LOTS of questions-newbie

[rachelb5499]

Ok, so I've got an "itch" to do some different things. I basically only do bath and body and already make cold process soap, lotions, etc. I've thought about learning how to do "tarts," but think that I'd really like to stick with bath and body type products right now. I've NEVER done Melt and Pour and really don't know much about it......

1.) Are there any particular threads you would recommend for me to read? (I've started reading, but I have a lot more to go and would love any recs.)

2.) Has anyone used WSP's "natural" M&P base? If so, issues, tips, suggestions, likes, dislikes, etc?

3.) I'm obviously going to buy some and just start testing/trying things out, but what types of colorants? I use "select shades" for cold process. Would that work just fine? Looks like depending on the FO, 3-5% is the recommended usage, right?

4.) So FOs with vanilla like Pink Sugar as an example......do they still typically discolor M&P and turn some shade of brown like they do in CP?

5.) What are the things you like most about M&P? IF you do CP or have, which do you prefer if you have a preference?

TIA for everyone's responses!

[B@BlissStreet]

Candybee submitted the most amazing thread for m&p:

http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90126

[comfortscents]

Ok, so I've got an "itch" to do some different things. I basically only do bath and body and already make cold process soap, lotions, etc. I've thought about learning how to do "tarts," but think that I'd really like to stick with bath and body type products right now. I've NEVER done Melt and Pour and really don't know much about it......

1.) Are there any particular threads you would recommend for me to read? (I've started reading, but I have a lot more to go and would love any recs.)

2.) Has anyone used WSP's "natural" M&P base? If so, issues, tips, suggestions, likes, dislikes, etc?

3.) I'm obviously going to buy some and just start testing/trying things out, but what types of colorants? I use "select shades" for cold process. Would that work just fine? Looks like depending on the FO, 3-5% is the recommended usage, right?

4.) So FOs with vanilla like Pink Sugar as an example......do they still typically discolor M&P and turn some shade of brown

like they do in CP?

5.) What are the things you like most about M&P? IF you do CP or have, which do you prefer if you have a preference?

TIA for everyone's responses!

I have used WSP's ultra white base for 5 years, because of some changes in WSP's pricing and products I continued to use it..I could order from them on Monday and my base is on my porch Wednesday morning. Someone here kindly sent me some base from the chemistry store and my first requirement that it be

Really white white was met plus iy cools down faster I was mui impressed so I just ordered 50lbs of it and will phase out my WSP base.

Pink Sugar is the bane of my existence...I love the scent but getting a true pink with it for me is futile...even with a vanilla stabilizer it still makes my soaps yellowish pink...in wax I use a fushia powdered dye to get my pink but I'm a Victorian pink person so I'm never 100% happy with my finished product cuz it screams P I N K. !!!!!!!!!

[rachelb5499]

Thank you to both of you! I'll certainly read that thread! I'll also have to check into the chemistry store. I'd like to with WSP for a few reasons and because of their detergent free base, etc., but I'm certainly not "stuck" on them per say either so that was helpful.

So was "white, white" not achieved so much with WSP or how was the Chemistry store's better exactly? (I apologize if I'm having a blonde moment.)

Pink sugar is a beast! But "yellow" would be better than the brown you get with CP as it cures....maybe go for a purple or a blueish tint or something...I don't know..yellow just seems more workable but bummer it doesn't just stay WHITE so that you can color pink like we'd all like.

[rachelb5499]

Does anyone have any tips about M&P? Even just basic things that as a seasoned M&Per, you take for granted as a "duh."?

I know part of it is just testing and trying yourself and I SO plan to. I just like to get as much helpful info. as possible before jumping in to something. :smiley2:

How much M&P would you recommend for an absolute newbie to buy? Do you think 2 lbs, 4lbs, 6lbs, or?

I read on here that a good portion of folks seem to use a soap melter from Michael's. I was there yesterday and my Michael's didn't have one (I live over an hour away from "civilization" so just thought I'd check since I was all the way "in town" anyway. I just wanted to see what it looked like, etc., but I'd also seen on here that someone suggested using a rice cooker and they said it was basically the same thing except cheaper. Does anyone have any advice on how to use either appliance?

Is there a minimum of M&P you should put in one, etc?

Do you have to watch it to keep it from burning typically or is it low enough on a melter or rice cooker to not have to worry about it?

How do you pour from it or get the soap out.....let's say if you were doing different colors or something along those lines?

Different colors, reminds me, if I wanted to do a "layered soap," is there a general amount of time to wait for one layer to "set up" before pouring the second? (I do CP so I have to have my colors colored at almost the same time and pour almost immediately but leaving a little time or one color will just sink into the other so just curious about the difference with M&P)

Thank you once again to everyone who reads and responds to even just one of my questions!

[Faerywren]

SFIC soap bases are nice. All the ingredients are recognizable on the label and no added detergents. A number of suppliers (Bramble Berry, Elements, Peak to name a few) carry their base.

[mparadise]

I am trying to switch a lot of stuff away from WSP too because of the new pricing but I have had good luck with Pink Sugar from C&S staying pink when I use the WSP Clear Pro, WSP pink mica and add in WSP Vanilla Neutralizer (from their lotion/B&B section not the soap one). I have soap that I made at the begining of last summer that is the same color as the day I made it. I haven't tried the mica and neutralizer in white base yet but that combo worked perfectly in the clear so I would imagine it would be fine in the white since the only difference is the TD added to make it white.

I don't use a melter for the base so I can't help you there. I just have a bunch of big pyrex measuring cups that I use in the microwave. Works perfectly for me and they are easy to clean between batches.

If you aren't sure what type of base you want to use I would stick with 2-4 lbs of a couple different ones to play with. That way you haven't put in a ton of $$ but still get to play with them. I've melted as little as 4 oz at a time in the microwave, you just have to do it in short bursts and watch it so you don't overheat it.

[mparadise]

I forgot to add that I have really been liking using micas and the BC gel tones for colorants in MP. I had bought a set of FD&C colorants from C&S when I first started but I have issues with the brown, purple and red not mixing correctly and leaving horrible specks in the soap. I haven't had this issue with the gel tones and as long as I mix well I haven't had an issue with the micas either.

I don't do CP yet but one thing I do like about MP is that it doesn't have to cure before use and I can typically shrink wrap it after 24 hrs. and am ready to go. Great for the fall when I sell out of a scent at a show and have another event the following weekend. Makes keeping up with available stock a little easier.

Edited March 5, 2011 by mparadise

[rachelb5499]

Thank you to both of you for your replies!

The only reason I'm not thrilled about the microwave because all my reading has suggested that you do short bursts...like every 30 seconds, then stir. Where my microwave is at is a PAIN to get at (little house) so not thrilled about that routine annoyance and really can't move my micro, but I might just figure something out. I certainly own a lot of big glass measuring cups (for CP measuring) so that's certainly taken care of already.

It sounds like a lot of you have been ordering from WSP for awhile and the price hikes have really hit some nerves. For me, I always calculate the shipping cost into my products and so I started ordering from WSP for quite a few things this year because I "always know" what the total cost will be...even if I buy the very minimum I might need last minute or whatever. Plus, for most things, when I've gone to my other suppliers....put something into the cart, then pre-calculated shipping, I noticed WSP still came out ahead or the same probably 75% of the time. I know I'll still be checking to be sure that stays true off and on, but I'm excited about WSP myself. But I HATE it when I count on a price from someone and every time I go to order, it's jumped up in price so I totally understand what you're going through!

Faery, WSP also has a no detergent, "natural" MP base...and when I went to SFIC (crap...did I get those initials in the right order...hehehe), it looked like they had fairly big initial minimums, but I've seen a lot of people recommend them. Since I've never done MP, I don't know how "quality" varies from base to base. Is theirs, a lot higher quality or? What are the reasons people specifically keep suggesting them?

[Pam W]

Screw the microwave.....set a sauce pan on the stove, fill about 1/3 with water, cut up a pound of M&P, put it in a coffee can, set that in the pan of water and melt it. Do not over heat - heat just long enough to melt. Add some FO and color if you want then pour into a mold.

There are things you can add to the base to make a harder bar of soap, but I suggest you melt & pour one just to get the general idea of what you're doing.........them come back and ask some questions -- after you have read thru the forum.

[Faerywren]

Screw the microwave.....set a sauce pan on the stove, fill about 1/3 with water, cut up a pound of M&P, put it in a coffee can, set that in the pan of water and melt it. Do not over heat - heat just long enough to melt. Add some FO and color if you want then pour into a mold.

There are things you can add to the base to make a harder bar of soap, but I suggest you melt & pour one just to get the general idea of what you're doing.........them come back and ask some questions -- after you have read thru the forum.

I used to do the "double boiler" method at first. My microwave at the time came with the house and was ancient and crappy.

[Candybee]

Welcome to the world of M&P! M&P is more versatile than CP soap in the way you can manipulate it when making soaps. But you do need to find a base you like and learn how to work with it. Not all bases are the same and some lose their lather when you put in any oil and butter additives while others retain their lather with anything you throw at it. Its fun to experiment with M&P and great for the person who enjoys exploring their crafty side.

I tried to answer some of your questions. I hope this may help you get started!

How much M&P would you recommend for an absolute newbie to buy? Do you think 2 lbs, 4lbs, 6lbs, or?

I first started out with a sample kit of all the different bases in 2 lb blocks. That way I was able to decide which bases I like. Now I mostly use white, clear, goat milk. But I also like shea butter, aloe, hemp, and cocoa butter bases. But I found that I can make my own base simply by using a white base and using my own additives. Cheaper too. But for clear soap I use a clear base. White bases are opaque because they have added titanium dioxide for whitening.

I read on here that a good portion of folks seem to use a soap melter from Michael's... Does anyone have any advice on how to use either appliance?

I bought a Life of the Party Soap Kettle at Michaels about 4 yrs ago. It was the last one they had in stock and I don't think they carry them anymore.

So when it died last year I purchased a lovely rice cooker at Walmart. They are perfect for heating M&P bases and keeping them warm. I bought an Aroma brand rice cooker.

Is there a minimum of M&P you should put in one, etc?

My rice cooker can hold 12 cups so I weigh out base to fill the cooker.

Do you have to watch it to keep it from burning typically or is it low enough on a melter or rice cooker to not have to worry about it?

I do watch mine and when its fully melted I turn the cooking part over to the 'warm' setting. When I used to use my soap kettle it would auto shut off so I didn't have to watch it as it would switch to a warming setting on its own.

Whatever you use to melt your base in your heating temps should range from 150 - 180 degrees. This is also a good temp for adding you oils, butters, honey, etc. When you get ready to pour remember some molds like my Milky Way soap molds recommend you pour your base in at 135 degrees. I pour around150 but I go thru a lot of molds that way. I just don't have time to wait for my base to cool to 135. But if you want them to last follow the manufacturers recos for pouring into the mold.

How do you pour from it or get the soap out.....let's say if you were doing different colors or something along those lines?

I just use a small measuring cup or mug. I transfer the melted base using my mug and pour it into a large pyrex 1 quart measuring cup/bowl with the spout. The pyrex bowl can hold up to 2 lbs of melted base and thats the most I need for my recipes. Once the base is in the large pyrex bowl I put in my dyes, scent, additives, etc. and blend.

Different colors, reminds me, if I wanted to do a "layered soap," is there a general amount of time to wait for one layer to "set up" before pouring the second?

You should allow the first layer to form a 'skin' before you pour the next layer (think of jello pudding here). It also helps if you spritz alcohol over each layer before adding the next. The alcohol helps with adhesion. But just a very light mist is all you need. I reuse old spray bottles with a mist feature on them for my alcohol mister.

Alcohol is also used for getting rid of unsightly bubbles that sometimes appear when you pour a soap into a mold. Just spritz lightly to get rid of the bubble. Personally I love the look of bubbles on my soap and never spritz.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Candybee

[rachelb5499]

Thank you to the three of you for your latest responses!

Candybee, thank you for answering so many questions in one response! GREAT answers! So clear, helpful, etc. Are you a teacher or trainer by chance? heh heh

That's great to know about the "cook/warm" settings on the rice cooker and when to switch from setting to the other. I read A LOT more of the threads again last night. I noticed that everyone is so split on what base they like that I definitely need to just order and check different ones out. I WOULD like to add some additives down the line into the base so it's very helpful to know that not all bases work/accept additives in the same way. I noticed you don't seem to like WSP bases for that very reason....which is too bad because that's who I'm leaning towards. I figure I'll order some "sample" 2 pounders like you suggested and just give it a go though.

Four things attract me to WSP, all bases I've looked at are "Made in the USA," good customer service, "natural" bases with recognizable ingredients, and the cost...even with shipping included into the pricing, they are much less than any other supplier I've looked at. (I must confess that I didn't completely "check out" at C&S to see how much shipping would cost me per 2lbs though....I "hate" it when websites make you do that.)

I live in CA so shipping is usually always a ton and there aren't any local suppliers around here. Even the suppliers in Southern Cali cost MORE without even adding shipping charges in than all the other suppliers who ship to me when adding IN their shipping charges.

[Candybee]

Since you live in CA check out Essentials by Catalina www.essentialsbycatalina.com

They have a very good price on bulk bases. One of the best I've seen and they are close to you so shipping should make a big diff.

I have switched from C&S bases to The Chemistry Store bases. The Chemistry Store has Stephensons bases which are good quality. I still love C&S but due to their high price increases plus always being out of stock and shipping have taken their toll. The Chemistry Store just has the best bang for my buck and I can buy in much larger quantities for less.

I didn't try all the bases from WSP. Since I use white mostly thats what I tried. Once I added butters and oils to it I got no lather. Thats why I gave up on it. Others swear by their bases so if they appeal to you go for it. You can always add shaving soap or liquid soap to give your base more lather.

Prairieannie does and she makes fabulous GM soap! BTW-- she uses bases from Essentials by Catalina.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Candybee

[rachelb5499]

Thanks! You're Awesome!

One more question....regarding labeling....I assume you list ingredients like the supplier does for their base, then calculate and add into that listing whatever you've added.

Also, I've read a lot of issues/complaints about M&P not lasting long in the shower, etc. Have you found this to be true? Obviously, a LOT of factors come into play.....how many people were using the soap, did it sit in a rack or in a puddle of water, etc. etc. etc. But if you have any experience with CP of your own...how would you compare M&P and it's "lasting" power to a CP bar you've used...just GENERALLY speaking...too many variable to be precise I know.

Edited March 6, 2011 by rachelb5499

[Candybee]

Since I sell at craft shows I have lots of friends that make CP and love it myself!

Remember when I mentioned not all M&P bases are alike. Some are very soft. To make a hard bar I use additives like coconut oil, cocoa butter, palm stearic. You can even use beeswax but I never did.

My bars come out rock hard using 76 degree CO and cocoa butter. I use approximately 1 tsp or 5g per lb of base of each. For those super soft bases I also use 1 tsp of palm stearic per lb of base. The soft bases I know of are SFIC, WSP, Essential by Catalina. By soft base I mean one you can actually bend or impress your thumb in the base. Harder bases like the Stephensons and C&S bases aren't bendable.

Additives that tend to soften bases are honey, sugar, milk, olive oil, etc. But you can add any of these or all of them successfully by experimenting. Try some of my recipes in the M&P recipes thread.

Once you have a rock hard bar of M&P soap it will last a long time. My customers are always raving to me about how long their soaps last. Just like a regular bar of soap. If someone complains that it didn't last long I ask them if they are letting the soap dry in between uses. It always turns out they didn't or didn't even think about keeping them dry. So I explain to them that they should use a soap dish to allow the soap to stay dry and that any soap will turn to mush if left in a puddle of water.

[rachelb5499]

Thanks for EVERYTHING....EBC is still much more with shipping than WSP...so I'll probably just try them first and see. Gotta start somewhere. I'll just keep in mind that their base is either loved or hated depending. LOL And certainly won't give up on MP based on their particular natural bases. Being in California, everything has to be "natural," "organic," or blah blah blah. LOL

I'm THINKING about using MP as an alternative to doing so much CP so wanted to find something with "similar" ingredients, etc. but more than likely will want to add additives so I'll just try and see....worse comes to worse, I'll make pretty soaps with not as many skin loving ingredients until I find a base that works for me. Thank you for ALL the info and help!

[Candybee]

A couple of things you're going to love about m&P. You can use the bar the moment its hard enough. No need to cure it. Second, lots of EOs and FOs work great in it without the scent disappearing or morphing. Downside are FOs with vanilla in them. There is vanilla stabilizer and WSP has it if you decide to do a vanilla scent.

I list all the ingredients in my soap. So I copy the suppliers list and add in my color, dyes, additives, etc. I try to add them in the proper order but you don't really know since the formula is a guarded secret like a lot of supplies. But I usually add after glycerin and before the trace chemicals. If I remember correctly WSP has some guidance on where to add you stuff. At least I remember reading on a suppliers site and think its WSP. WSP has so much info on each of their products so they are a good one to start with.

Good luck!

[mdmd]

I've used WSP detergent free bases, and they're nice, but they do sweat a lot in humid climates. Also, the GM one is very soft, almost rubbery. The others are harder. And yes, the fragrances do discolor the MP. Also, just a side note, I find that I need to use a lot less FO or EO in MP than I do in CP to keep the same level of scent (with the exception of citruses, which are always tricky to soap with).

[rachelb5499]

Thanks to both of you! Well, I live in a humid climate so I'll just have to see about that. LOL I run a dehumidifer in my closet where I store my CP soaps when they are curing or just being stored so would do the same with MP until they were packaged.

I ALWAYS package in cello bags because it doesn't remove the scent, etc. so I'm already set for MP for that at least.

Good to know about the FO scenting percentage! Thanks. I'll go easy to begin with and add more if needed!

[comfortscents]

WSP ultra white is white white...But never call them and complain about something ....they don't like it

I'm switching to chemistry store because it meets my requirements, cools faster and I get more with lower shipping

Hth

Thank you to both of you! I'll certainly read that thread! I'll also have to check into the chemistry store. I'd like to with WSP for a few reasons and because of their detergent free base, etc., but I'm certainly not "stuck" on them per say either so that was helpful.

So was "white, white" not achieved so much with WSP or how was the Chemistry store's better exactly? (I apologize if I'm having a blonde moment.)

Pink sugar is a beast! But "yellow" would be better than the brown you get with CP as it cures....maybe go for a purple or a blueish tint or something...I don't know..yellow just seems more workable but bummer it doesn't just stay WHITE so that you can color pink like we'd all like.

[asheebeans]

I wanted to add that if you watch for the SFIC co-ops that are regularly run on here--you can try a little of everything and see what you like, then order accordingly! I bought a ridiculous amount of soap from the last co-op, and I'm embarassed to say that I haven't even had time to play with any! School is kickin' my butt this semester. But, I couldn't pass up those prices. Even shipped to me, it was still way cheaper than WSP. (who I used to use) MP soap is so much fun!!! You will love it!! Wait til you start buying molds--I swear that my stockroom looks like it was out of an episode of "Hoarders" when it comes to molds.....:tiptoe:

[prairieannie]

I just wanted to say Happy Soap Making! These girls have given you good advice! I'll just add that if I were to pick one single "best" additive for MP soap it would be goat's milk. It just LOVES the skin!

[rachelb5499]

Thanks, Everyone! I'd love to get in a Co-op, etc. but can't seem to even see "classifieds" on this board yet...maybe just not enough posts or something?

[Candybee]

I think you have to have 30 posts and /or 30 days before you can get into the classies. That keeps ppl from signing up just to spam the forums with sales ads and junk.