Temp to add FO

[jonsie]

I've decided to drop my wax pouring temperature from the 160s to the 100s, and I really don't like waiting for my wax to cool down all the way from 175F to the 100s. So I wanted to ask this question:

Why do we generally add FOs at higher temps such as 175 - 185 F?

The explanation I have read a few times here is that the FO needs to be added at the higher temperatures to incorporate it into the wax. But I wonder, since FO is already liquified, and the soy waxes are well above their melt points even at temps such as 150F, why not add the FO then?

If you have tested numerous temperatures to which you've added your FO, and tested your CT and HT, and established that the higher temps create better-smelling candles, then I would love to hear about that.

If you haven't tested, but add FO at the higher temps because that seems to be the general advice here, then I want to hear that too. I would put myself in this category.

However, from my own limited experience, I have used the lower temperatures to add citrusy FOs so they wouldn't smell rotten, and I've had good results. I've also added EOs at lower temps (140F) and had great results too.

So before I embark on a great deal of testing, I thought I'd check in with y'all first.

TIA

Susan

[soy327]

You bring up some very good questions. I pour my soy at about 105 degrees (464 mix with xcel) and have very good luck with it nice smooth tops no additives. However, I am finding lately that I'm not getting good HT with some new FO that I read are killer for other people. I will be interested to see what others have to say here. I am going to be paying closer attention to wicking and lowering the point at which I add my FO. Thanks Jonsie for bringing up this thread.

[Pam W]

and I really don't like waiting for my wax to cool down all the way from 175F to the 100s

===================

Patience, Grasshopper

[Stella1952]

When one adds FO (unless it's preheated) it lowers the temp in the wax anywhere from 5°-20°, depending on the temp of both liquids. No matter what temp the FO is added, what I find common to most methods is that they pour pretty quickly after the addition of FO. I think FO needs to be stirred into the wax for several minutes before pouring. Even though both are oils and both are liquid, it takes some complete stirring (not just doodling around a few times with a bamboo skewer) to thoroughly blend it into the wax.

I have added FO at higher temps (both for soy wax and palm wax) for many years with NO apparent loss of throw. I have also added it quite cool when I am pouring at cooler temps. No problem there, either.

I do NOT think this is an issue. I think that wicking and the properties of the FO and wax being used are more important to the ultimate hot throw potential of the candle than the actual temp at which it's added.

[Pam W]

Stella,

I agree with you on the fact that the FO needs to be stirred for it to properly incorporate with the wax. I always add my FO before adding any color because it makes it easy to see when some FOs simply sink to the bottom of the pot when not stirred enough. Some heavy oils will just puddle in the bottom of the pot.

[jonsie]

You bring up some very good questions. I pour my soy at about 105 degrees (464 mix with xcel) and have very good luck with it nice smooth tops no additives. However, I am finding lately that I'm not getting good HT with some new FO that I read are killer for other people. I will be interested to see what others have to say here. I am going to be paying closer attention to wicking and lowering the point at which I add my FO. Thanks Jonsie for bringing up this thread.

Thanks, soy! Good luck with that FO. I'm interested in how it works for you.

and I really don't like waiting for my wax to cool down all the way from 175F to the 100s

===================

Patience, Grasshopper

That must mean you've been adding your FOs at high temps. And I'll state my question again... do you add your FOs at high temps because you read here that you should do it, or have you tried it both ways and determined on your own that adding FOs at higher temps gives you better HT?

When one adds FO (unless it's preheated) it lowers the temp in the wax anywhere from 5°-20°, depending on the temp of both liquids. No matter what temp the FO is added, what I find common to most methods is that they pour pretty quickly after the addition of FO. I think FO needs to be stirred into the wax for several minutes before pouring. Even though both are oils and both are liquid, it takes some complete stirring (not just doodling around a few times with a bamboo skewer) to thoroughly blend it into the wax.

I agree with everything you said here. Although I omitted the point about stirring originally, I believe it is critical.

I have added FO at higher temps (both for soy wax and palm wax) for many years with NO apparent loss of throw. I have also added it quite cool when I am pouring at cooler temps. No problem there, either.

I do NOT think this is an issue. I think that wicking and the properties of the FO and wax being used are more important to the ultimate hot throw potential of the candle than the actual temp at which it's added.

Thank you for your reponse. This is the kind of feedback I was looking for.

[Candybee]

I remember reading discussions on this forum some time ago on temp for adding FO to soy. I recall that there were several wide ranging answers to this. Some who added at high temps of 185+ and some who favored adding at 175 degrees or less on down to as low as 125 I think. There were some who complained that they were not getting good hot throw adding at lower temps of anywhere from 165 - 125.

I don't think it really proves anything except as there are so many variables to not having a good hot throw. But I do accept it as an indicator that those that are pouring at a temp range within the manufacturers recos seem to be having the best luck with scent throw.

Personally I like to add at higher temps of 180 or more depending on the wax blend (but within the manfacturer's recos). The only problems I've experienced so far with no scent throw is from the FO itself not working with my wax, i.e.; it was reformulated, or just cheap, not enough cure time, or wrong wick.

As far as 'unincorporated' wax I have only experienced this when I add too much so I got oil seepege. Don't think I have ever had a problem with not stirring my wax long enough as I like to watch the FO blend into the wax when I add it.

[jonsie]

Candybee, thanks for your input. You mentioned following the manufacturer's recommendations for their wax, and to be honest, I am not sure what my manufacturer recommends since I don't see it on their website. I'll send them an email and ask them directly. But like you also said, there are so many variables, and the composition of the FO may play a huge role in the best temperature to add it to the wax.

In the meantime I went to my supplier's website, and read their 'How to Make a Soy Candle' guide. According to them, it's more important to add your dye at the higher temperature to give it as much opportunity to disperse with stirring. Then as your wax approaches pouring temperature, add your FO, again stirring to work it through the wax.

Another supplier recommended basing the temp at which the FO was poured on the FO's flashpoint: the higher the flashpoint, the closer to 185 F, the lower, then closer to 160 F. So it sounds as if FO composition does play a role and can be an indicator of when to add it.

[Candybee]

I've had problems with my dyes not incorporating when adding at low temps. I mostly use dye chips. So I learned to heat my wax up to at least 180-185 degrees before adding the dye chips so they will fully melt. Then I add my FO. I don't wait to add FO to just before pouring. So that is probably why I learned to add FO at higher temps. It works for me so I don't wanna fix what ain't broke!

You're right different suppliers have different instructions for heating and pouring wax and adding FO. So I go directly to the manufacturers site and get their recos whenever possible.

Out of the suppliers sites that I use to get wax instructions that have helped me the most are C&S, Peaks, and CS in that order. So far their instructions have been pretty spot on.

[HorseScentS]

A local Chandler said to add FO at as hot a temp as possible or it won't bond with the wax; & she also mixes very thoroughly, even pouring the wax back-and-forth between 2 melt pots to get the FO really mixed in.

I also read a website that recommends always mixing dye & FO together thoroughly & then adding both at the same time at the highest temp.

[Stella1952]

If there is one absolute rule about the temp at which FO should be added to soy wax, it is that there IS no absolute rule.

[TxSioux]

Stella - are you still tempering your soy?

Susan.

[chuck_35550]

I've used a hand mixer (with beaters) to see if the wax and fo would uniformly blend or incorporate and didn't see any noticeable difference. I think most people heat wax to the higher degree because once you add dye and fo and do the stirring and are ready to pour; the wax has cooled to the right temp. At least thats how I do my thing but my pot stays on a burner with a thermometer (oven type with silver wire) and stir each time I pour a candle. Wax and oil do not chemically bond. HTH

Steve

[HorseScentS]

I've used a hand mixer (with beaters) to see if the wax and fo would uniformly blend or incorporate and didn't see any noticeable difference. I think most people heat wax to the higher degree because once you add dye and fo and do the stirring and are ready to pour; the wax has cooled to the right temp. At least thats how I do my thing but my pot stays on a burner with a thermometer (oven type with silver wire) and stir each time I pour a candle. Wax and oil do not chemically bond. HTH

Steve

I went back to the candle shop yesterday, & the chandler said that most of her FOs work when she adds them to her parasoy wax at 200, but there are a few FOs that will not work unless she adds them at 250, like Vanilla Cake.

[Wessex]

250 degrees!!! I have never gotten wax this hot (on purpose, LOL). Does anyone go this high!? Never had any problems adding FO to soy at 175-190 degrees, or to palm at 175-200.

Cheers,

Steve

[HorseScentS]

250 degrees!!! I have never gotten wax this hot (on purpose, LOL). Does anyone go this high!? Never had any problems adding FO to soy at 175-190 degrees, or to palm at 175-200.

Cheers,

Steve

She said that the flash point on her parasoy wax is 400.

[Stella1952]

the chandler said that most of her FOs work when she adds them to her parasoy wax at 200, but there are a few FOs that will not work unless she adds them at 250, like Vanilla Cake...

That's ludicrous.

She said that the flash point on her parasoy wax is 400.

Flash point has NOTHING to do with the temp at which one adds FO. I suggest you find another "expert."

[WillowBoo]

my wax mix doesn't compleltely melt until it reaches 190 to 195 - I then turn the pot off immediately pour into the pour pot and add my FO. Sometimes, I've let the heat get too hot after melting and you can see a little sizzle.

If I put the FO in then, I think the FO gets burned off. If the wax is melted and not sizzling, I put in the FO. I think everything depends on what you're using. I do know that after putting in the FO - the scent will pop out, and you can't put your nose close to the pour pot. That's when I know it will work.

I don't use a thermometer all the time because I've had too many traumas with them.

[HorseScentS]

That's ludicrous.

Flash point has NOTHING to do with the temp at which one adds FO. I suggest you find another "expert."

She only mentioned that the flash point of 6006 was 400 because I asked if there was a danger of the 6006 bursting into flames when she adds FOs at 250, those few FOs that she said needed to be added at 250 in order to throw a scent. She adds the rest at 200. Her candles are really awesome, so this must work for her...

[Candybee]

Just because a flash point is 400 doesn't mean that you can or should heat to such high temps as 250 degrees. Yikes! That sounds like an accident waiting to happen to me. Something important to remember is that once wax reaches its heating temp it can heat up very quickly. At 250 which is over the manufacturers recommended heating temp it can heat up exponentially faster very quickly. I think your expert is lucky.

It should also concern her that no manufacturer or supplier for that matter would ever recommend heating a wax that high for any purpose and certainly not to add FOs or dyes at. Even if she were insured I don't think the insurer would cover any accidents for heating at such high temps. Especially since no manufacturer would endorse or recommend it. Something to think about.

There is also the possibility that you are damaging or ruining part or all of the components of FOs with temps that high. I seriously doubt that it makes any FO 'throw better'. What makes a great throw has many factors none of which is mixing it into a pot of 250 degree wax. Sorry but your friend is misguided.

[HorseScentS]

Just because a flash point is 400 doesn't mean that you can or should heat to such high temps as 250 degrees. Yikes! That sounds like an accident waiting to happen to me. Something important to remember is that once wax reaches its heating temp it can heat up very quickly. At 250 which is over the manufacturers recommended heating temp it can heat up exponentially faster very quickly. I think your expert is lucky.

Yikes! I'm so glad I checked here first. Whew!

[soy327]

HorsescentS, I'm so glad you are taking this in the manner it's intended, I think these posters are worried more about your safety than anything. I was biting my tongue.:laugh2:and hoping. WOW

Jonsie sorry hope you don't think this was a hijack.

[HorseScentS]

HorsescentS, I'm so glad you are taking this in the manner it's intended, I think these posters are worried more about your safety than anything. I was biting my tongue.:laugh2:and hoping. WOW

Jonsie sorry hope you don't think this was a hijack.

Safety first! It's not worth the risk of getting burned!

[HorseScentS]

HorsescentS, I'm so glad you are taking this in the manner it's intended, I think these posters are worried more about your safety than anything. I was biting my tongue.:laugh2:and hoping. WOW

Jonsie sorry hope you don't think this was a hijack.

Safety first! It's not worth the risk of getting burned

[HorseScentS]

Soy327: More thoughts:

It's not a hi jack because adding the FO at 250 might have worked for Jonsie, but you guys say it's not safe & I'll take your word for it, even though this chandler makes great candles. But, if you heat the wax to 250 in a temp controlled Presto Pot by setting the dial to 250, how can the temp get above 250?

& if we use a Presto Pot to deep fry chicken, don't we have the hot grease up around 350? So why would it be any more dangerous than that to heat 6006 wax to 250? Just askin'...