I need a pep talk :)

[calan]

I've spent around 40 years designing and building race cars, telescopes, guitars, shop buildings, software, websites, precision target ammo, and everything in between.... and nothing has kicked my ass more than trying to get a clean-burning, scent throwing, stupid candle with only 4 simple components.  lol

Someone please spoon-feed me a recipe for a nice, clean, smelly candle using a 9 oz straight-sided jar with Problend 600, IGI 4630, or GW 444 wax...or any blend of them (I'm even open to a completely new approach, if those are just fundementally flawed waxes). I don't even care what FO or what wick series...I have samples of almost all of them.  

And BTW - I have a whole new respect for those of you that have achieved this.
 

(not quite as frustrated as it sounds... just a long day  )

Edited November 22, 2019 by calan

[TallTayl]

Welcome to the very old, very familiar sounding club 🤣 former Aerospace IT person here. It makes more sense how a bumblebee flies than how some of these candles work.  Must be magic.

 

I’d pick 444 and cd wicks.  Now 444 has varied terribly between lots for me, mostly due to excess moisture in the wax.  I’ll assume your 444 is ok. All 444 wax makes cavities as it cools. Make sure to poke holes when it cools and repour to fill them up or all will be for nothing.

 

if you’re a process oriented person, make a plain old 444, nothing else candle to learn the wax as-is. This will make the next step much easier. It also helps identify if your wax lot is problematic. You’ll read advice here on this forum against testing one single baseline wax variable, and it’s your choice to try to skip this step.  after years of failed candles because of a simple to diagnose wax variation, I’d just do it.  
 

CD 7 or 8 should be a decent starting point for that container.  If your wax lot is on the harder to burn end of the spectrum, cd 9 or 10. Do not judge the wick by the first burns. Things go to hell quickly by the middle and fail miserably in the last third if overwicked at the start looking for the full immediate melt pool. Most problems people have with bad throw and soot are from overwicking, 

 

When you’ve dialed in your wicks, For FO, an easy thrower would likely be a floral or cologne. 6-8%. Resist the temptation to go higher,

 

Depending on the FO you choose, I’d start with CD 7, 8 or 9. 
 

give it time to cure no matter what you’re doing.  The second biggest mistake people make is impatience, testing too soon. 
 

good luck!

[bfroberts]

Zinc wicks work great with 4630.  Something in the 44-32 range should get you started in the 9oz ss jar.  Most any good FO will throw at 6%.  Don't try to burn it immediately.  Give it a few days to settle in.  Then light the candle, put it in a bedroom, shut the door and give it a few minutes to throw.  It'll work.

[lightmyfire]

10 hours ago, calan said:

I've spent around 40 years designing and building race cars, telescopes, guitars, shop buildings, software, websites, precision target ammo, and everything in between.... and nothing has kicked my ass more than trying to get a clean-burning, scent throwing, stupid candle with only 4 simple components.  lol

Someone please spoon-feed me a recipe for a nice, clean, smelly candle using a 9 oz straight-sided jar with Problend 600, IGI 4630, or GW 444 wax...or any blend of them (I'm even open to a completely new approach, if those are just fundementally flawed waxes). I don't even care what FO or what wick series...I have samples of almost all of them.  

And BTW - I have a whole new respect for those of you that have achieved this.
 

(not quite as frustrated as it sounds... just a long day  )

I love your post--thank you for being so open, honest and transparent.  We ALL feel this way whether novice or seasoned in this craft.  Just when you think you've got it nailed, something will just change for NO GOOD REASON.  It keeps you from getting cocky 

[calan]

10 hours ago, bfroberts said:

Zinc wicks work great with 4630.  Something in the 44-32 range should get you started in the 9oz ss jar.  Most any good FO will throw at 6%.  Don't try to burn it immediately.  Give it a few days to settle in.  Then light the candle, put it in a bedroom, shut the door and give it a few minutes to throw.  It'll work.

You are just bound and determined to turn me to the dark side and those infernal atomic-bomb looking zinc wicks aren't you? 

Can't remember if I tried them in 4630 or not, but I tried multiple sizes in the other two waxes with multiple FO's/percentages and two or three different jars, all with the same results...a big black golfball... even when the wick wouldn't create a full MP after 4 burns.

I trust your advice and I'll give them another shot though. 

Edited November 23, 2019 by calan

[bfroberts]

1 minute ago, calan said:

You are just bound and determined to turn me to the dark side and those infernal atomic-bomb looking zinc wicks aren't you? 

Can't remember if I tried them in 4630 or not, but I tried multiple sizes in the other two waxes with multiple FO's and two or three different jars, all with the same results...a big black golfball... even when the wick wouldn't create a full MP after 4 burns.

I trust your advice and I'll give them another shot though. 

 

Well....if you are that averse to the trusty ole zinc, try LX 16 (ish). That'll getcha close too.   

Here's the thing.  There will always be something not to love.  If you go with a self trimming wick, you'll get the curl and potentially an off center MP which I find maddening in smaller containers.  One side gets too hot, the wick can lean, yadda yadda.  I don't find the self trimming feature to be all that reliably self trimming, truth be told.   With zinc, keeping the FO load at 6% AND making sure you aren't overwicked AND giving the candle a good cure time will decrease the mushrooming.  

You know what else will help improve the burn of the softer waxes?  Add a little bit of a harder wax, like a votive wax, 4794 or something like that....if you happen to have some laying around.

 

 

[calan]

16 minutes ago, bfroberts said:

 

You know what else will help improve the burn of the softer waxes?  Add a little bit of a harder wax, like a votive wax, 4794 or something like that....if you happen to have some laying around.

 

 

I have some Problend 650, that is the same 52/48 blend as the 600, but harder. I use it for melts and it works really well. But, it's not just a harder parafin. It's about half soy, so I know that would throw everything off.

Now that I think about it, I may still have a little IGI 1230 (pure parafin) laying around from a non-candle project a few years back. Not sure about it in candles, but it's definitely hard parafin.

Edited November 23, 2019 by calan

[calan]

22 minutes ago, bfroberts said:

 

Well....if you are that averse to the trusty ole zinc, try LX 16 (ish). That'll getcha close too.   

 

Well that's weird. It's like you know what you are talking about or something.  

LX-16 with the 4630, and an LX-18 with the ProBlend are about the best wicks I've tried (and a Premier 750 or 755 isn't horrible), but they still seem to be unpredictable. They'll be fine for 2/3 of the candle, and then get too hot and/or sooty. And if I drop one size, they never develop a full MP and start tunneling.

I like the way the ECO's burn, but they are usually hot and all over the place, with not enough adjustments. I need an ECO 5, or ECO 4-1/2. 

I'm measuring MP temps, burn rates, and everything else, and keeping track of everything in some software I wrote on the backend of an Excel spreadsheet. It's interesting to see the correlation between that data. It seems that for any given jar size and no matter what wax, wick, or FO... if I can get close to a certain burn rate and MP temp, the candle looks good. The problem is hitting those targets repeatedly.

 

Edited November 23, 2019 by calan

[bfroberts]

Before what is known at my house as "The Big Switch Of 2019," I was using LX in 6006 and zinc in 4630, with the occasional interchange.  At one time or another, I've tried everything in both, so I've seen a bit. 

 

IDK how the 1230 would work with 4630. I know the 1230 probably can't hold much FO, so you'd have to keep the % fairly low.  It's worth a shot. 

With the blend I do, it helps the burn but also helps adhesion and overall appearance.  

 

The Big Switch means ditching the 6006 & 4630 in favor of CW's waxes, which are largely the same yet vastly different.  It's been fun.  
Not.
  

 

 

[calan]

What do you think about blending some of the 4630 with the Problend 600?

The PB600 is 52/48 parafin to soy (IIRC), and is nice..other than not a lot of scent with the FO's I've tried. The exception is FC's Coffee House, which is just excellent and would probably throw like crazy in a candle made of water.

I'm wondering if adding some of the 4630 to it would up the throw a bit, without changing things up too much?

[bfroberts]

6 minutes ago, calan said:

What do you think about blending some of the 4630 with the Problend 600?

The PB600 is 52/48 parafin to soy (IIRC), and is nice..other than not a lot of scent with the FO's I've tried. The exception is FC's Coffee House, which is just excellent and would probably throw like crazy in a candle made of water.

I'm wondering if adding some of the 4630 to it would up the throw a bit, without changing things up too much?

 

 

I have never worked with PB600.  The closest thing I've done is adding 4630 to 6006, which was a folly that resulted in nothing favorable, IMO.  But if you're not happy with what you've got, you don't have anything to lose.
The PB waxes I've tried poured beautifully, but were too finicky with FO's, and I cut them out of my life foreva....LOL

 

  

 

[calan]

20 minutes ago, bfroberts said:

The PB waxes I've tried poured beautifully, but were too finicky with FO's, and I cut them out of my life foreva....LOL

Exactly the results I'm seeing with it too. (The 650 seems good for the melts though).

I've been testing with Apple Cinnamon from FC, Coffee House from FC, and Fireplace from NG. I have lots of other FO's, but have been using these three to try and get some kind of baseline for how they work with different wax/wick combinations.

The Coffee House smells excellent in everything; I'm just trying to get the burn to look right. The Apple Cinnamon has basically no hot or cold throw, no matter what I try.

The Fireplace is the really strange one. I made one candle with it in a small 4 oz jar and a wooden wick with the PB600 that was excellent. I've made three more since then in the 9 oz jars, from 6% up to 10%, and none of them have any scent throw AT ALL, but nice burns and MP's. I have to put my face over the flame and light my beard on fire to get even a hint of anything coming off them. I just don't get it. The only thing different between the first one and these three is that the FO came from a different bottle. The first was a 1 oz sample, these from an 8 oz bottle, both from NG. Would a different FO batch cause such radically different results?

All of them smell incredibly strong while mixing though (usually added at right around 175 degrees).

It's a black art for sure. 

Edited November 23, 2019 by calan

[bfroberts]

12 hours ago, calan said:

Would a different FO batch cause such radically different results?

Unless there was a reformulation between bottles, I wouldn't think so.  I've had that happen a few times.  I'd get a sample, love it, then order a larger bottle and it would seem lackluster.  Best course of action for me was to just put it away for a while and revisit it later.  Usually, I've determined the fault was my nose.  Have you given someone else a tester to try?  

[Sarah S]

Is there a specific reason why you're using the Problend?

I just ask cause it seems like you don't enjoy working with it. 

[calan]

4 hours ago, bfroberts said:

Usually, I've determined the fault was my nose.  Have you given someone else a tester to try?  

Not yet... just me and my significant other here, but we both notice the same thing. Fireplace was great that one time, nothing at all now. Same with the other scents.

Edited November 23, 2019 by calan

[calan]

2 hours ago, Sarah S said:

Is there a specific reason why you're using the Problend?

Not really. I was just looking around for other waxes to try, and it had great reviews. I was placing an order with FC for some FO and wicks, and had good luck with the PB 650 I tried for tarts, so I just picked up PB 600 to try.

It really is a nice wax as far as appearance and to work with. It's just picky about FO's I think. As mentioned, the Coffee House is excellent, but the others are literally non-existent, all else being equal.

 

I have no ties to any particular type of wax; it's just sort of where I've ended up so far. I wouldn't mind trying something better for the tarts either, but the PB 650 is "ok" and I've been consumed with trying to get a nice candle. So, I haven't explored the best options for those yet. 

****

I poured a couple more candles to test (including one with the zinc you suggested), and I think I'm making a little progress with the 4630... but of course after a night of interweb browsing I'm now wondering if I should try some 4636 (J-50 I think?). Does it ever end?  lol

Edited November 23, 2019 by calan

[CandleRush]

No it never ends but it’s fun most days! You sound like the rest of us, so many choices!

[Sarah S]

Well, if you like pre-blended waxes and you don't have a hate on for paraffin, I highly recommend Candlewic's waxes. The CBL 125 is easy to pour, looks great, and throws like a champ. The CBL 129 requires a second pour, but has a lovely white appearance and zero wet spots. Oh yeah, and throws like a champ. 😁

Their parasoy, CBL 130 is also a beautiful one-pour wax with zero wet spots. For a parasoy, it throws very well.

I don't get any kickback from Candlewic. 😉😄 I just really love their waxes!

 

Maybe if the Problend isn't working for you, it's time to try another blend? IGI's 4630 is a good wax too, and most oils throw very well in it. Maybe stick with that one for a bit, and try some different wicks and FOs. For a while I thought all my candles were sooty gross messes, and I was getting frustrated. The new I tested a couple fragrances outside my norm, and suddenly the candles were gorgeous. Turns out I love vanillas, ambers, spices, and resins - all the trickiest FOs to wick. 😅😅

[calan]

37 minutes ago, Sarah S said:

Well, if you like pre-blended waxes and you don't have a hate on for paraffin, I highly recommend Candlewic's waxes. The CBL 125 is easy to pour, looks great, and throws like a champ. The CBL 129 requires a second pour, but has a lovely white appearance and zero wet spots. Oh yeah, and throws like a champ. 😁

Their parasoy, CBL 130 is also a beautiful one-pour wax with zero wet spots. For a parasoy, it throws very well.

I don't get any kickback from Candlewic. 😉😄 I just really love their waxes!

 

Maybe if the Problend isn't working for you, it's time to try another blend? IGI's 4630 is a good wax too, and most oils throw very well in it. Maybe stick with that one for a bit, and try some different wicks and FOs. For a while I thought all my candles were sooty gross messes, and I was getting frustrated. The new I tested a couple fragrances outside my norm, and suddenly the candles were gorgeous. Turns out I love vanillas, ambers, spices, and resins - all the trickiest FOs to wick. 😅😅

Yeah, I'm leaning towards the 4630 so far...definitely don't have a problem with straight parafin, as long as it doesn't soot like crazy. I actually have another thread I started about 4630, compared to the 4633 and 4636, but haven't gotten any responses yet.

I picked up the PB600 because I was buying some other stuff at FC, but I'm going to try and use Lonestar, since they are close and shipping is much less. But, they mainly have all the IGI stuff. So I'll also have to find a good tart wax to replace the first stuff I got (PB650, which is super easy to use and seems to work "ok"), but that is another story. 

I'm really starting to wonder if it's not just the Apple Cinnamon FO I'm testing with. It just won't throw...period. Doesn't matter what wax, what wick, what jar...even melts. Cure or no cure, etc. Smells great in the bottle, and has good CT in 4630 (smells just like Glade's candles or air freshner)...but once you put heat to it it has zero scent. 

I made a couple more PB600 test candles with different FO's to try, so we'll see.

Edited November 24, 2019 by calan

[calan]

39 minutes ago, Sarah S said:

The CBL 125 is easy to pour, looks great, and throws like a champ. The CBL 129 requires a second pour, but has a lovely white appearance and zero wet spots. Oh yeah, and throws like a champ. 😁

Do you have a preference for one or the other, other than what you mentioned? Why would you choose 129 over 125, unless you just want the nice white color at the expense of a second pour? Is the 129 harder and good for melts?

[Sarah S]

22 hours ago, calan said:

Do you have a preference for one or the other, other than what you mentioned? Why would you choose 129 over 125, unless you just want the nice white color at the expense of a second pour? Is the 129 harder and good for melts?

 

The 129 is great for melts! Yes, it is much harder than the 125. CBL 125 is very similar to IGI 4630.

I only recently tried 129 for candles, at the urging of some other enablers on here. 😉 It made a great candle, but I am just too darn lazy to do a double pour, lol. The reasons I would consider using it are: higher melt point for shipping in summer, excellent HT, no wet spots, easy to wick, a little less sooty than the viscous waxes. And it is awfully pretty! The down side is double pour. And I would rate the 125 with slightly better HT.

[calan]

39 minutes ago, Sarah S said:

 

The 129 is great for melts! Yes, it is much harder than the 125. CBL 125 is very similar to IGI 4630.

I only recently tried 129 for candles, at the urging of some other enablers on here. 😉 It made a great candle, but I am just too darn lazy to do a double pour, lol. The reasons I would consider using it are: higher melt point for shipping in summer, excellent HT, no wet spots, easy to wick, a little less sooty than the viscous waxes. And it is awfully pretty! The down side is double pour. And I would rate the 125 with slightly better HT.

Thanks for the info. But, now you've got me wanting to try yet another wax. 

Do you get any wet spots with the 125?

[calan]

11 minutes ago, calan said:

Thanks for the info. But, now you've got me wanting to try yet another wax. 
 

Scratch that. Shipping is $23 for $19 of wax to test.  

[NightLight]

Some fragrances are just stinkers in wax. Not that they stink, they just don’t throw.  
Wax you have to test a bunch of them to find some to live with. I haven’t found one wax that I would die for though

my new refund favorite is C3. The cold and hot throw is pretty amazing, better than 4630 and 4627I have been playing with.

You should try it. Just warning though C3 has learning curve, but I have been liking it a lot 

[NightLight]

Try Apple Brandy from candle science that is a very strong apple fragrance, and everyone who smells it loves it. That could give you good comparison to the Apple you have. Most of the apple scents I have throw well though