topofmurrayhill Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 It's the science I'm talking about. And the science says it takes a certain amount of time for fat molecules, no matter what fat it is, to connect with lye molecules to make the chains.It's the science you have wrong. The more saturated the fatty acids involved, the faster and more permanently they saponify. The recipes many people make with a lot of linoleic acid are particularly slow to cure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcrafter Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 ooooooookay. I'm not going to get into some debate or beat my head against anyone's wall. Everyone can find their own answer that they want by experimenting with using cp soap at various time frames, ie....soap up at one week, two weeks, three weeks, and so on, and finding what works best for them.see ya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeana Posted March 29, 2009 Author Share Posted March 29, 2009 Now everyone does agree that it is between 4-6 wks for soap to be cured, right? I've been doing this for a while now, I'm not new, but I haven't had to work with time frames before. I have some soaps that are 4 wks old now that I could make finger impressions on if I squeezed them hard enough. I would have to squeeze very hard, but with older soaps you couldn't leave any impressions by squeezing them. Also, as a few of you have said, curing isn't only about hardness, but how well the lye and fats have combined. I'm curious what you all use as an indicator that your soap is fully cured? What type of test tells you they are ready to sell for certain? Top, I am going to try to go with lower linoleic acid numbers to see if this helps. Can you recommend a good range? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire and Ice Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 The CandlePastor said:I disagree with less water=faster cure. I do not think that using less water automatically speeds up cure. The benefit of using less water is that you will have less water in your end soap, which makes a harder bar faster, so you can cut it faster. But letting a CP (no matter how you make it) and HP cure for at least 4 weeks before selling is optimal. The soap get milder, will last longer in the rub, and will make customers happy. After you start getting busier and start getting a feel for what soaps are the best sellers, make them in advance in preparation, or make larger/multiple batches at a time so they can get their full cure and you can still have your stock on hand (rather than waiting and then rushing to get them cured:cheesy2:.)I agree with you. It really is best to plan your batches well ahead of a show or a wholesale account.I done some water discounting and yes it makes a harder bar faster but I still give it, at the very least, four full weeks to cure prior to testing it and giving it out. The longer a soap cures, the better it is.There are also many instances where it's not a good idea to do a deep water discount, such as milk soaps, florals and spicy scents. I also can do a deep discount on a castile but I wouldn't want to hand it out before four months of good cure time. I cure my soaps in top of my kitchen cabinets. The reason why is because I use wood burners for winter heating and hot air rises to the ceiling level. The closer I can get the soap to the hoter, drier air, the quicker they lose some of the water. Better planning and a larger mold seems the best way to go. If you take an inventory often, you know what sells well and how often to make in order to keep the stock in good shape, reguardless of who is buying tons of one fragrance or recipe. Lots of professonals keep as many as 300+ bars available of each scent, at any given time. When they fallow below 300 bars, it time to make another large batch of that soap so that it fully cured by the time they need to add it to their outgoing stock. No, I don't sell yet but I still know what soaps are moving the best for me and when I need to make a new batch. I get down to twenty five bars, it's time to make that soap again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefly Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I know this doesn't answer your question but when I'm in a big hurry (ie. I have a bunch of market or a lot of orders to fill) I use M&P instead since it's quick. I've always done both M&P and CP so it's worked for me. Unless your customers specifically want a CP soap then water discount is the only thing I've heard of to speed up time.The one time I tried discounting water was from a company that sold molds and this person swore by her method. I tried it and did the phenophthalene test on it and it took the same amount of time to cure that non discounting water soaps do. Sometimes I do the tongue method to taste soaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck_35550 Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 You just can't have your cake and eat it too. Most soapers go for heavy superfat percentages to increase the emollient effects of the soap. You know those are percentages of oils that are not saponified and result in a softer bar that is going to stay soft. I superfat at 7% and use a 2:1 lye solution without a gel on my milk soaps and shampoo bars. I use soap after 24 hours and know my recipes in my sleep. No lye pockets or surprises to harm my skin and no problem with the density of the soap. I give it a couple of weeks before selling and warn customers that this particular type of soap will not last for 6 months. My hunters/gardners soaps and salt bars are thoroughly gelled and are hard as bricks but they are not superfatted and they are not touted to make your dry skin go away. They all clean without drying and I seriously doubt you could tell the diff between a bar 2 weeks old and 2 months old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CareBear Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 sure you can. my 20% superfat coconut oil soaps will go through a windshield, and you should try my 10-15% coconut oil/palm oil soaps... brick hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarieJeanette Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 You just can't have your cake and eat it too. Most soapers go for heavy superfat percentages to increase the emollient effects of the soap. You know those are percentages of oils that are not saponified and result in a softer bar that is going to stay soft. Like Carebear says, "Sure you can", in regards to having your cake and eating it, too. My 100% coconut oil bars with a 20% s/f are hard as bricks, just like Carebear's. They are not salt bars either. They are just CO, water, lye and F/O and they are hard as bricks within only hours of making them. If I don't unmold and cut them within 6 hours after pour I think I would need a bandsaw to cut them with. I still let them cure for 4 weeks, though.MarieJeanette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcrafter Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Have your cake and eat it too. That made me laugh because my Grandma used to call bars of soap "cakes of soap." So I got this picture of eating a cake of soap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jcandleattic Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 You just can't have your cake and eat it too. Most soapers go for heavy superfat percentages to increase the emollient effects of the soap. You know those are percentages of oils that are not saponified and result in a softer bar that is going to stay soft. I superfat at 7% and use a 2:1 lye solution without a gel on my milk soaps and shampoo bars. I use soap after 24 hours and know my recipes in my sleep. No lye pockets or surprises to harm my skin and no problem with the density of the soap. I give it a couple of weeks before selling and warn customers that this particular type of soap will not last for 6 months. My hunters/gardners soaps and salt bars are thoroughly gelled and are hard as bricks but they are not superfatted and they are not touted to make your dry skin go away. They all clean without drying and I seriously doubt you could tell the diff between a bar 2 weeks old and 2 months old.My soap you absolutely can tell a difference between a 2 week old bar and a 2 month old bar and even a 2 month old bar from a 6 month old bar... If there isn't a difference then I know I must have done something very wrong for the harshness not to go away after that long. And after a full cure the only way you can tell the difference in my gelled soaps from my ungelled soaps is the color - otherwise they are exactly the same in hardness and cleansing quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CareBear Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 I can tell the difference between a 2 week and a 2 month bar of MY soap. Maybe yours are different - there are so many variables and so many options. Mine is not really a harshness/gentleness thing but certainly shows up in how long a bar lasts in the shower (even my rock-hard, high SF bars). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck_35550 Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Well yes, you're talking coconut and palm. Those are hard oils on their own and yes you can tell the diff in hardness, as far as the water has evaporated out of the bar; but mixing different oils for different outcomes means you have to understand the fundamental properties of those oils. How about pure olive for castille? It never hardens or really cures out...there's that word again. We all agree that soap is gonna be basically ok to use within a short period of time if the formula is sound and you obeyed the fundamental rules of soap making. I have some old bars that last in the shower but aren't any more mild or drying than a younger bar of soap. Whew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcrafter Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 My olive oil soap gets hard as a rock. It takes time and no 6 months, either. I'm talking 6 weeks to 2 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CareBear Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 How about pure olive for castille? It never hardens or really cures out...there's that word again.gosh, I know I seem almost combative, but my castile bars (100% olive oil, or 90% olive/10% castor) are indeed rock hard and cure out. I recommend waiting 2 months to use them, or longer.If I start with a 27% lye solution it takes forever to harden but with my 40% solution I have trouble cutting them the next day. We all agree that soap is gonna be basically ok to use within a short period of time if the formula is sound and you obeyed the fundamental rules of soap making. I do agree with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louise Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 My olive castile bars get rock hard too. I've never heard of one not getting rock hard.But I think we all agree that the more cure time on a bar, the nicer it will be on your skin. I usually don't let anything go that is less than 6 - 8 wks old. And I certainly wouldn't wrap them before then either. Some people will see some on my rack and beg, but I just tell them, if it's not wrapped, it's not ready to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jcandleattic Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Well yes, you're talking coconut and palm. How about pure olive for castille? It never hardens or really cures out...That's not true - I dont' use Palm oil AT ALL, and only up to 15% CO unless I'm making a salt bar or a mariner bar. As for a castille 100% Olive Oil bar - after a full cure (and I do mean a FULL cure of what I consider at least 8 weeks for castille) it is hard as a rock and could break a window if I was so inclined to throw it at one. LOL I agree with CareBear though. I CAN tell a difference in harshness and mildness and how long MY soaps last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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