Cooking soy wax & scent for 20-30 minutes plus a flashpoint ?

[angellie5]

I am posting this for a friend since I don't make my soy candles this way. She buys all her supplies from this company and these are the instructions she has been following. Here's the link. For those that can't use the link, she adds the scent just after the wax melts completely and then cooks it for 20 more minutes before pouring. I have never in all my years of candlemaking heard of this method. (I melt my wax to 180*, stop heating it, add scent around 175*, allow to cool until slushy, pour into containers.) I am using 415 and she is using 464. When I tested 464, I did the same thing I do with 415, just could pour a little hotter. Friend called the company today and was told that my method was too hot, was burning off the scent, and was dangerously close to the FO flashpoints which could be hazardous. There was also mention of the cooking method making sure the candle was scented from top to bottom whereas my method will only be strong at the top.

I would think cooking a scent for 20 minutes on medium heat would burn off scent, but I'm no expert. I am definitely not burning off my scent and my candles are scented all the way through, but my friend is concerned about the flashpoint comment and I'm not sure what to tell her. She says some of her candles aren't very strong, but that could be the FO too. I thought maybe the candles that were turning out okay for her were strong FOs to begin with, worked with soy, and that by cooking the scented wax for 20 minutes, she eventually gets the temp up high enough to bind the wax and oil. What do you all think?

Are these old directions for soy? Does anyone else make their candles this way? I told my friend that if she loves her candles then by all means do not let me stop her, but she also wanted some professional opinions.

Sorry for the book, thank you so much!

[Inspirational Scents]

I have never hard of anything like that. I hope she listen to you. That is the way I do mines and I use 464. I believe she is cooking the FO off doing it that way. HTH

[Pam W]

Why don't you and your friend make identical candles, she uses her method and you do it the right way..(hehe) then see which candle has the best throw??

[Wessex]

Once you pour the FO into the wax, the flashpoint is raised significantly by the wax. There should be NO danger of "flashing off" or igniting. I do believe the "cooking" method is burning off some of her FO, just like using a tart in a warmer! Your method is much better than what she was told.

[Stella1952]

This isn't heresy and makes a certain amount of sense although not for the reasons stated.

All the flashpoint stuff is hogwash & you are not "cooking off" the FO using the method you are using any more than "cooking" for 20 minutes at 125°F would do, but, hey - if her way works for her, that's what counts.

You could try using her method with 415 as it is one of the soy waxes that does very well poured very cool & see if it works for ya. 464 might work that way, too, although it's usually poured hotter. "Cooking" the scent at 125°F seems pretty equivalent to adding FO at a higher temp and stirring down to the pour temp... by the time you are at "slush," the FO has "cooked" in your wax, too, KWIM?... If you are not preheating the FO, the addition of the room temp FO to the wax will drop the temp 10°-15°F right off the bat! I expect that there would be some loss of volatile oils at the higher temp (which is offset by the length of time she "cooks" hers), but since FO is engineered to be added at higher temps than that, the supplier's rationale doesn't hold water.

Bottom line is I think the method is valid, although the rationale is flawed. If she is getting results that you aren't in some way, try it - ya never know - if it works mo' better, you may have taught us all a new addition for our trickbag. :smiley2:

I don't think the soy police will come drag anyone off for that...

Edited December 6, 2011 by Stella1952

[EccoLights]

Hi! I'm Rob, with the Soy Police.... Has anyone seen Stella around??? Just checking. =)

[Stella1952]

[Ravens]

Soy Officer Rob, has Stella committed an infraction - or, as my neighbor told me once (several times during our discussion, with me biting my lip to cause pain so I wouldn't laugh) - a fartion ? :laugh2:

Hi! I'm Rob, with the Soy Police.... Has anyone seen Stella around??? Just checking. =)

[Stella1952]

:embarasse

*faint*

:whistle:

:tiptoe:

[Ravens]

That's right, Stella. It's the best way - period. Geez, I'm surprised you don't know about this excellent method.... well, now you know :laugh2:It amazes me what one can learn here, something new nearly every day.

:embarasse

*faint*

:whistle:

:tiptoe:

[Stella1952]

If it works, it works. There's more than one way home. :-)

(especially if being pursued by the soy police)

[jeanie353]

I'm going to try this today with some KY soy I picked up last week just for grins. Not too sure about the person giving these directions because:

1) Using high melt point wick putty. Put a small amount of the putty on the wick tab and place in your jar (don't know what wick putty is or if I'd trust it?)

2) Allow candles to dry completely before burning and enjoy (no cure?)

I'll try anything once...except going on an airplane.

[Pam W]

I noticed the 'no cure time' too. If this company gives out this kind of instructions, it makes me wonder if their oils are 'quality'.

[pixie]

When I first started making candles I use to cook the FO in the wax for about 10 min. I could never get any ht worth a darn (although it smelled lovely while cooking on the stove). Once I started adding my FO at 185 degrees, it was like night and day (my candles were finally throwing the way I wanted them to). I cringe when I think of all the money I wasted when I was just starting out ..but I suppose that is the price of learning and experimentation :rolleyes2

[jeanie353]

Well, I cooked one and did one the regular way. Will see when they are "dry" if the one that was cooked is able to throw w/o cure. Otherwise, I'll put them aside for a week and do a test on them later. I just had to try it! Will post results.

[Candybee]

When you think about it, I have my wax heating in my wax melter all day long when I am making candles. But NOT with the FO in it.

As far as flashpoint of the FO that changes dramatically once you put it in the wax. Putting in the wax dilutes it considerable and changes the flashpoint closer to the actual wax flashpoint.

What is the purpose of "cooking" the wax with the FO in it for 20 minutes? Can you imaging any company doing such a thing? I make cases of candles all day long and don't have time to "cook" my scented wax. What is the point anyway? Its just absurd as far as I am concerned. And what if it does work-- again, what is the point if you are achieving the same thing using the normal method of adding your FO and blending into your wax just before pouring? Its just a lot of nonsense as far as I am concerned and a total waste of time. Plus I have a feeling that the scent will be killed off at least some of it by the time you have cooked it for 20 minutes.

I think I have heard it all!:rolleyes2

[Stella1952]

Will see when they are "dry"

Along with the completely off-target rationale, I visibly winced when I read that line on the website... beware those "wet" candles...

Jeeze - they make it sound like we're pouring concrete or plaster for pete's sake...:rolleyes2:rolleyes2:rolleyes2

Gotta go check and see if my candles have dried yet... it's raining here (all day) so it'll probably take a lot longer for them to dry. Hope yours get dry soon, Jeanie.:laugh2:

[jeanie353]

When you think about it, I have my wax heating in my wax melter all day long when I am making candles. But NOT with the FO in it.

As far as flashpoint of the FO that changes dramatically once you put it in the wax. Putting in the wax dilutes it considerable and changes the flashpoint closer to the actual wax flashpoint.

What is the purpose of "cooking" the wax with the FO in it for 20 minutes? Can you imaging any company doing such a thing? I make cases of candles all day long and don't have time to "cook" my scented wax. What is the point anyway? Its just absurd as far as I am concerned. And what if it does work-- again, what is the point if you are achieving the same thing using the normal method of adding your FO and blending into your wax just before pouring? Its just a lot of nonsense as far as I am concerned and a total waste of time. Plus I have a feeling that the scent will be killed off at least some of it by the time you have cooked it for 20 minutes.

I think I have heard it all!:rolleyes2

Stella...they are dry now.

While none of us have heard of such a thing, it does sound very strange to the point I initially had thoughts of emailing this person not only about cooking wax but this wick putty (whatever that is) and no cure time on soy being put on the internet for those who may not know better.

After a little bit, I thought why not give a total of about 30-45 minutes of my time to making a candle both ways, check it out, and see for myself if it is a bunch of hogwash or not. As of right now, I still don't know. The instructions say when the candle has dried to go ahead and light it which I was going to do when it COOLED. They are cool but do not have the right texture yet to give me any type of a realistic burn so I'll wait until tomorrow. I will say the cooked one has a whole lot more CT than the one done the normal way. I used the exact same amount of wax with the exact amount of FO for these, and they both went in the exact same jar.

I woke up this morning just like everyone else simply reading posts when I stumbled across this. I'm not for it by any means yet.... in fact was leaning very much against it initially, so don't shoot the messenger please

While I am not making pure soy candles at this time (parasoy), I don't feel anything is a waste of time if it could help a product I make now or may at a later date better. It actually didn't take me anymore time than it did when I was making soy candles letting them cool down to 115 before pouring. The wax was already there after it went in my pour pot.

What the purpose of this cooking is? Who knows. All I do know is how can I personally say something doesn't work unless I've tried it? I will draw the line on not using wick putty or even trying it...ever.

Once I burn these, if it is a bunch of hogwash I can go to that person and inform him/her just that. Not that I will...Well, I might.

Edited December 6, 2011 by jeanie353
spelling

[Stella1952]

What the purpose of this cooking is?

I think the purpose (from reading the site) was that because the FO was added at a low temp (we usually add it higher) was to "incorporate" the FO into the wax via time at a low temperature. I am assuming that the person who developed this method did not know that "incorporation" means adding at a high enough temp and stirring well into the wax. The same "cooking" is achieved when we add at a higher temp and stir down to a lower pour temp... It's the temp and stirring that achieve the "incorporation" not some mystical "cooking"... we're not making spaghetti sauce here... (hmmm... don't I have some leftover spaghetti in the fridge? Should be fully incorporated and cured by now...):laugh2:

The wick putty is in place of a decent adhesive. Lots of people use this method of affixing the wicktab to the bottom of the container. While it may work for holding the wicktab, it doesn't have a strong enough "hold" to keep the wick in place when the wick is twisted or pulled taut against the wick bar on top. It's great for sealing molds, though, which is its intended purpose.

Like I said before, I can see how this technique would work - just not for the reasons the writer postulated... So long as the candle looks and smells pleasing, it doesn't matter how ya get there! I'd tie a gris gris around the pour pot if it helped make the candles come out mo' better. :laugh2:

Edited December 6, 2011 by Stella1952

[jeanie353]

I think the purpose (from reading the site) was that because the FO was added at a low temp (we usually add it higher) was to "incorporate" the FO into the wax via time at a low temperature. I am assuming that the person who developed this method did not know that "incorporation" means adding at a high enough temp and stirring well into the wax. The same "cooking" is achieved when we add at a higher temp and stir down to a lower pour temp... It's the temp and stirring that achieve the "incorporation" not some mystical "cooking"... we're not making spaghetti sauce here... (hmmm... don't I have some leftover spaghetti in the fridge? Should be fully incorporated and cured by now...):laugh2:

The wick putty is in place of a decent adhesive. Lots of people use this method of affixing the wicktab to the bottom of the container. While it may work for holding the wicktab, it doesn't have a strong enough "hold" to keep the wick in place when the wick is twisted or pulled taut against the wick bar on top. It's great for sealing molds, though, which is its intended purpose.

Like I said before, I can see how this technique would work - just not for the reasons the writer postulated... So long as the candle looks and smells pleasing, it doesn't matter how ya get there! I'd tie a gris gris around the pour pot if it helped make the candles come out mo' better. :laugh2:

The OP wasn't really about how the FO got incorporated but that her friend's candle thew better than hers....if I remember correctly. I didn't scroll up to look. That is all I am looking for here. If it doesn't throw better by cooking the stuff, well then who would do it? KWIM

[Stella1952]

The OP wasn't really about how the FO got incorporated

That was on the website the OP referenced, Jeanie.

[jeanie353]

That was on the website the OP referenced, Jeanie.

OMG...Whatever...it was referenced and I was wrong in where. Do you feel better now?

[angellie5]

Wow, look what I have missed! I can't remember every comment, but thank you all for your input and reassurance about the FP!

I used to buy my supplies from MS, it is local, and they sell the wick putty there. Stella is right, you can't pull the wick too tight after it is in place or it will pop up, and the problem I ran into was when the candle burns down near the bottom, the putty heats up and releases the wick and it floats to the side. Not so safe. But as a newbie, I didn't know any better and bought what was there and recommended. They also recommend zinc wicks for soy which isn't all that common either. Some of their oils are very strong, but they quit carrying 415 so I haven't bothered to make the trip and just order from CS and BCN for my oils, wicks, and wax.

I did want to clarify that my friend was asking me about some of her candles not smelling when burning, not me concerned about mine, sorry if that was confusing. When I asked about her method that is when she informed me about her cooking them. If hers are stronger than mine (I've never tried one of hers yet so don't know for sure), then heck yeah I will try this cooking thing LOL! She sent me the link to the directions b/c I was sure the website had a typo and meant heat the wax then cool *not cook* for 20 minutes before pouring. I was still skeptical and so she called them. I think she is going to make a batch of candles using both methods and see what happens.

When I put my double boiler on the stove on medium heat, the temp of the wax does not stay near 125* though, it climbs to the 180* I want it to (probably would go higher) and I take it off. I haven't checked how long this takes, but I wonder how high the temp does go after 20 minutes? I think that could be my friend's problem.

I can't wait to hear your results Jeanie!

[jeanie353]

Wow, look what I have missed! I can't remember every comment, but thank you all for your input and reassurance about the FP!

I used to buy my supplies from MS, it is local, and they sell the wick putty there. Stella is right, you can't pull the wick too tight after it is in place or it will pop up, and the problem I ran into was when the candle burns down near the bottom, the putty heats up and releases the wick and it floats to the side. Not so safe. But as a newbie, I didn't know any better and bought what was there and recommended. They also recommend zinc wicks for soy which isn't all that common either. Some of their oils are very strong, but they quit carrying 415 so I haven't bothered to make the trip and just order from CS and BCN for my oils, wicks, and wax.

I did want to clarify that my friend was asking me about some of her candles not smelling when burning, not me concerned about mine, sorry if that was confusing. When I asked about her method that is when she informed me about her cooking them. If hers are stronger than mine (I've never tried one of hers yet so don't know for sure), then heck yeah I will try this cooking thing LOL! She sent me the link to the directions b/c I was sure the website had a typo and meant heat the wax then cool *not cook* for 20 minutes before pouring. I was still skeptical and so she called them. I think she is going to make a batch of candles using both methods and see what happens.

When I put my double boiler on the stove on medium heat, the temp of the wax does not stay near 125* though, it climbs to the 180* I want it to (probably would go higher) and I take it off. I haven't checked how long this takes, but I wonder how high the temp does go after 20 minutes? I think that could be my friend's problem.

I can't wait to hear your results Jeanie!

I did mine in the Presto and had to have the setting at below warm to keep it low enough for the 20 minutes. I did have to keep an eye on it at first to get the setting to keep the wax at that temp range but it only took one little bit of adjustment and it stayed. I haven't done a lot of candles in the double boiler method and those I did, I wanted to get up to 180-185 and stay there so I'm no help at all about how to keep the temp low using that method.

Its funny how this all evolved. I just thought I'd try it for two reasons...1) just to try it and 2) didn't want to bash it before I knew what it did or didn't do.

It is just so far off from what any of us have known for so long about when to add our FO and how long to not keep it in the pot, I had doubts it would work at all. I expected little to no throw. There may be little to no throw tomorrow when I light it. Actually, I am going to light them both seeing it was a trial thing and not a "keeper" type test candle for me. If there is little to no throw tomorrow, I will hang on for a week and try again then. After that it will be chalked up to an experiment regardless of the outcome b/c I am not planning on going back to soy in the near future.

It hadn't crossed my mind the person on the website was referring to mold sealer. I can see why the wick putty (as it was called) would let loose and the wicks would float around. I've had hot wax come through mine on pillars a time or two if I didn't use a rubber plug along with it. That stuff usually can't take that kind of heat. But as they say....each to their own.

Oh, you didn't cause any confusion at all....No worries. I did not go back to re-read the thread before I posted to Stella and went off memory. I wasn't quite sure and think I said something along those lines but one should know better than to not go back and double check just for that reason.

At the very least, it got the attention of many of us...lol.

I will PM you with the results as soon as I have them.

Good luck on your candles.

[angellie5]

Okay, friend did the experiment on 464, her cooking method vs. the "normal" method and she thinks the cooked candle has a better CT and appearance. I have both candles in my possession ATM and I have to agree with her. Although the CT difference isn't huge by any means, they are both very good and you have to mix them up or you will always pick the candle you smell first as the strongest LOL. The normal candle has a crack around the wick and a little frosting (she thinks she poured it too cool for 464), but the cooked candle is near perfect. Very interesting. If you read the thread Stella linked about frosting here, Jason from GB tempers 464 basically similar to this cooking method. Might be where this company got some of their directions after making a few of their own samples.

Although, friend recorded the temps of her process and she could not get her stove to keep a level 125*. Even on low, it would still climb. She did her cooking method like she always does, without any modifications, just noted temps, and she said the wax is about 150* when she adds scent and after 20 minutes of cooking, the wax & scent combo were sometimes as high as 195* before she took it off. That sounds similar to the normal way, just adding scent sooner and keeping it hot longer.

I should be ordering more wax in a few days and I'll play then. I have to reserve what I have left for a Christmas order. Will update when I can or when she burns these to judge HT.