Organic candles?

[Stella1952]

We've wandered way off topic in this thread, which began about organic soy wax candles. I am not aware of any of the bigger soy wax manufacturers that even imply that their wax is manufactured and produced under organic standards, although some are certified as kosher.

One can research old Golden Brands (username: Golden Brands) threads here where Jason, sales rep extrordinaire , has answered questions and helped folks. Tim from NatureWax (username: Tim NatureWax) also popped in a few months ago to discuss some questions about the meaning of "100% soy" in NatureWax marketing and product descriptions. Their company no longer markets its waxes as "soy" - their wording has changed to vegetable wax, although many suppliers have not picked up on this change in wording and are still using the same "100% soy" wording on their product descriptions. The threads in which these helpful reps have participated can be found by using the search tool in the blue stripe above (between New Posts and QuickLinks) and then clicking on Advanced Search, then Search by username.

The bottom line is to research questions by contacting manufacturers and by searching other reliable sources for independent verification and discussion. HTH

[topofmurrayhill]

I figured you would respond to this. Did I hit a nerve? There is not need for claws to come out.

There is no nerve and there are no claws. This is a candlemaking forum and I am responding in the context of petroleum-derived candlemaking materials. None of those materials (such as paraffin) have any similarity to estrogen in structure, nor any hormonal effect on the body, individualized or otherwise. It's not a controversy or a debate. You are simply wrong.

I believe everyone has an unalienable right to hold any opinion they want to. I also believe bullsh*t should be clearly marked so that nobody accidentally steps in it.

[greensoaper]

We've wandered way off topic in this thread, which began about organic soy wax candles. I am not aware of any of the bigger soy wax manufacturers that even imply that their wax is manufactured and produced under organic standards, although some are certified as kosher.

Actually, the OP never mentioned the word soy. Just today I received a sample of certified organic candle wax that I will begin testing shortly. The manufacturer will not divulge what waxes are in the blend just that it is certified organic under the NOP (which is an accredited certification agent) and that it is a veggie blend with the exception of CO domestic beeswax to harden it up.

So, since there is a CO candle wax on the market, can we agree that it is possible to produce a candle that can be rightfully called organic?

[Stella1952]

The manufacturer will not divulge what waxes are in the blend just that it is certified organic under the NOP

I don't want to know their secret recipe, but I do want to know what is in it. I don't approve of other wax manufacturers refusing to tell people what's in their wax and I certainly do not approve of a manufacturer of so-called CO wax refusing to be forthcoming about their ingredients either. I think as a candle manufacturer and consumer, I have a right to know what is in the candle I am burning and selling to others. What's the big secret?

So, since there is a CO candle wax on the market, can we agree that it is possible to produce a candle that can be rightfully called organic?

If the wick is made from organically grown and processed materials and the essential oils are from organically grown plants/flowers and extracted by processes other than chemical extraction, and blended with organic carrier oils, also extracted by organic methods, then perhaps... But without knowing what is in the wax, maybe some folks would be content to call it organic, but I would not. I think it would be accurate and fair to say it "contains some CO materials" because that's honestly ALL you can say about it... I do not go along with the concept that you can hawk something as "organic" or "CO" when the entire content is not. It is misleading.

[AAngels]

Hello Again,

I got some info. back from two places about this discussion here.

I wrote in to Lone Star about the 100% made from soybeans and this is what they said; "The C-3 is 100% soy.

I wrote in to Iowa Soybeans Asso. and they said; "The wax can be 100% but it also cannot be 100% soy candle because there are stabilizers and fragrances and dyes in the candle----But it is very high and closer than you will get with any other products."

So I know that there will be different opinions on this. So to me it is until you add something to it. But all in all, like I mentioned in one of my posts, I always tell clients, it is as natural as natural can be.

Thanks

Kathy

[greensoaper]

I think it would be accurate and fair to say it "contains some CO materials" because that's honestly ALL you can say about it... I do not go along with the concept that you can hawk something as "organic" or "CO" when the entire content is not. It is misleading.

Kinda like selling a "soy" candle that contains paraffin, but still calling it a soy candle? A bit like splitting hairs, eh?

I'm not asking if you would call it organic. I'm asking that people stop saying that organic candles (or other such products) can't or don't exist. That's it.

[Stella1952]

You have not stated anything that would refute or answer the questions raised. Until I see proof otherwise, the organic candle emperor has no clothes. IMHO

[topofmurrayhill]

I'm not asking if you would call it organic. I'm asking that people stop saying that organic candles (or other such products) can't or don't exist. That's it.

I can answer this question completely and definitively.

Organic candles can't and don't exist. For a candle to be organic it would have to be edible. Since there's always some portion of a candle that isn't edible, at least the wick, candles are never food and can't be organic.

The term organic does not apply in any way, shape or form to non-food items, so anybody saying that a candle is organic is misusing the term and making up their own definition. If they can do that, then so can I and hence any candle can subjectively be called organic.

The most you can say about a candle is that it uses an organic foodstuff or food ingredient as its fuel. Most likely a non-hydrogenated organic oil, and if that oil resembles a wax in terms of being saturated enough to be solid at room temperature, you could say it's being used as candle wax. There may be items you could buy at the store right now that would fit that description, and foods could even be specially blended to perform better as candle wax.

You might think you're using a strict definition if you say an organic candle is a candle that uses non-hydrogenated solid organic oils for its fuel. I agree it's a good try, but an organic candle is still a made-up concept and your definition is still just your own. For instance, people might disagree as to whether it's still an organic candle if you add fragrance and/or dye, perhaps arguing that those non-organic ingredients serve special purposes just as the wick and container do. There would be no way to resolve that dispute because everyone is still free to make up their own definition.

So there's the answer. If you want to argue it beyond that, you will be welcomed into the ranks of those who argued how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

[CareBear]

you will be welcomed into the ranks of those who argued how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

oooh ooh ***raises hand*** I know that one! two! or three maybe!

[kimmeroo]

I can answer this question completely and definitively.

Organic candles can't and don't exist. For a candle to be organic it would have to be edible. Since there's always some portion of a candle that isn't edible, at least the wick, candles are never food and can't be organic.

The term organic does not apply in any way, shape or form to non-food items, so anybody saying that a candle is organic is misusing the term and making up their own definition. If they can do that, then so can I and hence any candle can subjectively be called organic.

The most you can say about a candle is that it uses an organic foodstuff or food ingredient as its fuel. Most likely a non-hydrogenated organic oil, and if that oil resembles a wax in terms of being saturated enough to be solid at room temperature, you could say it's being used as candle wax. There may be items you could buy at the store right now that would fit that description, and foods could even be specially blended to perform better as candle wax.

You might think you're using a strict definition if you say an organic candle is a candle that uses non-hydrogenated solid organic oils for its fuel. I agree it's a good try, but an organic candle is still a made-up concept and your definition is still just your own. For instance, people might disagree as to whether it's still an organic candle if you add fragrance and/or dye, perhaps arguing that those non-organic ingredients serve special purposes just as the wick and container do. There would be no way to resolve that dispute because everyone is still free to make up their own definition.

So there's the answer. If you want to argue it beyond that, you will be welcomed into the ranks of those who argued how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Well said Top! I agree..if you can't eat it...it isn't ORGANIC!:highfive:

Kimmeroo

[Wendy Shoofitz]

There is no nerve and there are no claws. This is a candlemaking forum and I am responding in the context of petroleum-derived candlemaking materials. None of those materials (such as paraffin) have any similarity to estrogen in structure, nor any hormonal effect on the body, individualized or otherwise. It's not a controversy or a debate. You are simply wrong.

I believe everyone has an unalienable right to hold any opinion they want to. I also believe bullsh*t should be clearly marked so that nobody accidentally steps in it.

I am laughing so hard my stomach hurts. What a great way to start the day. Thank you.

Your last statement can also answer green soaper since she is so bound and determined to produce a non organic, organic candle. Sheesh.

[Waxmaster]

You most certainly can. Even the Ministry of Soybean Propaganda agrees you can call it a soy candle. There's no official definition of what soy wax is, but obviously it should have a high proportion of soy in it. Personally I'd go with a 70/30 blend. With that sort of wax, one of the soybean growers' associations will actually certify your product as a genuine soy candle.

and which association are you talking about?

[topofmurrayhill]

and which association are you talking about?

The Iowa Soybean Propaganda Board

a.k.a. Iowa Soybean Association

[Debra Phelps]

I feel like the candlemakers are hurting each other. Parrifin and soy users (some) seem to want to bad mouth the other. So what the customers are hearing, is that all candles are bad. I think some day they will quit buying them, because of all the bad the hear.

[Stella1952]

Nah, people will always buy candles. I do agree that chandlers who use different waxes should concentrate on the virtues of their candles and leave the bad-mouthing by the curb. Every kind of wax I have used has had pluses and minuses. There's no reason to exaggerate or diminish another wax. Just state accurate facts and everything will be fine.

[athena143]

Hello all, I'm new to this board, and what is the first thread I read, you got it, the discussion on organic candles....

My family comes from a long line of crop farmers, which includes soybeans....gmo seeds have helped our family stave off starvation, that being said has anyone every seen a soybean? There have been many attempts by my friends and I to make our own wax, impossible, it is an ecky greenish brown goo. To have a wax suitable for candles,it needs to be refined and additives added. (I have friends with a stone mill, soybeans won't even make a good bread with out additives)

That being said, if you want to get technical, bees pollinate the soybeans, and who knows where they have been, but you can be sure they have just introduced nonorganic's to the plant.

[cindym]

This topic comes up time and time again. Let's face fact folks, no candle can possibly be organic. Not only are you using color, wicks,containers,fo's etc. it all adds up to one thing to me. Non organic.

That said, I love a great smelling hand poured candle be it soy, parasoy, or made of the sand in the back yard LOL. We who make candles by hand are creating a candle that hopefully smells great, looks good, burns well etc..... misinformation prevails in all industries. But we are creators, we love what we do. We offer a product that we are proud of. So what we fussin about. Choose you wax, and make a great candle.

[kandlekrazy]

I questioned a vendor at our street fair because their sign said Organic candles and they told me because their soy wax was organic and the soy made up 90-98% of the candle (no dye was used) they could "legally" call it organic. These were their words, not mine. I'd really hesitate to state it was an organic candle, but might state that organic wax was used if it truly is certified organic.

[CalaisDesigns]

Green Soaper, do you have the name of the CO soy wax? I am looking for some to add to my kid's bath soap markers and would love it to be CO!!

[Circle]

Stella, do you know of any source of vegetable wax that is made from organic crop (the wax doesn't have to be, I don't care for the marketing aspect, but I do care if the crop was grown in a least harmful way for this planet), or at least not genetically modified? As I mentioned in my post above, I suspect Ecosoya could be using gmo crop, but I am waiting for them to confirm that. I will post when / if I hear from them. Does anyone know about some wax from eco-friendly farmed crops?

Why are you so concerned about gmo wax? You are not eating it so why worry if it is genetically modified? How many people eat seedless grapes for example and this is food? Don't you think they are genetically modified, since when has a grape not had seeds as a natural thing??

[Circle]

From what I understand, the soybean industry almost universally uses "Roundup-Ready" seed, which is genetically modified to resist the herbicide they spray on the soy crop to kill weeds. Anyone growing organic soybeans is just riding on the coat-tails of Corporate America. Why even support that? We'd be better off if they were growing something unprocessed and healthful that you could buy in the produce section.

Americans aren't the world's biggest appreciators of real food. They're easily manipulated by Agribusiness $$$ to consume whatever crap -- I mean crop -- is currently feeding the factories, running down the conveyor belts or popping out of the extruders or gushing into storage tanks.

Soybeans have no more to do with ecology than does Wonder Bread or Cheerios. Is Crisco oil some kind of "green" product, or the stuff they dunk french fries into at the local fast food joint? Frankly, anyone who thinks they're making a green candle is some kind of propaganda-addled zombie, unless maybe they specialize in beeswax or bayberry.

It is all about the money and the power. This is proven in the high statistics of obesity, cancer, death etc which was not around 100 years ago when things were plain and simple. A simple example is the quote "98% fat free" but nowhere does it mention that the sugar content is 50% which becomes fat anway!!

[Stella1952]

We'd be better off if they were growing something unprocessed and healthful that you could buy in the produce section

Yeah you right!

This is all an extension of the pseudo-science of veganism (being marketed heavily AND very successfully by the greedhead corporatists) because some people's moms didn't get enough folic acid when they were preggers so their kids don't know ROAD APPLES when they step in 'em!!!

Anyway, agriculture itself is totally unnatural, sooooooo... :rolleyes2 :lipsrseal:tiptoe:

[CareBear]

go back to being hunter-gatherers, and gnaw the meat off the carcasses and eat the produce raw BUT DON'T WASH ANYTHING FIRST. THEN it'll be natural.