A Question...or two!

[Bernadette]

I don't make soy candles, so I just had to come here and ask. I just visited a new website for soy candles which stated all the stuff we've all heard over and over - how paraffin has very harmful carcinogens, leaves your wall gray/black with soot, etc. But there were a couple of things on their "about soy" page that put a question mark in my head.

First they said that soy was more expensive than paraffin, but burned longer, so it was a great value. Second, they said that all soy candles have white spots on the jar sides and wax tops, which is "normal", AND assures you that you are buying a true soy candle. Are these two statements true? I didn't think so...:tiptoe:

[HorseScentS]

I & my family & friends have burned paraffin candles all our lives & have never seen any soot or had gray/black walls. Soy doesn't burn cleaner than paraffin, & the food-grade paraffin used in candles is non-toxic & doesn't cause cancer.

[sbs]

Here we gooooo.... It doesn't matter. People are gonna say what they wanna say to sell THEIR product. Not you, me, or anybody could change that so there's no point in caring who puts what on their site. There's so much FALSE advertisement/ facts in all industry's... It's my personal choice not to go that route but many people don't care as long as they just sell something. And soy does frost so I wouldn't call that ABnormal...

[EricofAZ]

I have some soot to clean up on the walls. Can't say what is the culprit, but since I use almost entirely paraffin, I'll point a finger that way. I can see the soot coming off the wicks every now and then.

Check prices. Right now soy is less expensive than paraffin.

The white spots on soy do seem to be pretty common.

I will still work with paraffin because I really like the throw, however, for unscented candles, I'm sticking to soy.

[Pam W]

I have some soot to clean up on the walls. Can't say what is the culprit, but since I use almost entirely paraffin, I'll point a finger that way. I can see the soot coming off the wicks every now and then.

You should point the finger directly at yourself and your choice of wicks rather than the paraffin.

[TxSioux]

Pam beat me to it. I, too, believe soot is the result of an improperly wicked candle. Next culprit is usually the fo. I've done a LOT of testing for 8 yrs & I've tried a lot of wacky combo's - especially when it comes to trying to manipulate soy into doing what I want it to do <grin> - & I guarantee you I can get a 'natural' soy candle to smoke like a room full of blue-haired bingo players!! I've tested soy, blends, palm, & paraffin & just haven't found soy to have a substantially increased burn time - not worth bragging about. Several soys cost less that paraffin, so sounds like someone is trying to validate their costs. White spots must be their layman terms for frost/bloom, which is true.

Susan.

[Candybee]

Soot is the byproduct of the candle burning. ALL candles soot. Different fuels produce different types of soot so some are more visable than others. But trust me soy soots like any other candle. How much soot and how much smoke is produced from a burning candle tends to be a more of a wicking issue as an improperly wicked candle can produce more soot. Certain wicks tend to produce more smoke and soot. Some FOs or the amount used can produce more soot. To say its primary cause is paraffin is misleading and untrue. If you have to clean soot off your walls the first thing I would consider is rethinking your wicking.

To say paraffin candles emit carcinogens is misleading. This was never proved and I have read more studies that claim the carcinogen producing culprit is the wick not the wax. But then anything that burns can produce carcinogens. Its the amount that is emitted is what you need to be concerned about. We know that cigarette smoke and secondhand cigarette smoke is dangerous and has been proven to cause cancer. There is no proof that burning a candle has caused any cases of cancer or that there is enough carcinogens produced to be harmful to people. Its just simply untrue and misleading to make such a claim when there is no evidence. A lot of this kind of misinformation was started by unscrupulous manufacturers trying to badmouth paraffin to sell soy as a 'natural' and clean product. Don't get me started on how 'natural' soy is.

[Georgia]

I don't think the OP question was about soot or carcinogens...she asked about soy burning longer so it's a better value and frost tells you it is a true soy candle. The frost part used to be true, but there are natural additives that reduce the frost so I'm not sure that is a valid point anymore. Soy does burn cooler which could make it last longer, but a properly wicked paraffin candle can burn just as long.

[Bernadette]

Hey guys, as I stated in my original post, their about soy page started out with all the #$%^ we've heard about the paraffin vs. soy debate for years. I heard it too...before I decided I was going into the paraffin candles ~ and that was over 11 years ago now. I agree. Sooting is a factor of wicking, fragrance, etc., NOT the wax. I wasn't trying to start that debate again.:tiptoe:

What I was looking for was if soy wax costs more than paraffin, and if white spots on the sides and top of a candle definitely proves it's a 100% soy candle. This is now one of two sites I've read this on. Just asking because I have no interest in soy and since I don't buy that wax or make those types of candles have no idea if those two points are true.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Bernadette

[rjdaines]

I am working with both soy and paraffin wax and, yes, soy can produce "wet spots" in glass containers and will also produce some surface "frosting". Different soy waxes will have varying degrees of the above ranging for none at all to "OMG, that is ugly". Soot productions seems to be a function of the burning process regardless of what the fuel is because of over wicking and improper combustion. Maybe paraffin gets a bad "rap" because it is easier to over wick (burns easier than soy - my observations). As far as the type of toxic products of that combustion, that would depend of the chemical make-up of the wax and the secondary ingredients added (color and fragrance) used. I won't even speculate on what those might me. I would also imagine that adequate room ventilation is important in either case. Just my thoughts.

[chuck_35550]

Truth in advertising would state: results may vary according to the individual consumer's practices or failure to follow mfg burning recommendations. All of this is strictly subjective to the environment (drafts, fans, power burns, ect). The question can't reasonably be answered because there are too many variables. All combustion produces by-product. It isn't apparent until you clean and find it on the paper towel or cleaning rag. Leaving the consumer out of the equation is unwise. You may have the most perfectly wicked candle in the universe and then the consumer sets the candle under a ceiling fan and burns it for 8 hours straight and then complains about soot on the jar and flame dancing too much. Lastly, just try to get a comprehensive report on the harvesting, processing and storing of any wax. Soy, palm, cottonseed, coconut, straight, blended soy or parrafin....who knows? The shadow do. HTH

Steve

[Bernadette]

I never should have started the original post with what else was on the page. Not at all interested in starting that debate again.:tiptoe:

Here are the questions:

1. The "about soy" page stated that soy is more expensive than paraffin? Really? I don't make soy so I don't know, but the last time I looked it was alot less expensive than paraffin.

2. White spots on the sides and top of soy candles guarantee you're purchasing an all soy candle? Really? Or is this like the thread awhile back where candle sites were saying that a "mushrooming wick assures that the maximum fragrance load was used" (implying that a mushroom should be there because they couldn't get it to stop mushrooming).

Edited April 19, 2011 by Bernadette

[Candybee]

I've seen paraffin that costs more than soy and vice versa. Although I would have to say that I see more types of soy offered at cheaper prices than paraffin. So that claim only has basis for a specific wax and not soy in general.

As far as the white spots I have to assume they are referring to frosting. Frosting is natural but it can also be avoided through different pouring techniques, heating and cooling, tempering, and other issues. I can make creamy looking soy candles without any visible frosting as can many other soy candle makers so to state that white spots guarantee its a soy candle is misleading. I read between the lines and what this person is saying is the white spots on my candles are normal and I am too lazy to figure out how to make candles without them.

I love the marketing of the mushrooming wick as the 'fragrance delivery system'. I found it amusing. Not what I would use but it is funny.

[HorseScentS]

You should point the finger directly at yourself and your choice of wicks rather than the paraffin.

Exactly! Even in homes that never burn candles or anything else you will see a lighter wall color behind hung paintings if they don't WASH THEIR WALLS annually to remove normal dust.

[HorseScentS]

Here we gooooo.... It doesn't matter. People are gonna say what they wanna say to sell THEIR product. Not you, me, or anybody could change that so there's no point in caring who puts what on their site. There's so much FALSE advertisement/ facts in all industry's... It's my personal choice not to go that route but many people don't care as long as they just sell something. And soy does frost so I wouldn't call that ABnormal...

When I was in sales, the first rules were: never bash the competition & never lie, but I see soooo much of that on soy candle websites that even though I originally wanted to make soy candles, I'm offended now by all the dishonest hype & very turned off to soy.

[sbs]

When I was in sales, the first rules were: never bash the competition & never lie, but I see soooo much of that on soy candle websites that even though I originally wanted to make soy candles, I'm offended now by all the dishonest hype & very turned off to soy.

I was taught that in elementary Lol.. still doesn't mean people won't do it. Why would you be "turned off" to soy because of what other people do and say? YOu don't have to do it. Some people are probably ignorant to the "facts" and genuinely don't know any better... not saying that they shouldn't have done their own research beforehand but as far as BASHING I've see it on both sides of the fence and it's UUUUUGGGLY. Lol.. I'm an independent on the issue because like I said earlier, you can't change what people think they know and already believe (most of the time) so I could give a rats tail what anybody says on their website... I prefer to focus on making beautiful, safe, sell-themselves-without-all-the-facts candles. And when somebody asks.. I'll tell them what I've learned to be true... without bashing of course.

[HorseScentS]

Why would you be "turned off" to soy because of what other people do and say? YOu don't have to do it.

Because I think it's a scam. I no longer see any benefits to soy. Palm is pretty, though. Of Course I don't have to make soy candles & I also don't have to buy them. If others want to make, sell, or buy soy candles, fine. But the hype is offensive, especially when paraffin candle makers lose business due to false statements about their product causing cancer or giving off petroleum fumes. Ridiculous.

Edited April 19, 2011 by HorsescentS

[deb426]

Because I think it's a scam. Of Course I don't have to do it & I also don't have to buy it. If others want to do it, fine.

I think calling soy wax a "scam" is a little harsh. To me, its just another type of wax, just like paraffin, palm, beeswax, or anything else. I like working with it and for me, its available locally so I don't have to pay shipping. Just because I choose to make my candles out of soy doesn't make me a scammer and I kind of take exception to that. Not to start something here but geez...I don't like to be called a scammer just because of the type of wax I use. I don't tell my customers any of those myths and I actually am pretty quick to correct them when given the opportunity. There are plenty of scammers out there who use paraffin, like those candlemakers who only scent the top layer of wax. To me, the scam comes from invalid claims made by a person or an entity, not the product itself.

[sbs]

Because I think it's a scam. I no longer see any benefits to soy.

What's a scam? The soy or the person selling the soy? There's a difference. And what are the "benefits" of any wax? Really the whole debate is ridiculous. False/ Misleading claims are all scams. Everytime you turn on the television something is false or misleading. Doesn't make it right... but who can change it?

[sbs]

I think calling soy wax a "scam" is a little harsh. To me, its just another type of wax, just like paraffin, palm, beeswax, or anything else. I like working with it

Ditto!

[Stella1952]

"Greenwashing" is a particular irritant to me, but so is customer ignorance. I'm glad the OP is asking questions and not just falling for the BS.

"Sheeple" will believe anything and shame on those who manipulate them. Ethical sellers simply tell the verifiable truth about their products and let quality speak for itself. People who are into manipulation and scams lie, mislead and misinform. sometimes they win; sometimes they lose. It's a predator-prey situation. That's life. I see this happen on a tiny scale of small business websites parroting what they have read or heard, all the way to global campaigns (like the palm wax vs. soy wax rivalry which, believe me, has NOTHING to do with the powers that be giving a crap about sustainability or orangutans or rainforests or monoculture crops or fair trade or workers' rights. It's about MONEY and making it NOW. Palm oil was making too big a dent into Big Soy's market. Greenpeace et all are being duped and used by evil greedheads). "Sheeple" come in all colors and from all walks of life. Some are *greenies* and believe and repeat everything said by green organizations like parrots reciting the bible. They don't check their facts any better than those on the other side of the issues. They accept information as accurate from people who they perceive to think like them, not because it's necessarily true or accurate (same as Fox news watchers).

As Mark Twain wisely said: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."

It's up to each of us to independently educate ourselves about issues and NOT take the word of industry, media, non-profit groups or website owners who ALL have vested interests in manipulating our opinions and behavior.

Paraffin = Big Petroleum OIL

Soy = Big Soy OIL

Palm = Big Palm OIL

They are all cut from the same cloth and their last names are all the same: OIL. The ONLY wax that is NOT tied to that dirtbag industry (Big OIL) is beeswax. Beeswax proponents have a right to make certain claims because their product IS mostly what it is touted to be.

PS I make only vegetable wax candles so my opinions are NOT slanted because of the waxes I choose as ingredients for my products.

[sbs]

They accept information as accurate from people who they perceive to think like them, not because it's necessarily true or accurate (same as Fox news watchers)

AINT THAT THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lol... I love how you put things Stella.

[HorseScentS]

I think calling soy wax a "scam" is a little harsh. To me, its just another type of wax, just like paraffin, palm, beeswax, or anything else. I like working with it and for me, its available locally so I don't have to pay shipping. Just because I choose to make my candles out of soy doesn't make me a scammer and I kind of take exception to that. Not to start something here but geez...I don't like to be called a scammer just because of the type of wax I use. I don't tell my customers any of those myths and I actually am pretty quick to correct them when given the opportunity. There are plenty of scammers out there who use paraffin, like those candlemakers who only scent the top layer of wax. To me, the scam comes from invalid claims made by a person or an entity, not the product itself.

I did not say that YOU are a scammer just because you like to make soy candles. The hype & lies surrounding soy is the scam.

[HorseScentS]

What's a scam? The soy or the person selling the soy? There's a difference. And what are the "benefits" of any wax? Really the whole debate is ridiculous. False/ Misleading claims are all scams. Everytime you turn on the television something is false or misleading. Doesn't make it right... but who can change it?

The hype & lies surrounding the soy wax is the scam.

[HorseScentS]

"Greenwashing" is a particular irritant to me, but so is customer ignorance. I'm glad the OP is asking questions and not just falling for the BS.

"Sheeple" will believe anything and shame on those who manipulate them. Ethical sellers simply tell the verifiable truth about their products and let quality speak for itself. People who are into manipulation and scams lie, mislead and misinform. sometimes they win; sometimes they lose. It's a predator-prey situation. That's life. I see this happen on a tiny scale of small business websites parroting what they have read or heard, all the way to global campaigns (like the palm wax vs. soy wax rivalry which, believe me, has NOTHING to do with the powers that be giving a crap about sustainability or orangutans or rainforests or monoculture crops or fair trade or workers' rights. It's about MONEY and making it NOW. Palm oil was making too big a dent into Big Soy's market. Greenpeace et all are being duped and used by evil greedheads). "Sheeple" come in all colors and from all walks of life. Some are *greenies* and believe and repeat everything said by green organizations like parrots reciting the bible. They don't check their facts any better than those on the other side of the issues. They accept information as accurate from people who they perceive to think like them, not because it's necessarily true or accurate (same as Fox news watchers).

As Mark Twain wisely said: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."

It's up to each of us to independently educate ourselves about issues and NOT take the word of industry, media, non-profit groups or website owners who ALL have vested interests in manipulating our opinions and behavior.

Paraffin = Big Petroleum OIL

Soy = Big Soy OIL

Palm = Big Palm OIL

They are all cut from the same cloth and their last names are all the same: OIL. The ONLY wax that is NOT tied to that dirtbag industry (Big OIL) is beeswax. Beeswax proponents have a right to make certain claims because their product IS mostly what it is touted to be.

PS I make only vegetable wax candles so my opinions are NOT slanted because of the waxes I choose as ingredients for my products.

Very well said, Stella!