An Interesting Story....

[bart70]

Was at a local market recently and stopped by a candlemakers stand. After a couple of minutes the lady on the stand started talking abut her candles. I gave no suggestions that we also made candles (we sell predominantly into retail outlets outside the area hence she did not know me).

The candles were mostly crystal palm wax it what look like starburst and feather, Got the usual talk about the different patterns and how it is a characteristic of the wax that makes them.

I picked one up to smell the bottom (as I usually do as the fragrance is a little stronger on the 'bottomed surface). I immediately noticed that many were not 'bottomed' at all - each to their own as this does not worry me if people choose not to finish in this way.

What struck me was her comments when I did this. She told me that smelling the bottoms is a story fabricated by people who do not mix fragrance into all their wax, and the fragrance sinks to the bottom - hence they like you to smell the bottom of the candle. She also commented that most candlemakers only fragrance the wax on the outside of the candle and the wax in the centre is unfragranced

I just smiled and nodded (was not going to get into a debate on how or why)., but the following 2 points came to mind.

Firstly - pillars are moulded upside down....So any fragrance falling to the bottom would actually be in the top of the candle....Wouldn't it?

Secondly, how would it be possible to pour a pillar so that you poured fragranced wax around the outside (remembering these are crystal palm with a pattern) and non fragrance wax in the centre?

I am unable to see how her comments were legitimate - happy to accept it may be possible. Can anybody elaborate?

Thoughts?

Bart70

[Jenny]

I have heard of people dipping a pillar candle into a colored wax, and the inside is still white, but who knows.

[Desertrose]

Sounds like she doesn't have a clue and was just waffling on "trying' to sound like she knew what she was talking about.

Unless you only rubbed the sides of the finished pillar with oils to give it the illusion that it's scented it's impossible to not scent it throughout or have only the bottom scented.

You should have asked her how it's possible to only scent "parts" of candles. We'd all save a lot of money if we knew how to do that (joking!)

[Judy, USMC]

Of what little I know about pillars ... I agree that it's hard to imagine how to do it with a pillar.

I've seen container candles where unscented votives were centered in a shallow container and then the container overpoured with scented wax. Can something similar be done with a pillar?

[Candybee]

She may have been referring to an overpour for the pillars. Yes you can do overpours or dip them. I suppose a real cheapskate could spritz the outside of the candle with FO too so that you have a strong outer layer of scent.

Sounds very unprofessional to sell an unfinished candle. I know I struggled with trying to get the technique just right to have smoothe candle bottoms.

If the bottoms weren't finished did she have warning labels on them?

[Scented]

Actually she probably is referring the Chinese/Taiwain imports at WalMart, even though those aren't typically palm/feather wax. It can and is done where the outside is fragrance and granulated wax fills the rest of the pillar in the standard $2 for the 3x6 pillars that morph when burned.

BUT the rest of what she said is hokey pokey.

And poor her, because MOST chandlers don't do that stuff if they're handcrafting.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Scented

[bart70]

Thanks for the responses.

Was aware of dipped candles - we have a couple of local stores who sell them but they are unfragranced - the dipping is used to provide a visual effect on the surface. Would be hard to dip in crystal wax and still get the pattern I would think? If it was possible I guess dodgy makers could load up a batch of highly scented wax and dip them. Have not seen this before but i guess it is possible.

Some of her candles had '2nd pours' that were very obvious (non crystalised wax an inch down the candle sides where it has run between the contracted pillar and the side of the mold). They did not look very professional in this regard. Those who have used crystal waxes will know how different the plain wax looks to when it is crystalised.

Others were just plain unbottomed at all - with a crystal pattern, indents, void holes etc in the bottoms.

All were wrapped in cellophane with a very tiny warning label on the bottom ( I have good eyesight and it took me a minute or two to work out what it said).

I checked their website and noticed a section where you can pick any fragrance. color, and size combination and they will make it. Makes me also wonder how well it would be tested?

She is the only person in the area selling palm candles at the markets so I guess she has no competition. In saying that, even if I were interested in the market scene I would not be able to sell at her prices so I guess people are getting what they are paying for in the end.

Bart70

[Gbhunter]

Funny that you would mention this story. I was at a antique market with my wife and there was a stand selling soy scented jar candles. All the people around the candles were coohing and awwwwing at how great the scent was. I picked one up and it smelled like pure scent that is still in the bottle. I thought to myself "how could they possibly get this strong a scent into this wax"... Each candle was about $6 and in like a 9 oz jar. People were getting these candles like they were food and they starving. I figured "well lets see how it burns?" so I bought one (the person making the candles was not there as this was an unmanned booth).

Well we got the candle home, and no more than 5 min after I lit it the wick mushroomed like an a-bomb. Since then its been nothing more than cutting one shroom after another. If I leave it balooned the flame will grow dim and the flame looks like its about to go out.

Another thing that got on my nerves is the cashier that was manning the register at this market(more like a collection of unmanned booths). As we were purchasing the candle he said "well, since they are made out of soy you know they are healthier for you!" I'm thinking...are we going to eat these or something? As it stands in its current form if I blow this particular candle out with one of these "shrooms" attached to the wick, the thing smokes for 5 min during which the mushroomed wick shoots off red ambers out of the jar.

Yay for quality:yay:

But almost all the candles were gone, people were getting 3-8 at a time!

Makes me sad:sad2:. I could make candles like this with my eyes closed.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Gbhunter

[RichardLOZ]

Yes it takes all types doesnt it. Now if you can work out how to do the pillars so that just portions of the wax are scented, maybe you could let us all in on the secret as I am sure that we could save a fortune on our oils

The things we get is usually with other "local" chandlers who do jars. I was spraking with a couple of them at one market here in the Mountains and was quite interested in their responses.

How long do your small apothecary jars burn for? (now this is a 10 oz jar) She looked me straight and said, ohh around 80 hours. Now please correct me if I am wrong, but there is just not enough waz in the jar to be able to go for that length of time. If hers do, I would love to know the secret as if I could do that surely I would be providing way better value!

I asked the other person at that same market, who happed to have a few 16 oz apothecary jars for sale how long do they burn for. I received a blank stare and was told, "quite a long time". Now this person knew that I made candles, but nothing about my business as I was introduced to her through another person. I asked her why didnt she get the burn time of the candle when it was being tested, only to be told that "I dont test as I dont have the time for that". Hmmmm, I just nodded and walked away after that.

Its people like that who give us small home based businesses a bad reputation, as nost people once they buy a dud, will not take the chance again. Such is life I guess, it takes all types......

[kandlekrazy]

Some people just don't care about how the candle they purchase burns as long as it's cheap.

I purchased 1 candle at Walmart prior to making candles, 16 oz jar, and it burned only on 1 side of the jar. The smell was awesome but I never purchased another because about a quarter of the wax never burned. The wick appeared to be perfectly centered on top, but didn't pay much attention after it started to burn. I see people scooping up these poorly made candles every time I'm in Walmart. I even asked one lady if she found the same problem I did and she said "oh yes, but they smell good so I don't care".

The average consumer is not educated about burn time, even burns, or mushrooms...all they care about is the way it looks when purchased and the scent.

When I start getting a ton of questions, my radar tells me it's another chandler and while I'm not the type to mess with people, I know others that will lie just to get a reaction. Then they come to this and other boards to see what people post about them and laugh about it. Bad business, but it happens.

[EricofAZ]

After reading this thread, and others, I am convinced that chandlers need some certification. This is one business that anyone can do in their home and not do it right.

Some won't do it right because they don't want to. Others because they don't know how. I think the first few months I was attempting to make candles, I had no idea what the requirements or industry standards were. There is no book that lays it out that I found. The ones they sell at Michaels or on Amazon are light fluffy things and nothing serious about wicking or wax selection or container selection or anything else.

I learned more on this forum than in any book and I'm pretty sure that others are in the same boat.

[Jenny]

Actually she probably is referring the Chinese/Taiwain imports at WalMart, even though those aren't typically palm/feather wax. It can and is done where the outside is fragrance and granulated wax fills the rest of the pillar in the standard $2 for the 3x6 pillars that morph when burned.

BUT the rest of what she said is hokey pokey.

And poor her, because MOST chandlers don't do that stuff if they're handcrafting.

I'm going to have to start using the phrase, "that's hokey pokey." I like it!

[IwantItgreen]

After reading this thread, and others, I am convinced that chandlers need some certification. This is one business that anyone can do in their home and not do it right.

Some won't do it right because they don't want to. Others because they don't know how. I think the first few months I was attempting to make candles, I had no idea what the requirements or industry standards were.

I agree! I know a person who found out that I made candles (I was visiting my niece) so about 8 weeks later I see her again and she whips out of her purse a bunch of candle sniffies. SHE'S ALREADY SELLING! I asked her how long she had been making them, and she replied "Since I seen you were making them. I figured if you could do it, I could too." Ok. So I asked her what wax she was using. She didn't remember, it was a soy wax. When I asked her what wick she was using she said "I don't know, it comes on a roll from Candle Science."!!! I asked her one more question, "So what jar did you go with?" She replied, "Oh, I get them from other people, Goodwill, where ever I can find them." I cannot imagine what other people are thinking of her candles. My niece told me that they've been to a number of craft fairs this fall and she's doing good selling these. I didn't instruct her about the standard of candle making, because my first gut instinct told me that she's shooting herself in her foot and won't be around long. I honestly don't think she's the type to take the time to do meticulous testing. Ok, I feel better now. Sorry for the rant and hi-jack

[Candybee]

After reading this thread, and others, I am convinced that chandlers need some certification. This is one business that anyone can do in their home and not do it right.

The last thing we need is to be forced to go thru a certification process set up by the government.

It always seems like a good idea in theory until you get a bunch of government beaurocrats making up the guidelines and fees for certification. Oh yes there will be fees to pay for the gov't employees that do the certification. There is also no guarantee that the gov't heads that put it together would be experts in the field of candlemaking let alone looking out for the small business man or woman. It would be a nightmare! Please no enforced certification.

This is exactly what is going on in the B&B side right now. Bunch of gov't beaurocrats are trying to pass legislation that will force B&B companies to pay hefty fees and go thru certification to sell their products and it is written so poorly that no small B&B owner will benefit-- but the big guys with the deep pockets surely will while they run all of us out of biz overnight if the legislation passes.

We definitely don't want this for candlemaking.

[Wessex]

A good idea might be a professional organization of some type for small business chandlers. Some sort of certification program involving learning candle safety, best practices, etc. But of course that could be opening up a can of worms that could spiral somewhere we don't want it to go. I did archaeology for many years before getting called back into the military for Iraq and Afghanistan. There is a Registry of Professional Archaeologists and a Society of Professional Archaeologist that have certain requirements to be a member. But membership does not make one a good archaeologist, and inversely, there are many great archaeologists that are not members.

Sorry to go on a tangent.

Cheers,

Steve

[Candybee]

There are professional candle organizations you can join; The National Candle Association and The International Guild of Candlemakers. Both are dedicated to responsible candlemaking and safety.

I've been a member of the IGA for years but got nothing out of them. There was a thread in the biz section re IGA membership and the lack of real benefits for the candlemaker. But the membership is reasonable and you get to use their name as a member not that it helps much.

Then there is the NCA. But if you want to be a member be prepared to cough up a hefty membership fee. I am not a member as the fee is so high it is prohibitive for people like me and many small business candlemakers. You will see members listed like Yankee Candle as they have the deeper pockets. I often wonder if these big company members set the standard for candlemaking inasmuch as 'little' people don't have the money to be members we effectively don't have the voice.

[Wessex]

I had done research on the NCA and IGCA a while back. NCA does seem to be just for big business like you said. And the IGCA has no standards for membership, anyone can join. I was thinking more along the lines of an organization where one would have to meet certain criteria for joining, such as completing some type of safety courses, ethics courses, knowledge courses, etc. It would be a pain to actually do anything along these lines, but one can dream, LOL.

Cheers,

Steve

[Regeth]

This is a interesting topic. I just got into candle making about 2 or so months ago.. I did take the time to test burn different wicks, jars, and waxes to get a good burning candle. It's been a trying road. But I also work in the IT field, and have a few certs. I think the idea of a organization that is setup to standardized the candle making process just for small home based business is some what a good idea. Look at CompTIA, they certify people in non-vender specific fields. Computer Technician, Network, Service…etc… Their tests are done at local certified testing centers.

My question is, how would you certify someone’s candle? Would just a simple multiple choice test be good enough. Then after you answer all of that, would it really be worth it?

[Candybee]

This is all well and good as long as it does not become mandatory and requires a gov't agency to enforce rules and regs and of course fees.

Getting a certification should be something you do voluntarily and hopefully does not turn into the type of certification you might get from places like the BBB where to get a good grade you simply pay for it.:rolleyes2