I may be wrong, for all I know, but I may be right.

[Sponiebr]

I've been scouting about, and here are some recent adventures into the treacherous wilds of my bad ideas: 

Oxides. MY GAWD THEY'RE EXPENSIVE!!!! "You want HOW MUCH for a half ounce of Chromium(III) Green oxide!!!!!? WHAT!!!? Well that's just ABRASIVE!"  And abrasive it is, I've been using it for decades on my razor strops. 

Now I'm not pointing any fingers at anyone, and I'm not naming names, and I sure as hell am not kissing EITHER of them, so there's nothing to tell there, but this oxide pricing issue DOES rather raise some HUGE RED FLAGS with me. 

What is it about "BubbleMuffin's Sud's of Joy Emporium" brand of 320 mesh Chromium(III) oxide qualifies it to be worth $30 a pound verses "Mr. I Paint Stuff" brand of chromium(III) oxide which is $15 per pound? Is it mesh size? Nope... Same mesh size.  Is it the purity? Nope... Same exact pure 100% chromium(III) oxide in each. Is it some kind of special certification that specifically spells out that "BubbleMuffin's Sud's of Joy Emporium" brand of 320 mesh Chromium(III) oxide may be used in soap and cosmetics? Well, if there is one I can't find it. In fact I can't tell ANY difference from looking at the websites or the jar that would lead me to believe that ONE was safer than the other EXCEPT that Mr. I Paint Stuff's jar specifically spells out that it is Non Toxic.

 

So, after wondering about these aforementioned issues I contacted a paint pigment supplier and I just asked if their pigments were safe to use in soap or if they had any kind of FDA certifications, and well, what was in them... The gist of their reply was the exact chemical names of each of the exact same things we would normally use in soap making: Ti02, Sodium Aluminum Sulfosilicate, Chromium III, and Iron oxides with trace metals like Cu, Sn, Mg, Ni... (o.O) Really... Well, then... My butt hurt just became a little more personal. 

 

(Fast forward through some storms, a hurricane, and other life weirdness... A few more emails... yadda, yadda, yadda)

 

I got some samples of the red, yellow, green, and ultramarine blue. And I made some soap with them. They worked just perfectly, in fact they behaved EXACTLY like the other oxides I have used, with absolutely NO discernible difference in usage rates or mixing, I mean the ultramarine and the chrome green even had that slightly gritty feeling that I always get when I first start mixing them with the oil. It was the same stuff at a fraction of the cost. 

I'll get some pictures of the color tests I did in a batch last night and put them up here, but I kinda wanted to flesh this out before all y'all saw the pictures. 

IF there IS some sort of "magic paper", "secret label", or privately known 'thumbs up" that a non toxic oxide or a mineral pigment HAS TO HAVE to be safe to use in soaps, for the love of everything happy PLEASE TELL ME.  But if there isn't... Well... This is probably gonna piss some people off that have been WAY over pricing some very basic products. I totally understand the small vendor's need to charge more for small quantities because of having to buy in non bulk volume, and then repackage to sell in small quantities, but a minimum of DOUBLE the cost up-charge just seems unreasonable.   

Just out of curiosity, do candle makers use oxide pigments in their candles or is it just dyes?   

 

Stay tuned for more Bad Ideas to follow! Same bad place, same bad time!  

Nunununu, nunununu badman!

Sponiebr

[Jcandleattic]

I don't KNOW if this is the answer, but I would assume, that probably what 'might' be happening, is the paint resellers can purchase at quantities much larger than soap suppliers, and therefore can give their customers a better retail price. 

Of course, that's just a guess.

 

Also, I just heard your title song on the radio this morning and thought, wow, I haven't heard this song in forever, and here it is, in my conscience twice... 

[kandlekrazy]

I'm not even sure why I read this thread because I don't soap any more.  Something drew me in?? And then I couldn't stop reading,so here's my view...You should be writing books when you're not making soap!  I needed a laugh this morning and your post did it.

[TallTayl]

Another difference is the handling... and certification.... cosmetic ingredients must be handled specifically to prevent injury to the consumer who spreads it upon their skin sometimes on and around very vulnerable areas such as eyes and mouth.

 

Are those paint chemicals being measured in an area where other potentially harmful substances were opened, stored, measured and packaged?

 

Were the tools, surfaces, packaging, etc properly sanitized before opening to ensure no cross contamination with other incidental contaminants.  

 

What other trace elements have been introduced since original manufacture unknowingly? Extreme example, but what is a carton of rat poison were on the table prior to measuring the oxide? Or a different paint chemical with toxic elements were measured just before?

 

Was the person measuring practicing GMP wearing gloves, a hair net, mask, etc.? 

 

i  use several oxides in pottery glazes. They must be handled very, very carefully to prevent accidental poisoning to myself in the dry form... the glaze raw materials of the same oxides used in my soap cost much less than the cosmetic versions, but I would never in a million lifetimes use those colorants as ingredients in my cosmetics! The storage and handling is atrocious!  

 

If anything should possibly happen in the life of my soap/skin care product to injure someone, I can point to my raw material sources and certifications and more than likely prevent an expensive fine or worse. This is a similar debate to using recycled materials or non traditional materials for Chandlery. 

 

Given the tiny tiny amounts of oxides used in our products, the cost to obtain certified materials, to me, is negligible. A 4oz bag of green chrome oxide has lasted me nearly 7 years. Ditto for several shades of red and yellow. Using too much in soap makes the soap bleed and stain. Further various groups like the environmental working group have tagged chrome oxides as fairly hazardous, so many informed consumers won't touch soap made with them. Hydrated chrome green is considered more toxic and hazardous than regular green chrome oxide. I now pretty much use cosmetic micas in soap and everyone is happy. 

[Jcandleattic]

29 minutes ago, TallTayl said:

Another difference is the handling... and certification.... cosmetic ingredients must be handled specifically to prevent injury to the consumer who spreads it upon their skin sometimes on and around very vulnerable areas such as eyes and mouth.

 

Are those paint chemicals being measured in an area where other potentially harmful substances were opened, stored, measured and packaged?

 

Were the tools, surfaces, packaging, etc properly sanitized before opening to ensure no cross contamination with other incidental contaminants.  

 

What other trace elements have been introduced since original manufacture unknowingly? Extreme example, but what is a carton of rat poison were on the table prior to measuring the oxide? Or a different paint chemical with toxic elements were measured just before?

 

Was the person measuring practicing GMP wearing gloves, a hair net, mask, etc.? 

 

i  use several oxides in pottery glazes. They must be handled very, very carefully to prevent accidental poisoning to myself in the dry form... the glaze raw materials of the same oxides used in my soap cost much less than the cosmetic versions, but I would never in a million lifetimes use those colorants as ingredients in my cosmetics! The storage and handling is atrocious!  

 

If anything should possibly happen in the life of my soap/skin care product to injure someone, I can point to my raw material sources and certifications and more than likely prevent an expensive fine or worse. This is a similar debate to using recycled materials or non traditional materials for Chandlery. 

 

Given the tiny tiny amounts of oxides used in our products, the cost to obtain certified materials, to me, is negligible. A 4oz bag of green chrome oxide has lasted me nearly 7 years. Ditto for several shades of red and yellow. Using too much in soap makes the soap bleed and stain. Further various groups like the environmental working group have tagged chrome oxides as fairly hazardous, so many informed consumers won't touch soap made with them. Hydrated chrome green is considered more toxic and hazardous than regular green chrome oxide. I now pretty much use cosmetic micas in soap and everyone is happy. 

So well said. 

I wish I was articulate and eloquent when writing stuff out as you are. 

I was thinking some of this AFTER I wrote my response, but you gave much more info than I could have, and in a much better format.

[Shari]

I thought the exact same thing, very well stated.  I couldn't put it quite so clearly either.  This subject has come up on other forums with the same reasons not to use it.

[TallTayl]

Besides, I dare you to tell any recipients of your soap but they're colored with paint pigment.

 

 if you mention this Idea on the dish  cover your behind with both hands because the lashing will really hurt.

[TallTayl]

 I  tend to be a lot like You sponie, looking for a better deal. Like when I realized a 50 pound sack of steamed rolled oats From the feed store was way cheaper than buying it by the pound at the grocery store. Same stuff but the feed store version was much dirtier and had more hulls. It was inedible for humans.

[Gsmakinsoap]

I also read somewhere that for them to say it's approved for cosmetic use, it has to be tested at each point of distribution. Meaning they can't just order it from a supplier, then repackage and sell; when they get it in they have to send it in to be tested first. That was my understanding, anyway. So this would definitely hike up the price.

[Sponiebr]

3 hours ago, Jcandleattic said:

I don't KNOW if this is the answer, but I would assume, that probably what 'might' be happening, is the paint resellers can purchase at quantities much larger than soap suppliers, and therefore can give their customers a better retail price. 

Of course, that's just a guess.

 

Also, I just heard your title song on the radio this morning and thought, wow, I haven't heard this song in forever, and here it is, in my conscience twice... 

That is definitely a part of the cost uptick and I did make mention of it in my OP. It is also an understandable price increase but a minimum of DOUBLE the price? 
 

3 hours ago, kandlekrazy said:

I'm not even sure why I read this thread because I don't soap any more.  Something drew me in?? And then I couldn't stop reading,so here's my view...You should be writing books when you're not making soap!  I needed a laugh this morning and your post did it.

Oh I write novellas... EVERY TIME I POST something... It's a horror show, a train wreck, nay, a TRAIN WRECK HORROR SHOW!!! (that's why you looked...  ) 
 

3 hours ago, TallTayl said:

Another difference is the handling... and certification.... cosmetic ingredients must be handled specifically to prevent injury to the consumer who spreads it upon their skin sometimes on and around very vulnerable areas such as eyes and mouth.

 

Are those paint chemicals being measured in an area where other potentially harmful substances were opened, stored, measured and packaged?

 

Were the tools, surfaces, packaging, etc properly sanitized before opening to ensure no cross contamination with other incidental contaminants.  

 

What other trace elements have been introduced since original manufacture unknowingly? Extreme example, but what is a carton of rat poison were on the table prior to measuring the oxide? Or a different paint chemical with toxic elements were measured just before?

 

Was the person measuring practicing GMP wearing gloves, a hair net, mask, etc.? 

 

i  use several oxides in pottery glazes. They must be handled very, very carefully to prevent accidental poisoning to myself in the dry form... the glaze raw materials of the same oxides used in my soap cost much less than the cosmetic versions, but I would never in a million lifetimes use those colorants as ingredients in my cosmetics! The storage and handling is atrocious!  

 

If anything should possibly happen in the life of my soap/skin care product to injure someone, I can point to my raw material sources and certifications and more than likely prevent an expensive fine or worse. This is a similar debate to using recycled materials or non traditional materials for Chandlery. 

 

Given the tiny tiny amounts of oxides used in our products, the cost to obtain certified materials, to me, is negligible. A 4oz bag of green chrome oxide has lasted me nearly 7 years. Ditto for several shades of red and yellow. Using too much in soap makes the soap bleed and stain. Further various groups like the environmental working group have tagged chrome oxides as fairly hazardous, so many informed consumers won't touch soap made with them. Hydrated chrome green is considered more toxic and hazardous than regular green chrome oxide. I now pretty much use cosmetic micas in soap and everyone is happy. 

Excellent points TT!!!! That's what I'm talk'n 'bout! I don't have a clue as to if they practice the same GMP that soap makers are supposed to be practicing, so I have no idea about that. It would seem to me that keeping products isolated would be wise for any manufacturer though... 

But regarding general safety the company's major selling point is the Non-Toxic label. So what does that even mean at a fundamental level? Does Non-Toxic mean that the specific chemical that they have labeled for sale is generally considered as not poisonous or does it mean that there is some sort of process and ongoing testing that ensures that their product is, in fact, Non-Toxic? 

Personally, I really would rather not bother at all with oxides or anything other than natural colorants, but there is a stability to the oxides that does make them a very attractive option. So many of my family members are deathly allergic to just about everything including, but not limited to, AIR. One of my family members is allergic to FD&C colorants, Red #4 and Red 3, and all of the Yellows causes anaphylactic shock. As I understand it, many micas are colored with FD&C food coloring, so I haven't used them as much.

I certainly don't want to use a product that is going to cause any kind of harm to anyone. Period. EVER. The point behind me making the soap is to produce a better, safer, and generally more healthy product at a better cost than is currently available in the market.  While there are certainly things that I make for myself where I operate outside of established safe practices, they are for ME.  Typically I would not give something like that to anyone else, I mean unless they completely understood what they were getting into and they just REALLY wanted to try it, because they probably aren't going to like it. (e.g.: Peppermint Pine Tar soap AKA "the tingle" 6.25% Peppermint EO PPO. )    

So far I've found that the rose red clay, and Moroccan red clay, produce a nice enough red and orange for me. Annatto is just fine for yellow, charcoal is perfect for black, white... (meh).  So really... all I need is a solid blue but a real blue is hard to get naturally.

Then there is this point of the certification as safe for cosmetics... WHERE is this certificate on these specialty supplier's websites? The most information that I have seen published is a MSDS sheet detailing that the oxide is CLEARLY a skin irritant. If I buy my oxide from them it's OK, but if I buy from a Paint Supply it's a huge NOPE?  I have no problem, (in fact I prefer) with buying a certified product that has testing and certifications that detail it being "safe" for soap and cosmetic use, but my issue is that I'm NOT SEEING these certifications, all I'm seeing are claims from other buyers that X brand is safe. The vendors aren't even providing these certifications, all I'm seeing are MSDS at best and as frequently as not, just an annotation about how oxides don't bleed, and usage rates...

I'm looking for proof. 
 

1 hour ago, TallTayl said:

Besides, I dare you to tell any recipients of your soap but they're colored with paint pigment.

 

 if you mention this Idea on the dish  cover your behind with both hands because the lashing will really hurt.

I will most likely bring this up on the Dish once it gets back online, and I KNOW I'm going to come out mangled for it, but the WHY behind the certifications or the claims of safety is a really important issue. Also, I HAVE already danced around this concept on the Dish before, but really didn't get much attention as there were other issues at hand.

So is this really a thing or is it a form of brand loyalty that because it comes from a specialty company that we FEEL better about using the specialty brand? I don't generally have a problem with telling people that I use X ingredient in my soap, be it ultramarine or GV shortening. I wouldn't just say "OH!!!! ALL of my soaps are made with pigments that are exclusively used to paint the walls of prisons...That's why I'M SPECIAL." I would say I use a mineral pigment or oxide, and if they wanted more info on WHERE I get it, I'd tell them. That's not the issue for me. Oxides and pigments are used in all kinds of things, from hand grenades to lipsticks, they are the colors of our life.  

I'm looking for the truth. 

  

 

1 hour ago, TallTayl said:

 I  tend to be a lot like You sponie, looking for a better deal. Like when I realized a 50 pound sack of steamed rolled oats From the feed store was way cheaper than buying it by the pound at the grocery store. Same stuff but the feed store version was much dirtier and had more hulls. It was inedible for humans.

 

o.O .... o.o... Um... Should I just keep the fact that I've eaten a lot of Diamond Brand rolled oats to myself? (how long the bugs have had to chew on it changes the dust and debris levels significantly. A fresh bag right off the line is pretty clean but 50#'s of rolled oats is A LOT OF OATS...)  

THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE. 

Trust no one.

Sponiebr 

[TallTayl]

It's not the MSDS you need to determine ingredients so much as the INCI ingredient list.

 

All of my soap stable Mica based colorants list the INCI, none include FD&C colorants. If a supplier does not provide the INCI I pass them by.

Example Deep Blue from TKBTrading.com: Ingredients: Mica (77019), Titanium Dioxide (77891), Iron Oxide (77499), Ferric Ferrocyanide (77510).

 

FD&C are dyes, and can be found in some colorants, generally not completely CP stable, but some are.

 

example of soap dye powder from TKB: Ingredients: Bis (Glycidoxyphenyl) propane / Bisaminomethyl-norbornane Copolymer, Aluminum Hydroxide,Benzoxazole, 2,2'-(2,5-thiophenediyl){5-(1,1-dimetyl)-,  Violet 2 Ext (C.I.60730), Red #28 (C.I.45410), Pigment Blue 15 (C.I.74160), Resin, Shellac, Ultramarines (C.I.77007).

 

and a red/pink pigment dye: Ingredients: Bis (Glycidoxyphenyl) propane / Bisaminomethyl-norbornane Copolymer, Aluminum Hydroxide, Red 28 (C.I. 45410), Red 22 (C.I. 45380), Acid Yellow 3/E 104 (C.I. 47005).

 

For a gorgeous blue, and to color adjust some purples to offset the yellow tint to my soap formula I use ultramarine blue. Keep in mind Ultramarine blue is lab produced for consistency of color and supply, not pulled right from the deep earth.

 

 

[TallTayl]

Adding: Clays are color modified in labs too... Not sure with what. If you want natural, then you're probably going to be limited to herbs, spices, etc.

 

The whole "non-toxic" argument is a philosophical one, isn't it? Like, my potter clay is labeled as non-toxic, so I could lick it without an emergency call to Poison Control, but it is not without risk. If inhaled long enough the clay dust will kill me. The only difference is time =) Same with our cosmetic and candle chemicals. Which is why it is a darned good idea to always use personal protective equipment and choose materials that have the least likelihood that we will not become sick from our crafts.

[Jcandleattic]

6 hours ago, TallTayl said:

i  use several oxides in pottery glazes. They must be handled very, very carefully to prevent accidental poisoning to myself in the dry form... the glaze raw materials of the same oxides used in my soap cost much less than the cosmetic versions, but I would never in a million lifetimes use those colorants as ingredients in my cosmetics! The storage and handling is atrocious!  

This! 

 

And, along with that and the FDA crackdown on small bath & body businesses, the more we can show/prove that WE are doing everything in our power to be in compliance, the less likely we are to be held to standards such as other countries, and have everything we do tested before we can sell, give, or trade our goods, not to mention, fines and regulation fees... 

[Sponiebr]

 I was going to RANT... I was going to RAVE like the MAD man that I am about the INJUSTICE and roguish near thievery of the whole specialty craft industry... I was going to DEMAND ANSWERS AND ACCOUNTABILITY... And then... (SOBS) THEN... TT comes in here with wisdom and common sense. and, (WAILING) it's lights out, ice cream cone in the sand, game over, bubbles popped, parade cancelled, THUNDER STOLEN, for me... Oh it was going to be SUCH a PERFORMANCE!!!!  Move along folks... nothing more to see here. I'll just... I dunno... my new purpose is gone...sniff... <shuffles off into the cold, dark, and lonely shadows *exit stage left* >   ) 

 

 

3 hours ago, TallTayl said:

Adding: Clays are color modified in labs too... Not sure with what. If you want natural, then you're probably going to be limited to herbs, spices, etc.

 

The whole "non-toxic" argument is a philosophical one, isn't it? Like, my potter clay is labeled as non-toxic, so I could lick it without an emergency call to Poison Control, but it is not without risk. If inhaled long enough the clay dust will kill me. The only difference is time =) Same with our cosmetic and candle chemicals. Which is why it is a darned good idea to always use personal protective equipment and choose materials that have the least likelihood that we will not become sick from our crafts.

 

Seriously though, TT you're absolutely right. I mean even water is poisonous if over consumed. Still, where the certification comes from is kind of interesting, and still seems fairly ill defined. Also are clays like the Rhassoul and French sea clays lab altered? I thought that at least the Moroccan and Brazilian colored clays were naturally occurring.  

3 hours ago, Jcandleattic said:

This! 

 

And, along with that and the FDA crackdown on small bath & body businesses, the more we can show/prove that WE are doing everything in our power to be in compliance, the less likely we are to be held to standards such as other countries, and have everything we do tested before we can sell, give, or trade our goods, not to mention, fines and regulation fees... 

Yeah. They want it their way but their way seems rather obscure. 
FDA: 
"THOU SHALT DO THE THING!!!" Uh... what "thing"? "THOU SHALT DO IT!!!" Whaa? What am I supposed to do? "Thou SHALT NOT do THAT THING!!!" (oh boy...) what are you talking about!? Hello? FDA? "WE SHALT REIGN HELL UPON YOU IF YOU do THAT thing!!!" Where can I find out more about the "things"... "THOU SHALT NOT VIOLATE THE CFR!!!" What parts?     "Well, what do you mean WHAT parts? ALL OF IT you silly ninny..."

You can't use X brand oxide because it's not certified but you don't have to disclose what's IN the soap if you label it soap... Wow. That would be just about enough to drive someone nuts... (Queue IFRA...) "Finish him!" "Fatality!" "IFRA WINS" "MORTAL KOMBAT!!!!!!!!"  

I WANT THE TRUT... 

 

This is the first time I've heard of TKB Trading... Where have these folks BEEN in my life!? WOW! They have officially beat the pants off of anyone else selling pigments!

Thank you TT!   (and thank you all!) 

-Sponiebr 

 

[Sponiebr]

Oh and before I ferget... Here are the color tests.

 

Top left to right: Red, Yellow, Green, Ultramarine, red and yellow (the red dot is just some extra I dumped on afterwards I was trying for an orange.), red and blue (hopefully some form of purple, it's got plain uncolored soap on top to fill the rest of the mold) The next 3 are just plain, and that last one was just the uncolored swirled in the mold with the scrapings of the left over red) Formulation was:  

38% water to oil

5% superfat

40% Great Value Shortening

34% Canola oil

21% Coconut oil

5% Castor

1/2 tsp peppermint eo.

 

 

 

Ta-DA!!! 

 

[TallTayl]

TKB is a wondrous place. Watch for the rare sale and specials! And see if others want to split larger quantities to save even MORE money.

[Gsmakinsoap]

I just (a couple days ago) found a mica vendor that looks great. Someone on soapmakingforum mentioned them. I guess she does prebuys like once a month, but her prices beat anything else I've seen! Also, the forum person said they've been tested in soap. When I get low, I'll be trying her out: www.micasandmore.com. She also has a facebook page. I'm particularly pleased that the "Ruby Red" she sells only contains mica and oxides. Not even Titanium dioxide, which I find many have. The fewer the ingredients, the happier I am. I could potentially make a red soap for my cousin who's afraid of TD, for instance.

[Sponiebr]

5 hours ago, Gsmakinsoap said:

I just (a couple days ago) found a mica vendor that looks great. Someone on soapmakingforum mentioned them. I guess she does prebuys like once a month, but her prices beat anything else I've seen! Also, the forum person said they've been tested in soap. When I get low, I'll be trying her out: www.micasandmore.com. She also has a facebook page. I'm particularly pleased that the "Ruby Red" she sells only contains mica and oxides. Not even Titanium dioxide, which I find many have. The fewer the ingredients, the happier I am. I could potentially make a red soap for my cousin who's afraid of TD, for instance.

Yeah, I'm gonna try it out too... But I'll place an order ASAP because it looks like it'll be over a month minimum before I'd get an order shipped. 

[Sponiebr]

Remember when I was going off about the certifications and such for the oxides? It's up there ^ above this^. (wave and say hi!!!) 

 

So I'm poking along in TKB Trading co... and lo and behold I find a color I like and want to know more about the pigment. 

Ingredients: There are no ingredients list provided with this pigment because it is not cosmetic grade. It is not permitted for use in cosmetics. Great in soap making and craft projects, however. 

Wait... so because we soap they don't have to say what's in their colorants? I could grab a handful of red dirt and throw it in and It's gonna be just fine, because it's a soap.... 

 

Does something smell fishy here? 

[Jcandleattic]

I have Marie Gale's book on labeling and FDA regulations. Her's in not the end-all be-all, but it is pretty damn close, and have some of the best information I've seen, because she breaks down all of the FDA regulations into laymen's terms. 

Also, if you PM her, if/when she gets it, she is very generous in her replies to help people. 

48 minutes ago, Sponiebr said:

Wait... so because we soap they don't have to say what's in their colorants? I could grab a handful of red dirt and throw it in and It's gonna be just fine, because it's a soap.... 

 

Soap is not considered a cosmetic unless you make cosmetic claims. If you just say "This is soap and it will get you clean" you do not have to list any of your ingredients, however, if you say something like "this soap is moisturizing" then you have to list your ingredients because you have just made a cosmetic claim.

 

However, why they say it's great in soapmaking and not list ingredients, that's beyond me. I just don't know. 

 

[TallTayl]

That no requirement for an ingredient list if no claims has never sat well with me  

 

technically the FDA does not class soap as a cosmetic yet, so the rules are lax. On the one hand, it allows us all to easily enter the marketplace. On the other hand, everyone, including people who add things like pet hair (yes I have seen bragadocious posts about it) can open a soap shop and throw anything out to the unsuspecting public. 

 

As JC mentioned above, the rules they are a changing. (See what I did there sponiebr?). Senator Diane Feinstein (D-CA)  and Senator Susan Collins (R-Me) have been earnestly pushing their bill for years (https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/senate-bill/1014) . It will not be long before we ARE regulated. Why not start at the beginning in compliance versus having to scramble to become compliant when forced? 

 

You will learn that with so much information (misleading and helpful) a quick Google away an increasing number of people will not try, let alone buy, soap or cosmetics with no label. Like your family, Sponiebr) who want to risk a trip to the ER? As a manufacturer, following GMP saves time, money and lowers risk considerably!

[TallTayl]

If anyone wants a hair raising story to help you not sleep at night, look up the story of cosmetic colorant reseller "Glittersniffer".

[Jcandleattic]

Just now, TallTayl said:

That no requirement for an ingredient list if no claims has never sat well with me  

 

technically the FDA does not class soap as a cosmetic yet, so the rules are lax. On the one hand, it allows us all to easily enter the marketplace. On the other hand, everyone, including people who add things like pet hair (yes I have seen bragadocious posts about it) can open a soap shop and throw anything out to the unsuspecting public. 

 

As JC mentioned above, the rules they are a changing. (See what I did there sponiebr?). Senator Diane Feinstein (D-CA)  and Senator Susan Collins (R-Me) have been earnestly pushing their bill for years (https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/senate-bill/1014) . It will not be long before we ARE regulated. Why not start at the beginning in compliance versus having to scramble to become compliant when forced? 

 

You will learn that with so much information (misleading and helpful) a quick Google away an increasing number of people will not try, let alone buy, soap or cosmetics with no label. Like your family, Sponiebr) who want to risk a trip to the ER? As a manufacturer, following GMP saves time, money and lowers risk considerably!

I agree, which is why I list all ingredients, even though I make no cosmetic claims about soap. Even when asked. I don't even suggest a claim like "some people say" type of thing. Just makes it so much easier. 

[TallTayl]

JC, and with all the really brutal Facebook groups formed with the sole purpose of ferreting out other soapmakers not in compliance and reporting them to the FDA (you know to get it on the record for public safety) why even go there? 

 

I kid you not. Facebook has revealed some nasty, nasty people. A soapmaker friend was reported to the FDA for a claim that her eucalyptus soap "smelled medicinal". A pair of federal agents showed up unannounced, inspected her facility, put all shortcomings on record, and requires routine, regular inspections from now on. This is a woman who makes soap in her home garage converted to manufacturing space. The garage is set up better than most other facilities I have seen, but those fines add up fast!

[Jcandleattic]

54 minutes ago, TallTayl said:

JC, and with all the really brutal Facebook groups formed with the sole purpose of ferreting out other soapmakers not in compliance and reporting them to the FDA (you know to get it on the record for public safety) why even go there? 

 

I kid you not. Facebook has revealed some nasty, nasty people. A soapmaker friend was reported to the FDA for a claim that her eucalyptus soap "smelled medicinal". A pair of federal agents showed up unannounced, inspected her facility, put all shortcomings on record, and requires routine, regular inspections from now on. This is a woman who makes soap in her home garage converted to manufacturing space. The garage is set up better than most other facilities I have seen, but those fines add up fast!

Sooo irritating. I try to stay away from the FB groups for the most part.