USPS policies?

[eva]

So it is true - BCN does not ship oils via USPS anymore. I can not even begin to tell you how bad news this is for me. It is just too expensive to ship oils to Europe via UPS and I am really upset and do not know how to proceed. I used BCN for a number of my oils.

But my question to you is about USPS policies - BCN also said that the postal department has informed them they can no longer ship oils via USPS. I have seen this policy on some other suppliers websites also, but at the same time many others ship via USPS without any problems (BCN did also so far) Shouldn't the USPS policies be the same for everyone? Do not get me wrong, I am very glad some still ship via USPS, but I am afraid that maybe at one point they all quit doing so. Then I will be completely ruined....

Best,

Eva

(from Estonia)

[Wendy Shoofitz]

I still get a lot shipped USPS. I asked yesterday at my PO and they knew nothing about it. Who knows if any of this is true. Maybe they all are jumping on this bandwagon just to eliminate USPS so they can simplify thier life just using UPS.

[eva]

That is what I thought, but they are willing to ship everything else USPS, just not the oils. And with some other suppliers also it is the oils that seem to be the problem. That is why I was thinking of some policy change. I sure hope it is just a suppliers choice not a policy issue...

[Vicky_CO]

Guys the suppliers that are still shipping FOs USPS are doing so at their own risk. It not bull or made up to eliminate shipping USPS if you want to blame any one for it blame homeland security they have gone over board since 9/11. Any FO with a flash point of less than 200 falls under the new regs and the fines if caught are steep.

[RobinInOR]

There are laws about shipping combustible/flammable liquids, based on the flash point. Some POs enforce rigorously, some don't. Could be they've been told to crack down on actually enforcing it.

http://pe.usps.gov/text/pub52/pub52c3_004.html#NL508_26 has the rules, and they might be tighter for international.

Flammable has flashpoint 100F-141F. No air travel allowed.

Combustable has flashpoint 141F-200F

Many suppliers just won't deal with the headaches of which FO can go what method I guess.

[Crafty1_AJ]

Here's the kicker. Looks to me like only ONE bottle of fo can be sent at a time on flammable (flashpoints 100-141) or combustible (142-200). Only if all the fo's have a flashpoint above 200 can multiple items be shipped in the same package.

http://pe.usps.gov/text/pub52/pub52c_011.html#vnameref_1

[warmvanilla]

Each time I get an order in, delivered usps, my box or flat rate envelope is opened/searched through.

Once, I received an flat rate box that had -damaged when received- or something like that... The entire envelope was soaked in FO, and I'm sure they were not very happy. However, the supplier placed a label on the package that read- non toxic or whatever.

[Michi]

Each time I get an order in, delivered usps, my box or flat rate envelope is opened/searched through.

Once, I received an flat rate box that had -damaged when received- or something like that... The entire envelope was soaked in FO, and I'm sure they were not very happy. However, the supplier placed a label on the package that read- non toxic or whatever.

The supplier sent your FO in an envelope? Or box? I'm confused. If they sent it in an envelope, shame on them. I've never heard of any supplier sending anything (besides labels or paper maybe) in an envelope.

[BLSoaps]

You may want to contact BCN (or other suppliers) directly and ASK them if they'll still ship you FOs that are 201 degrees and up through USPS still.

I've been researching these regulations A LOT the last two months. We're adding Flavor Oils to our line, which will significantly change some of our shipping options.

I ended up being lucky in that only one out of the five flavors was less than 201 degrees. The bad news, it's 131, so it can ONLY ship ground. If it had been 141 or above, I could have still shipped air (priority) as long as it was only one bottle less than 32 oz. That one bottle can be combined with anything considered safe by USPS, which the other 201+ oils fall into this category.

So assuming you want USPS air service mail (priority or global - nothing "ground"), you should be able to order unlimited quantities of 201+ oils, and ONE bottle with a Flash Point of 141-200, as long as it's ONE bottle, and less than 32 oz. These are the policies for shipping within the states. Some countries add their own policies on top of this, so you will need to investigate those yourself. I know Canada has some pretty strict rules.

If BCN realizes they will lose your business all together, rather than allowing this kind of exception occasionally, well, it's definitely their loss. You never know what they'll be willing to do until you ask them though. I know I'd definitely work with you on this to keep you as a customer. I hope they will too.

[kittykat]

I was contacted directly via phone by BCN and they told me they no longer shipped FO's via USPS, period. I also expressed my concerns in a followup email but have heard nothing back.

I only ordered 1 16 oz bottle of FO and it has a flashpoint of greater than 200.

I don't know what volume of their FO orders come from Canada but it will be basically zero now.

I just hope that other suppliers like yourself SoapersWorkshop will be as accommodating.

Geez, most of my fragrances come from the US. I'd seriously have to wonder if I could continue in this biz if I get cut off. Two + years of testing down the drain

[jrogers397]

alot of companies have employees that ship for them, I know the fines are like 35,000 and up for failure to follow the reg's if caught. I know being a manager it is not something I would trust my employees to do, that is probably why alot of suppliers just are saying no to using usps altogether, now if you get a supplier that does his/her own shipping then they will probably be more accomodating because they are handling the product themselves and know if they are following the rules properly. I can surely sympathize with those out of the country it is gonna be rough to get a decent price and you can only take so many mark-ups on your products. Hoping this works itself out.

Janis

[eva]

BCN told me that they will not ship oils via USPS - no air, no ground.

- The postal department has informed us that we areno longer able to ship fragrance oils by mail of any kind -It probably just is that they are not willing to play with the flashpoint stuff.

So I had to use UPS Expedited that cost me about 100$ more than usual....

I will gradually start to replace the oils that can be replaced to other suppliers' oils that still ship USPS. I really-really hope my other major suppliers will not change their policies.

I just hate when things like this happen:cry2:

Best,

Eva

[Sherri in Canada]

I have to find replacements for about 15 oils that I carried from there and were umong my top sellers. I had ups ship 3 bottles of oil from there by mistake last year and it ended up costing me an additional 42.00 in brokerage fees so it's definitely not something I can afford to do.....I hate the thought of testing again because i was really happy with what i was getting but looks like I won't be able to afford BCN anymore :undecided

[eva]

Hi Sherri,

sorry to hear you are in this position also. I also use about 10 of their oils. I am especially sad for the WYW and BNL oils... And I also do not like the idea of testing all over again. I guess I will be moving over to the fragrance section soon to ask for some advice on certain oils. But some of their oils I have to keep I guess and pay that extra $ as they are my best sellers and probably impossible to replace.

[BLSoaps]

I have a totally weird suggestion. If you KNOW the Flash Points on the oils you want are high enough to ship legally via USPS, you might want to see if you can find someone local to BCN (or other companies), and see if they might be willing to pick up the FOs and ship to you (using USPS). I'd recommend offering them a little something (like a brokerage fee...is that the right term???) for doing you the favor. Even if you have to pay them 5% above the order cost, it's quite a bit less than the outrageous fees that UPS and FedEx tack onto your deliveries in Canada.

I hope you're able to work something out. If I were anywhere near them, I'd volunteer. If we ever start carrying Fragrance Oils (we've just got flavor oils for lip balms right now), I know I'll do whatever I can to accomodate "problems" like this. Customers always come first.

[warmvanilla]

The supplier sent your FO in an envelope? Or box? I'm confused. If they sent it in an envelope, shame on them. I've never heard of any supplier sending anything (besides labels or paper maybe) in an envelope.

Well, it's a flat rate envelope. does that make a difference?

each time I order, comes like this. And always leak.

I could snap a photo if your unsure which envelope I mean.

[Sag_77]

I am one of those Canadians and I hate the fees I get with UPS. So if the supplier won't ship USPS I see if they will use DHL. There shipping is a little more but you don't get hugh brokerage fees, DHL ends up cheaper in the end.

[kittykat]

DHL is no better than UPS, for me at least. They are both courier services so they both charge brokerage fees. The only difference with DHL is that you get the bill for brokerage about a month later, UPS you have to pay upfront.

[BLSoaps]

I got an e-mail from Bitter Creek this morning (a general e-mail sent to all on their newsletter list I believe), discussing the USPS shipping regulations. It sounds like they may try to ship the FOs with high enough flash points via USPS down the road, but they're still sorting through all the regulations (they're next to impossible to read and understand). I understand their caution, but they ARE Wokring on making sure of their options. By the sounds of it, they have definitely been following this thread, as they mentioned the specific hardship this places on their Canadian and International customers. So it sounds like we just need to be patient. They promised updates through their newsletter and on their website.

Here, however, is a link to the USPS's site regarding these regulations.

USPS Combustible Liquid Regulations

[Cissy]

I just received one 2-oz FO bottle today USPS. It was shipped to me in a plain manilla envelope, didn't even have any bubble wrap, only an invoice in the envelope. It did have a 200 FP though. Anyone could easily tell it was a bottle of liquid, but it had not been tampered with or opened by USPS nor did the envelope have any notation on it. USPS is apparently missing checking some of them out. For sometime, though, my local PO always asks me when I'm shipping a package, if it contains anything flammable. I understand suppliers not taking any chances and getting fined.

Forgive me if this has been discussed elsewhere already, but does this new law affect the shipping of tarts containing oil with less than 200 FP, or does it pertain to liquids only? I wouldn't think so, or jar candles could never be shipped by USPS. (I'll read the USPS regulations link later, have to get some sleep now).

[Ring of Fire]

My take on this is BCN probably shipped a package that leaked before reaching the consumer. Then they sent this letter to BCN. I asked at my PO and was told these regulations have been in effect for years, nothing new.

So you Canadians may have BCN to blame for everyone jumping on the bandwagon since BCN has them scared shitless now.

[sugarysweet95]

Hmmm, this is very worrying. Luckily i haven't actually tried any BCN or peak oils yet. I'm worried though that other suppliers may no longer use USPS now. In the UK FOs are much more expensive and we simply don't have the same range or complexity of fragrances. Shipping a few bottles of FO via anything other than USPS is just ridiculously expensive!!!

At least i'm just starting on selling my candles properly, so i'll be able to adjust. It must be really difficult for those of you already set up!

So lets hope other suppliers don't stop shipping FOs via usps!!!!

[BLSoaps]

So lets hope other suppliers don't stop shipping FOs via usps!!!!

While I certainly hope that other suppliers are able to be flexible enough to still ship FOs via USPS that are SAFE to ship, I hope they don't decide to blatantly break the law just because we want them to. Not only would this open them up to insane fees and legal problems, it also could ultimately make it so they decide to change the regulations, making it even stricter than they already are. They could simply say no, regardless of the flash point. If you can't obey the rules when they were flexible, then we won't let you ship at all. Trust me, it could be much worse. I can see why BCN has simply said no FOs at all via USPS. Trying to set up the shopping cart to know which oils can or cannot be shipped USPS, well, I'm not even sure it would be possible. And trying to tell us to be aware when we're ordering (to only choose oils with flash points over 201 degrees if we want to ship USPS), well, as ideal as that may be, I can guarantee someone will screw it up, intentionally or not.

For someone small, like me, helping my customers out with the shipping regulations on this, well, it's easy. For someone the size of BCN, it's got to be a nightmare. They're not doing this to torture us, they're doing this so they can legally stay in business. Yeah, it sucks, big time, but if we're going to get angry with anyone, it should be the Post Office and the Government. BCN is just following the regulations that have been laid out. The other companies that are illegally shipping FOs via USPS (and it's not all FOs...it's possible that some companies may switch to carrying only FOs with 201+ Flash Points), well, they do so at their own risk, and also risk having the regulations getting even stricter if the govt decides to crack down on it.

Sorry I'm getting upset. Yes, the new regulations suck, but there are reasons for them (everything got stricter after 9/11... if you think this is bad, try the airport!). Hoping that FO companies ignore them so they'll still ship you your FOs via USPS, well, I won't say it, cuz it's not nice. Hoping they'll do something illegal, it's just not smart.

(Please note, all of this was intended in the nicest way possible. As a supplier, although not of FOs, but a very frequent buyer of FOs, this affects me as well. I don't like it, but I also know the importance of following the regulations that have been set in place for us. I just hated to see suppliers getting bashed for following the law. I was not attacking or chastising anyone, so please do not take anything I have said in that context.)

[sugarysweet95]

While I certainly hope that other suppliers are able to be flexible enough to still ship FOs via USPS that are SAFE to ship, I hope they don't decide to blatantly break the law just because we want them to. Not only would this open them up to insane fees and legal problems, it also could ultimately make it so they decide to change the regulations, making it even stricter than they already are. They could simply say no, regardless of the flash point. If you can't obey the rules when they were flexible, then we won't let you ship at all. Trust me, it could be much worse. I can see why BCN has simply said no FOs at all via USPS. Trying to set up the shopping cart to know which oils can or cannot be shipped USPS, well, I'm not even sure it would be possible. And trying to tell us to be aware when we're ordering (to only choose oils with flash points over 201 degrees if we want to ship USPS), well, as ideal as that may be, I can guarantee someone will screw it up, intentionally or not.

For someone small, like me, helping my customers out with the shipping regulations on this, well, it's easy. For someone the size of BCN, it's got to be a nightmare. They're not doing this to torture us, they're doing this so they can legally stay in business. Yeah, it sucks, big time, but if we're going to get angry with anyone, it should be the Post Office and the Government. BCN is just following the regulations that have been laid out. The other companies that are illegally shipping FOs via USPS (and it's not all FOs...it's possible that some companies may switch to carrying only FOs with 201+ Flash Points), well, they do so at their own risk, and also risk having the regulations getting even stricter if the govt decides to crack down on it.

Sorry I'm getting upset. Yes, the new regulations suck, but there are reasons for them (everything got stricter after 9/11... if you think this is bad, try the airport!). Hoping that FO companies ignore them so they'll still ship you your FOs via USPS, well, I won't say it, cuz it's not nice. Hoping they'll do something illegal, it's just not smart.

(Please note, all of this was intended in the nicest way possible. As a supplier, although not of FOs, but a very frequent buyer of FOs, this affects me as well. I don't like it, but I also know the importance of following the regulations that have been set in place for us. I just hated to see suppliers getting bashed for following the law. I was not attacking or chastising anyone, so please do not take anything I have said in that context.)

Yes of course i understand the companies must obey the laws! But i read that flashpoints over 141 F can be shippied internally via USPS and over 200 F abroad. I don't see why, maybe given time to sort it all out, a website can't be able to tell the difference. At indiana candle supply, they have a seperate group stated as ground shipping only and i tried to use other methods of shipping (as a test) and it just wouldn't work - so it's obviously possible to do. So i think, if the suppliers are really interested in keeping customers, they could look into this at least.

It does get more complicated with shipping FOs abroad, as they have to be over 200 F, but as most sites require international orders (at least out of N. America) to be done seperately anyway, this could be sorted out as well.

The flash points can easily be put on the label (most already are anyway) and i don't think it would be too hard for staff to just quickly check the flash point of the FOs when the item is packed anyway, as a final precaution!!!!

I suppose i just feel that a blanket ban on all shipping of FOs via USPS is a bit steep and i hope that the other suppliers still stick with using USPS and of course still stick with the law!!!

[Beth-VT]

But i read that flashpoints over 141 F can be shippied internally via USPS and over 200 F abroad.

Yes, IF packaged accordingly.

It's not just shipping oils between 141-200....it's the packaging required, the limit on one primary container and dealing with orders that may include FP's in all three area's. Customers are bitching because they won't ship USPS anymore, but they'll bitch when they have to have an order shipped in 2 different boxes because of the restrictions. Not to mention the fact that the increased packaging would probably add enough weight to increase the cost enough to make UPS rates equal.

Yes it's a bummer for samples.....so we'll just have to add them on to an order worth shipping UPS. International orders will see the biggest impact, not much to be done about it.

These regs are nothing new.....just newly enforced. Maybe BCN, and every other supplier should have realized this a long time ago. Fact is, the law is the law and I don't fault them for their decision. I will be more upset with suppliers who ship inappropriately.

On the down side.....this will certainly put a crimp in the FO co-ops around here, lol.