Iodine and INS numbers (SoapCalc)

[Mitch23]

I've been playing around with the soap calc for the last month or so, putting in the different oils/butters I have on hand, and playing with percentages. I'm having some problems with high iodine numbers, and low INS. I can not figure out if I'm trying the wrong percentages of oils, or just the wrong oils. Do any of you find that any particular oils lower or raise either of these numbers.

I know they are just guidelines, but I've made two batches of cphp in the last month or so, and I just don't like them. The bars are really soft and only last maybe a week, if that.

The oils I have are:

Sweet Almond, Apricot Kernel, Macadamia Nut, Evening Primrose, Shea butter, Palm Kernel, Crisco (the new one), Great Value Shortening, Grapeseed, Walnut (haven't used), and the usual ones from the grocery store (Olive, Canola, etc.)

I also have some Stearic Acid, but haven't read anything about how to use it in soap, so haven't used it yet.

Mitch T.

[LovelyLathers]

It would help if you posted the recipe you used and are not happy with. It will be easier to help you out. But if the soap is soft and dissolves quickly my first thoughts are, it is not cured long enough or too many soft oils. This link may help you with the iodine numbers and info you need to help you figure out a recipe you will like. http://www.millersoap.com/soapdesign.html

[Mitch23]

Sorry, I guess that would have helped. I can't find the paper with my first recipe, but here is the second one (which is a little better than the first):

Mac. Nut - 15%

Olive - 15%

S. Almond - 10%

Avocado Oil - 5%

Castor - 3%

Evening Primrose - 2%

Great Value Shortening - 18%

Palm Kernel - 15%

Coconut - 12%

Shea Butter - 5%

Hardness-38, Cleansing-18, Conditioning-53, Bubbly-21, Creamy-23, Iodine-60, INS-143; Lauric-13, Myristic-5, Palmitic-14, Stearic-6, Ricinoleic-3, Oleic-42, Linoleic-8, Linolenic-1

[soy327]

Being the newb to soap, I am wondering about the CO don't we need about 20%. I saw your post earlier and have had the same question about that the INS and iodine. Should that many oils be used in one recipe?

Not trying to be bash your recipe it sounds delightful.:yay:as I'm learning too.

[Mitch23]

I thought 15% coconut was the recommended amount. It may be 20. I had used 15 in my first recipe, and it came out softer than this one. Anyways, for this one, I measured that particular one for what I had left at the time.

(And as a side note, I know most people use less oils, but I felt like being complicated at the time. I find measuring everything out fun, crazy I know. I'm sure later on I'll cut the number down...)

[Barbara AL]

Why 10 different oils that is alot of measuring.

I would stick with 6-8 oils. What about just trying these oils in soapcalc and see what you can come up with.

Olive Oil

Avocado Oil

Castor oil

Coconut oil

Palm Kernel

Shea

I will see what I can come up with soapcalc.

Barbara AL

[LuminousBoutique]

This might help:

http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3164

then this:

http://www.millersoap.com/soapdesign.html (scroll down to "Choosing Your Oils - Oil Properties of Fatty Acids ")

So then you have a good idea of what each of the oils you have on hand can give your soaps. They have a list of oils and their properties just below that.

Barbara has you on the right track. More oils doesnt always = better soap. Some of the best soap I've tried has only 4 oils!

this is another version of the chart... http://www.millersoap.com/oilproperties.htm a bit easier for printing/reading.

This of course doesnt make the recipe for you but it gives you a great starting point. You can look right at what you have and instantly know that that oil may give you lather but will provide no conditioning, so on and so forth. Hope this helps!

[IwantItgreen]

Being the newb to soap, I am wondering about the CO don't we need about 20%. I saw your post earlier and have had the same question about that the INS and iodine. Should that many oils be used in one recipe?

Not trying to be bash your recipe it sounds delightful.:yay:as I'm learning too.

About the 20% coconut: In the recipe he has 12% but he also has PKO at 15%. Coconut & PKO are quite similar in soaping qualities. Some people itch when their coconut goes above 10%. I'm one of them. I use 10% Coconut and 15% PKO is all my recipes. I also use tallow which helps with lather as well.

[Scented]

something else to consider is what do you want out of the soap? For instance I wanted lather and more lather and then more lather while not being itchy etc.

Obviously we want soap to clean and our bars to be hard, but what else do you want your soap to do?

[Mitch23]

Mostly I want my soap to last longer than a week, and be moisturizing. I don't really mind terribly if its not super bubbly, but would hope to get some. Don't get me wrong, super bubbly would be amazing, but it's not a big focus for me. Mostly looking for it to last first...

[Scented]

Gotcha. So you don't want a 100% olive oil bar, because that will fall apart and (IMO) can get slimy.

[Scented]

I'll take a stab at this, but keep in mind that I have never used shortening ... lard, yes, but not shortening, so I do not know what properties it lends to the bar. If I could play around though, I might try:

15% coconut

20% PKO

10% shortening

12% shea

23% olive oil (I happen to love Olive oil in soaps, but 25% is the highest I go)

10% castor oil

10% avocado

and adjust numbers around to see what it gives. However, I would also soap this with a lower lye number than what it will give you too.

[LuminousBoutique]

I have to beg to differ just for a sec on the olive oil bar.... Just saying I've been making 100% olive oil bars for 20+ years with my grandma (that and lard is all she ever used) and they are still my favorite bars... I have one in my shower thats been in there for two months- only half gone, another at the sink I wash my face with every night- 2 months old there too, only half gone.

They can get slimy if they are kept in standing water but not any more than any other soap, imo. The thing is, I cure my castile 6 months so its hard as a rock before I use it- so for a long lasting bar thats needed.

For a long lasting bar of ANY oils/soap.. a nice long cure will help For my skin, there is nothing more moisturizing than a 100% OO bar with a 7% superfat, water discount, and 6 month cure.. but everyones skin is different so it really, truly is, trial and error.

[TallTayl]

LuminousBoutique - I have to agree with you. A well made and well cured castile is a true delight. Use a net pouf with it and it becomes glorious. I have some in my shower aged for a little over a year that are still rock hard after many uses.

I'm also a fan of a goat milk castile.

Back to the OP for a second, with that many variables in your formula (high number of oils) it will be difficult to tell which oils you like and what they each bring to the party.

I'd be inclined to save the evening primrose for lotions. Same with Mac. and sweet almond. I'm a big fan of avocado in CP along with Olive and a bit of castor. I used to use castor at 10%, but noticed no difference in lather quality when I bumped it down to 5%.

The biggest lesson I ever forced myself to learn was what each oil does independently in soap. I made small (16 oz oil) batches of single oil soaps to see for myself how I liked them. Then I found what I loved and began to combine them. I am in love with my present formula.

[Scented]

Then perhaps I have not had a well made bar because the ones I tried fell apart.

[TallTayl]

@scented: for such a 'simple' bar, Castile is a complicated beast. The biggest problem I've had was with adulterated olive oil. That'll kill anyone's love for Castile quickly!

The tricks of the trade I've picked up make it a joy to soap and use. For instance, water discounted lye solution (I like 40%) and HOT lye solution into warm oil makes a big difference to me. The most important (besides using true, unadulterated olive oil) is curing time. There's no shortcut for that.

[chuck_35550]

What about:

Sweet Almond Oil: 5%

Avocado Oil: 5%

Castor Oil: 5%

Coconut Oil: 20%

Evening Primrose: 2%

Macadamia: 5%

Olive Oil: 15%

PKO: 5%

Shea Butter: 5%

GV Shortening: 33%

Iodine: 55 INS: 153 and the other numbers look ok to me. You might want to go to a 35% lye concentration and cpop it or insulate it real good for a full gel. Milk is going to accelerate saponification but should never be heated or insulated IMHO. See what you think. HTH

Steve

[chuck_35550]

I'm curious about the Castile discussion. Would pomace be a best oil or are you describing an organic type of extra virgin oo? I've never made any type of 100% oil soap. Oh and Scented, you know if Top were to jump in what he would say about shortening? I like it in small doses for the soy oil. These are the oils that are on hand so that's what I stuck with but it would be nicer with a little palm or tallow.

Thanks,

Steve

Edited February 14, 2011 by chuck_35550

[TallTayl]

I love the pomace from Columbus Foods for castile.

Initially I found a pomace at a very good price (read dirt cheap) from a local market. the result was terrible (DOS turning to total oxidation, Squishy texture, Slimy lather) leading me to detest castile. Come to find out it was adulterated with 90% canola!

After some internal debate I decided to give it a go with the CF pomace and the rest is history. Unless you're going for a stark white castile like what you would expect from EVOO, pomace is a great alternative. The ones I make with pomace are a bit more ivory.

HTH

[IwantItgreen]

What TallTayl said. I do the same. Columbus Pomace with a 25% water to oil ratio(30% lye concentration). I just made this on Sat. weighted my pomace, mixed the water and lye well until dissolved, added to oils when hot, hit with stick blender off and on for about 5 min. until light trace, then poured into PVC. Wrapped the PVC with towel and unmolded and cut today. Nice round ivory bars of Castile. I don't color or scent my castile as I save it for those with sensitive skin.

Then hide/forget about them for at least 6 months!

Edited February 14, 2011 by IwantItgreen

[chuck_35550]

I really like pomace too. I'll have to give your advice a whirl.

Thanks

Steve

[LuminousBoutique]

Personally I use EVOO, but only because I can get it locally, cheaper than the pomace from CF/SC.

[Stella1952]

The biggest lesson I ever forced myself to learn was what each oil does independently in soap. I made small (16 oz oil) batches of single oil soaps to see for myself how I liked them.

Good thread. I think I'm concentrating too hard on the INS number... I'm on my third batch of soap and am thinking that your approach may save me a lot of time and consternation, at least by testing the "basic" oils and fats commonly used (ie. OO, palm, coconut, canola, lard, etc.). I'm having a blast though. I have yet to try CPHP but I can feel it comng 'cause this waiting a month stuff is driving me batty. I only last a week before I have to try a scrap... so far, none of my skin has fallen off, reddened or appeared to be chemically burned, so that's very encouraging. I have a few guinea pigs out in the world who are giving me rave reviews on Batch #1 (only 1 month old!) so it's time to unleash the 2 new batches on them... I need to make new hiding places for my soap...

[TallTayl]

@Stella1952 - Soap Making is not unlike candle making. Too many variables all at once make it very difficult to figure out what's working/not working for you.

WRT waiting to try a sliver of soap - as long as the batch has gelled I've been known to take a sliver to testfter a week or two. Again - like candle making - the soap changes over time, usually for the better.

@LuminousBoutique - I used to use EVOO brands available at my local stores until I began to experience horrible oxidation (well beyond DOS) from brands like Crapetelli and Bertolli. The texture of the soap was not anything like a good castile should be. I hate paying OO prices for blends adulterated with canola or soy.

[chuck_35550]

Stella, you really need to buy "Scientific Soapmaking" by Dunn. This is his method of using test batches in single oil and then multiple oil soaps. I ususally grab a bar after a week and then try another one from that batch in a month or so to see the difference in quality. I used to have a local supply of pomace and it was great; now I use evoo. Even if the bottle says 100% pure olive it may not be?

Steve

Edited February 15, 2011 by chuck_35550