50/bar. I've always thought "they won't buy it at this price", but they always do. Actually, every time I've raised my prices, I've actually seen an increase in sales. If you don't value your product, and price it accordingly, your potential customers won't see the value, and will assume it's a cheap product (which we know it's not), and won't want it because of it. I hope that makes sense.I look at other soapers' websites ALL the time. Call it market research, inspirational (it is!!!), whatever, but I always compare prices. The average price nowadays is at least $5.00/bar. If LUSH can sell MP soap for an average of $7.00/bar, then we definitely deserve at least $5.00/bar.It sounds like you've got a good idea of what you're doing when it comes to pricing, but I'd like you to take a moment and try my pricing guide. It's always kind of mind blowing to me when I plug a new product through it. It really does account for just about everything, and makes you price your product correctly.http://www.soapersworkshop.com/store/index.php?page=Product%20Pricing%20Formula The last point I would like to address is that someone else can hurt your reputation. I don’t see how this can happen. I just don’t know too many people who would blame Maxwell House if they bought a bad can of Foldgers. And the few people I know who would… well… they will always find fault anyway so why worry about their opinion. I think the reason some people worry about this is because they've had people tell them they'll never use handmade soap because (fill in story here). It may be because great grandma's lye soap could strip the paint off the walls and even worse to your skin. Or their doctor has told them to only use Dove (or Dial or whomever). Or that "Soap" dries out your skin. Or 'I used so and so's handmade soap and it was awful because (insert skin problem here)." So some people will never use handmade soap again, regardless of who makes it or how much you try to talk them into it. In my not so humble opinion, these aren't real potential customers anyway. NONE of us are ever going to sell to them, so none of us have really lost a customer (except maybe for the soaper that originally turned them off of it). If it's because they used somebody's lousy soap, yeah, it sucks. But it happens in every single industry, not just ours. If you want a prime example, look at Wal-Mart. Some people love them (I happen to be one of them), others absolutely hate them to the point of boycotting them. Something happened to make this person that way. Yes, it sucks that it happened, we obviously wish it didn't, but it did. The people that get that far in their feelings will not be converted back.So when people say that by putting your product out there to early you risk hurting the reputation of the industry in general...well, maybe. I honestly see both sides of the issue on this one. But it could happen to anyone, and for a million different reasons. As long as you are confident that you are putting out a quality product, then I say go for it. Start small, keep practicing, working on improving, test everything you can, and go for it. For me, having these two businesses has changed my life, and I wouldn't trade them for anything. I love what I do. Okay, I'm done! Whew! I've been long winded tonight!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBShafeena Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 GrandmaArial, BRAVO!!!! I like you have probably made about 30 batches and my testers are some of my family, some of my co-workers and then others as well. I am lucky because of where I work (Health Canada- Product Safety (Cosmetics, etc). I am further lucky because my boss has her degree in Chemistry and we have spent alot of hours chatting and she is my sounding board, THANK YOU RACHELLE!!! So I TOTALLY agree with EVERYTHING YOU SAID. YOU GO GIRL! (from one grandma to another ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 GrandmaArial, I think it has been apparent for a while that you have a good head on your shoulders and will find your way. Yes you should trust your own counsel. Unfortunately not everyone has as good an advisor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tereasa Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 :confused: :confused: I just seen this thread to and you people got me so scared like i said i have a show next week and was planning to give out samples to people free but reading this thread i am very concern. I have made about 11 batches of soap with one bad. since May And i am a member in two more boards since last November my samples will be free so; what do you thing should i give samples out or not Will it be ok :confused: As for the Something i don't get about this board I don't want to get involve i been reading this board Non stop since last year And i Read some weird and some good and some Double standards But this is life You all;SherryWhat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugenia Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 As I do believe I am the other newbie referred to here I guess I should speak up. Frankly I’m insecure about my readiness to sell the soap I’m making… I believe I expressed it earlier when I announced it seems I’m in business ready or not. So reading this… my self doubts have reemerged… When it was mentioned that some people have a particular knack for the craft, I immediately thought of you, GrandmaArial. Your posts indicate an understanding of what you are doing and your knowledge of plants is a huge bonus. As for you selling after 30 batches of soap, I say "hats off to you!" I wish you much success.e Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soapmaker Man Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 Wess stated and true, Grandma!Paul.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salli Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 GrandmaArial, thank you for your post. It gave me a very good frame of reference for making a final decision. I am definitely not ready to start selling at this point. I wish you much luck.Everyone, thank you for your advice and opinions.salli Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesoapbox Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 If you want a prime example, look at Wal-Mart. Some people love them (I happen to be one of them), others absolutely hate them to the point of boycotting them.Everytime I go to Walmart with my husband we always stand in line and say "OMG I hate this place". Mainly because we are the 10th person in line and out of 25 registers only 2 are open. But the kicker is, we STILL keep going back Now, I love Target and my husband absolutely hates it...why?..you're gonna laugh..he received an email stating how poorly Target treats Guard soldiers who are called up for deployment in regards to their positions at Target. Now...I showed him that it was debunked on Snopes but oh no, he believes it OMG! So he will literally wait in the car for me when I go into Target for something lol.Sorry to highjack the post but the Walmart comment made me chuckle because of my thoughts everytime I am in Walmart lol.Angi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherry Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 What? :sad2: :sad2: What I will tell you I have been in business for a long long time sewing professionally Dresses Pants Shirts and anything you can imagine for a fewindustrial good companies i have seen many many very good people that truly want you to be a success and a few that are not. Five years ago i decided to quit the sewing and go in to candles scented teddies and now soap i stop making candles i was not enjoying it but i love making soap. :yay: And gust what; i get the same thing on this board people talking about wen to sale soap in another board there questioning the mp soap Is it handmade or not. The though of a 60 year old lady with 4 grandchildren is if a newbie like me and others asks a question don't discouraged her or him try to help them like most of the people do on this board if they ask it is because they know you can help that's allthanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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