USPS policies?

[Ring of Fire]

I agree. The fact these policies have already been in place makes me think these companies didn't even bother to check the regulations. Kathy at ICS seems to be the only one who already knew these regulations and they have been implemented for some time on her site.

Just order all your supplies at once and it's always cheaper UPS anyway.

[sugarysweet95]

Just order all your supplies at once and it's always cheaper UPS anyway.

I think i'm more just annoyed as to how it's all happened so suddenly. A week last saturday i was quoted, on the on line help, about $24 US to ship 30 sample FOs to the UK, surface mail. I therefore spent ages choosing my FOs and put my order in a few days later, using my credit card.

Last night i got an email saying they no longer ship USPS so it would be $80+ to ship via UPS. I immediately emailed back saying to cancel my order - i'm not paying $80 just to ship some FOs!!! As yet i still haven't heard back from them about cancelling my order - so for all i know they may just put the order through anyway at $60 more for postage!!!!

I'm also very much concerned on whether the other suppliers will follow suit and ban USPS for shipping FOs. In the UK it is just not viable to ship via UPS unless you want an awful awful lot of stuff (and can also afford to pay all the inport duty you are subsequently charged). Therefore, if other suppliers follow suit, i won't be able to afford to order any of there FOs in future. This means that there isn't any point in me doing thorough testing with their oils i have got, as i won't be able to afford them again.

This uncertaincy is very annoying and i know the suppliers have to follow the law, i would expect nothing else, but as to shipping FOs that are legally allowed to be shipped? This I believe should continue, as the suppliers should meet the demands of their customers, and many many people will be affected by this.

So i suppose i just want to know what the other suppliers stance on this one is!

[jakalex]

These regs are nothing new.....just newly enforced. Maybe BCN, and every other supplier should have realized this a long time ago. Fact is, the law is the law and I don't fault them for their decision. I will be more upset with suppliers who ship inappropriately.

I just do not agree with part of this statement. As said in previous posts these are NOT new regulations as BCN has stated. In Doneens posts on her board and in her email she makes it sound like that it is illegal to ship FO's USPS which is not the case! Yes the law is the law so why doesn't BCN follow the law?

Anything above 200 flashpoint can ship US Priority no problem. Maybe if BCN would take the time to reconstruct their website and shopping cart...like ICS....and separate the low flashpoint FO's it would be alot more simple to separate for shipping. I think she has overly exaggerated the regulations and does not understand them. JMO

This is pretty self explanatory to me:

343 Flammable and Combustible Liquids

(Hazard Class 3)

b. Combustible Liquid means any liquid that does not meet the definition of any other hazard class and has a flashpoint above 141° F (60.5° C) and below 200° F (93° C). A flammable liquid with a flashpoint at or above 100° F (38° C) that does not meet the definition of any other hazard class may be reclassified as a combustible liquid per 49 CFR 173.120(.

Note: A liquid with a flashpoint above 200° F (93° C) is not regulated as a hazardous material and may be mailed subject to the general packaging requirements in DMM 601.1 through 601.8, provided it possesses no characteristics of another hazard class.

343.22 Requirements for Combustible Liquids

Above 141° F (60.5° C) but not more than 200° F (93°C) Acceptable (with restrictions) for domestic mail via air transportation or surface transportation. Follow requirements for Packaging Instruction 3B in Appendix C, as applicable.

[girlyracer]

OK guys. Last week I received 25 1oz samplers from Candlesource. They were shipped via USPS AND on the customs form declared quite clearly as Fragrance Oil. Now I don't know what the flash points were but they got to me no problem. The package arrived intact. No attempt had been made to open them.

Maybe it's a case that some suppliers have got their act together and others haven't. It would appear, though, that BCN are scaremongering. One thing for sure, as far as us non-US chandlers are concerned, if they all go the UPS routes, we'll have to knock it all on the head as we won't be able to afford to get anything.

UK FOs suck and the suppliers that have decent oils do so because they get them from the States. They will have to factor the increased shipping in their prices. How long before they stop trading because the prices are going to be too high?

Ruby

[NattyCat]

This is very true Ruby. The suppliers in the UK who do good oils get them from the USA. Jo at Sensory Pefection has just given up her full time job to concentrate on doing Sensory Perfection - so what happens if she's no longer able to get her cheap oils from the USA? Or has to charge 3 times as much? I like Jo and am a bit worried for her, as this could be a massive blow to her business.

At the moment it's only bittercreek and peaks - and whilst their oils are good, they are not the only suppliers, so they have just gone and lost a whole lot of business because they can't be bothered to get their act together and realise that it's not THAT hard to decipher the regulations. We'll just have to wait and see.

The only thing I am concerned about is on the rare occasion I need to buy an oil from a UK supplier, that the only place they get their oils from would be Gemlite or other such cheapo places - their oils are low quality and cause a lot of smoking - this is a blow to the UK candle industry if that is the only quality of oil available to chandlers over here. I think I'll stick to my manufacturer. Who knows, maybe I should start up a fragrance oil business - I know my oils are top notch and comparable in price to those in the USA!

[Wendy Shoofitz]

FOH just added parcel post. Now there is a supplier going out of her way to help this situation and also shipping USPS for the oils within the regulations.

Don't hold your breath for BCN to fix their website, they have been working on it for years with absolutely no progress. For them to even attempt to run their site like ICS and others concerning FO's, is like pissing in the wind.

[sugarysweet95]

Who knows, maybe I should start up a fragrance oil business - I know my oils are top notch and comparable in price to those in the USA!

Hehe - maybe you should? I've been worrying about getting hold of my FOs, but completely hadn't realised that even buying good FOs in this country may go up as most of thier oils are from the US too. That creates lots of problems for me, and i'm only just starting out!!! I can scarcely imagine what it must be like for people who've devoted their business to this!!!

As to FOH - I think they've always had rules in place as to what FOs can / can't be shipped. I know it's a smaller company, but if suppliers want to keep a lot of their customers, i believe they should try to look into altering their website etc to allow USPS. It's amazing what a difference in cost it makes!!!

[gloworm]

I suppose it is because we are a new FO supplier that came into our business after 911 that we are more aware of the regulations. That and my son majored in Safety Science in college and he knew already that there would be restrictions ( I didn't). We researched extensively when we began and got a whole lot of help from some of the members here on CT. We never gave any thought to NOT following the shipping regs although in the beginning I did have several people angry with me because we wouldn't ship illegally to Canada. Apparently they had gotten FO elsewhere with no problem and were upset that we weren't going to comply. The fines are astronomical and frankly any company who ships illegally is very foolish. One leaking bottle and you could be out some BIG bucks. Hence most of my packages are shipping parcel post. We only have a handful of FO with a lower FP but they are some of our most popular fragrances. You may buy 10 samples and only one is the lower FP but the whole package now goes parcel post. We have a choice here, UPS for faster shipping or parcel post for economical shipping. I shipped UPS in the beginning before we had a handle on the USPS regs and had lots of requests for USPS for economies sake. Now lately the post office has been EXTREMELY slow in delivering some of my packages and I am now getting requests for UPS shipping. UPS is much more lax in their regulations. And once again these regulations are not new-apparently the only new thing is that most suppliers are now deciding to comply with the regs.

GLo

[girlyracer]

Hi Natasha

Jo at Sensory Pefection has just given up her full time job to concentrate on doing Sensory Perfection - so what happens if she's no longer able to get her cheap oils from the USA? Or has to charge 3 times as much? I like Jo and am a bit worried for her, as this could be a massive blow to her business.

This would be a shame seeing as she's gone full time. I've ordered so bits from her but have never used her oils. Are they any good?

The only thing I am concerned about is on the rare occasion I need to buy an oil from a UK supplier, that the only place they get their oils from would be Gemlite or other such cheapo places - their oils are low quality and cause a lot of smoking

I've heard this about Gemlite. One to avoid then.

Who knows, maybe I should start up a fragrance oil business - I know my oils are top notch and comparable in price to those in the USA!

If you do there'll be quite a few takers from the UK and European members here:D

Ruby

[Sherri in Canada]

FOH just added parcel post. Now there is a supplier going out of her way to help this situation and also shipping USPS for the oils within the regulations.

Don't hold your breath for BCN to fix their website, they have been working on it for years with absolutely no progress. For them to even attempt to run their site like ICS and others concerning FO's, is like pissing in the wind.

I agree Wendy....Kim even took the time to email me privately to let me know that she wasn't turning her back on us Canadians and would do whatever she could "legally" do to help us....now there's a top notch seller!! and Kathy at ICS has never been anything but top notch in my book.

[Cissy]

I can understand all the UK candlemakers being upset and worried, but please put the blame where it really belongs, with the USPS laws. Please be considerate of a suppliers' reputation before you plant negative thoughts into others' minds, especially newbies, who might not have ever ordered from a supplier you mention.

I try to put myself in another business person's shoes. There is no supplier on earth who is going to please everyone in every way. I would not want to deal with one who does not follow the law. If they can't be trusted to do so, then how can I trust them? I'm sure BCN is in business, not only to make money just as us candlemakers are, but will do the best they can in the time frame they can, to service their customers. They have always gone out of their way to give me great service, and I am just a small-time customer of theirs. I do not wish to try to damage any business' reputation unless they willfully do me a disservice, because I know how I would feel if one of my customers did this to me. All I'm saying is, please try to remember this. Sometimes what we say or do to damage another can come home to us. I know many will be inconvenienced and hurt financially by these laws, but we can and will adjust somehow. That's just a part of life.

Nothing is guaranteed to stay the same. We just have to roll with the punches and hang in there until it gets better.

[TwinMom]

I am one of those Canadians and I hate the fees I get with UPS. So if the supplier won't ship USPS I see if they will use DHL. There shipping is a little more but you don't get hugh brokerage fees, DHL ends up cheaper in the end.

I agree. DHL is cheaper. The extra fees that get tacked on to ship to us is ridiculous! I end up paying more for shipping then my entire order half the time!

[girlyracer]

I can understand all the UK candlemakers being upset and worried, but please put the blame where it really belongs, with the USPS laws. Please be considerate of a suppliers' reputation before you plant negative thoughts into others' minds, especially newbies, who might not have ever ordered from a supplier you mention.

It's just my opinion and forgive me if I upset anyone. My comments aren't directed at anybody in particular.

I don't think any UK candlemaker has specifically blamed a particular supplier over USPS rules. Yes, a few of us are upset because any serious candlemaker based in the UK has to get their oils from US suppliers. We don't have the luxury that you guys over there have. You can pick and choose who you order from for wax, wicks, glass jars, etc. We have maybe 5 or 6 suppliers in the whole of the UK. They too import most of their supplies from the US. These regulations are going to seriously affect not only the UK candlemaker, hoping to run a small business from home but also, our half dozen odd suppliers could very well be forced out of the business.

As for damaging reputations I don't think there is any question of anyone here doing that. They seem to be doing that themselves. From what I understand these are not new regulations but have been in force for quite some time. These issues should have been addressed then. It doesn't really portray a professional image. If you use a postal/courier service you must know what goods are permissable at all times. Now if you have an account with any courier company you get notified of changes, even USPS would have sent out a letter explaining the new rules. I can understand individuals not being aware, but businesses who use USPS service on a regular basis should have known immediately and taken steps to fully understand.

Maybe this is being used as a convenient scapegoat for suppliers to drop USPS as a delivery option, who knows? What I do know is that it is causing panic and ultimately it is non-US customers who are going to suffer because of this. Can suppliers afford to lose international custom? Maybe we only make up a small percentage of their business and they aren't that bothered by it.

Food for thought. Why is it then that some suppliers have taken the time and trouble to advise customers which oils can be shipped USPS and which ones can't?

Ruby

[katinka]

Another bit of food for thought - some of us have ordered samples packs very recently (i.e. within the last week) and those have been shipped out, and about a week later we are now informed that we won't be able to order any oils from them - not even surface mail. This is really frustrating as my currency is about 8:1 dollar, making is very expensive for me even to test oils never mind ordering them. Don't get me wrong - it is my choice and I fully understand that. What I don't understand is that there is (bar one or two) very few suppliers on this site offering any form of comfort or any suggested alternatives whatsoever.

You have to understand we are not blaming the suppliers for the law, but we are somewhat upset that after having spent huge amounts of money (I personally have spent more than $5000 on this business and I don't even do it full time) on a business we hoped at some point would be sustainable, to suddenly hear that something so critical as fragrance might now not be available to us anymore. It's kind of like having a carpet ripped from under you, if you get what I mean?

Having said that, we are a resourceful bunch if nothing else and I firmly believe that we will find a way to overcome this. Maybe fragrance co-ops will be the answer - so we can buy from a big supplier and use a freight forwarder?

To all the others in the same boat as me - just hang in there, we'll find a way!

[cybersix]

As I said in another discussion I ordered 10 bottles at Peak the 13 of this month, they shipped it with surface mail and no one told me about limitations.

I understand that law is law, and being in italy where there are sooo much and useless laws helps me understand this.

The situation is worst for me, I couldn't even take advantage from NattyCat help.

Italian currency puts me in favor toward USD but GBP is so strong that I would pay a lot more in any case.

USPS was the only way to go.

I learned to order summer scents in winter having them shipped with surface mail that takes a lot to arrive, and viceversa.

The point is, I'm almost out of business, I sell few candles, it's more an hobby than a job, so I can't afford such high prices. That's it.

And in italy there are no all FOs you have. So it means saying farewell to all my dreams.

Buying in US is easier I don't have to have a tax ID, while here big company can sell to someone only if he has a tax ID.

I have no choice.

[Wendy Shoofitz]

I can understand all the UK candlemakers being upset and worried, but please put the blame where it really belongs, with the USPS laws. Please be considerate of a suppliers' reputation before you plant negative thoughts into others' minds, especially newbies, who might not have ever ordered from a supplier you mention.

I try to put myself in another business person's shoes. There is no supplier on earth who is going to please everyone in every way. I would not want to deal with one who does not follow the law. If they can't be trusted to do so, then how can I trust them? I'm sure BCN is in business, not only to make money just as us candlemakers are, but will do the best they can in the time frame they can, to service their customers. They have always gone out of their way to give me great service, and I am just a small-time customer of theirs. I do not wish to try to damage any business' reputation unless they willfully do me a disservice, because I know how I would feel if one of my customers did this to me. All I'm saying is, please try to remember this. Sometimes what we say or do to damage another can come home to us. I know many will be inconvenienced and hurt financially by these laws, but we can and will adjust somehow. That's just a part of life.

Nothing is guaranteed to stay the same. We just have to roll with the punches and hang in there until it gets better.

Cissy, did you not read and comprehend this thread? USPS is not to blame either. Where did you come up with that? They don't make their own regulations on these matters, the government does, as well as the airlines. Did you happen to read that email BCN sent out? No one is trying to ruin them. For them to say we should tell our other suppliers about this is ridiculous and unprofessional. These laws have been in place for years. Look at their site, they list all the flash points of all their oils. I do not think it would be too hard to fix their site saying ground only under the ones that can't go USPS and adjust their shopping cart accordingly. Is there something you just don't get? No one is talking about their customer service. I have always gotten great service from them.

[girlyracer]

Having said that, we are a resourceful bunch if nothing else and I firmly believe that we will find a way to overcome this. Maybe fragrance co-ops will be the answer - so we can buy from a big supplier and use a freight forwarder?

To all the others in the same boat as me - just hang in there, we'll find a way!

Yep gotta agree with you there. What we need is a bit of Dunkirk spirit!!!

Ruby

[BLSoaps]

Food for thought. Why is it then that some suppliers have taken the time and trouble to advise customers which oils can be shipped USPS and which ones can't?

If this is referring to BCN suddenly not shipping USPS at all, their own e-mail stated that they ARE working on a way to still legally ship the FOs that they can via USPS. But it's going to take some time to figure out a system not only for their packers, but also for website orders, to be able to fit into the USPS regulations. Until then, they've said no FOs shipping via USPS. But they did say they're working on it. This is from the email they sent their client/newsletter list.

"We are doing our best to investigate this further, and have tried contacting our local postmaster as well. Once we are confident that we have all of the new regulations completely spelled out and clarified, if there are any feasible ways for us to offer priority mail on certain products that meet the guidelines, we will try to do so. We hope you will bear with us while we get this figured out, and we are very sorry for the inconvenience."

So be patient with them. They're doing everything they can.

[sugarysweet95]

If this is referring to BCN suddenly not shipping USPS at all, their own e-mail stated that they ARE working on a way to still legally ship the FOs that they can via USPS. But it's going to take some time to figure out a system not only for their packers, but also for website orders, to be able to fit into the USPS regulations. Until then, they've said no FOs shipping via USPS. But they did say they're working on it. This is from the email they sent their client/newsletter list.

"We are doing our best to investigate this further, and have tried contacting our local postmaster as well. Once we are confident that we have all of the new regulations completely spelled out and clarified, if there are any feasible ways for us to offer priority mail on certain products that meet the guidelines, we will try to do so. We hope you will bear with us while we get this figured out, and we are very sorry for the inconvenience."

So be patient with them. They're doing everything they can.

That's good to know. Having only heard from BCN that they no longer wil ship USPS, this is looking better. I don't mind waiting a bit for them to try to get it sorted. After the communication i got from them, it seemed more like a like it or lump it situation. Hopefully the suppliers then will get it sorted and be able to offer USPS again - especially internationally!!!!

[Cissy]

Wendy

You're correct in that it is a govermental law, not USPS. My point, although I didn't state the source properly, is that it is the law.

Maybe you, with your expertise, could help BCN rush it up and fix their site for them. Get it?