Organic candles?

[PurpleHippie]

I have seen adds that state "organic" candles. They are marketing the candles as being a more healthy product, "natural". Oy, here we go again:smiley2: . The wax is better....yada, yada, yada. Once chemicals are added such as dye and fragrance oil isn't the final product no longer "natural" or organic?

[punkflash54]

i'm not sure...but it seems like everyone has their own opinion when it comes to what is considered natural. you can use body safe fragrance oils and i have used dye chips made from soy wax. but i consider my candles and tarts natural

[southern.scents]

After FO and dye is added, it is no longer organic. As far as FO, they are made synthetically and chemically so they would need to be using EO to scent their candles. On top of this wouldn't hemp wicks need to be used to make the candles natural?

[prairieannie]

It's just marketing "stuff". People seem to think they have to use this type of scheming to sell their candles. They are desperate for a niche or a way to seem or be unique and appeal to a different crowd of folks. It's much the same as the big soy hype and trying to make soy seem so superior to paraffin. It's age old, and it's boring for most people by now, but it seems that there's always someone out there trying to make it work for them!

You can consider your candles and tarts all natural all day long, but if they have fragrance oil in them, they just aren't!! Body safe doesn't not mean natural, organic, or anything remotely close. It simply means that the oil is safe to use in products that will be used on your skin. Nothing more.

[southern.scents]

I market as using a natural soy wax but in no way do I sell organic candles. I will say however, I am not a paraffin basher. Im not gonna bash another wax because I was too lazy to work with it. That is exactly why I use soy, no additives or repours.

[prairieannie]

I market as using a natural soy wax but in no way do I sell organic candles. I will say however, I am not a paraffin basher. Im not gonna bash another wax because I was too lazy to work with it. That is exactly why I use soy, no additives or repours.

LOL

[PurpleHippie]

I

market as using a natural soy wax but in no way do I sell organic candles. I will say however, I am not a paraffin basher. Im not gonna bash another wax because I was too lazy to work with it. That is exactly why I use soy, no additives or repours.

I love it!

I make both so I am with you on not bashing one to try and get sales. Just simply not necessary! Whenever I answer a question about my products I try to always focus on just "my" products, in my testing, why mine are made or perform a cetain way. If someone tries to steer me into comparing mine to another brand or another companies information on their candles I stick with focusing on what I create. My experience was just the opposite as yours. The soy I was using required additives to get it to look some what decent and I had to do repours, the paraffin didn't. So many products all with there own challenges. :smiley2:

Seems like I saw some information explaining that not even all EO's are natural or can be considered organic.

[starring]

Does any company ever make an organic soy wax?

[Stella1952]

Now y'all know I am a veggie wax user and a life-long environmentalist, so don't get me wrong in what I am about to say, BUT it aggravates me no end to read all this "natural" and "organic" hype! How in the WORLD can anyone consider soy wax to be "all-natural"? It comes from soybean oil which is chemically extracted from GMO soybeans with hexane, a petroleum-derived solvent! Then it is super hydrogenated to make it hard enough to use as a wax. There is absolutely NOTHING natural about that process! Beeswax is natural. It is wax that occurs naturally thanks to our little bee buddies. Ear wax is all-natural. Soy wax and palm wax are NOT natural. Never have been, never will be. Yep, they DO start out from vegetable sources, but that's as far as it goes!

ORGANIC? First, only a tiny percentage of soybeans grown in this country can be certified as non-GMO (genetically modified organism). Then the non-GMO soybeans must be grown in accordance with organic methods. THEN the oil has to be cold or expeller pressed - not chemically extracted. THEN the oil has to be hydrogenated by a process that is certifiable as organic. Because there is so little demand for organic soy products PLUS the intensive labor involved, it is extremely expensive. Sure, it can be done and there is one company which advertises that they use organic soy for their wax, but it is not a product that is commonly available.

ORGANIC? NOT!!

Riding on the "all-natural" advertising bandwagon is hugely misleading and, to me, is an insult to the people who are honestly growing, manufacturing and making things organically with all-natural (and I mean ALL natural) products.

Calling soy candle wax "100% soy" is also misleading and not accurate. 100% means exactly that - ONE HUNDRED PERCENT. There are plenty of folks who sell soy candles that only contain a fraction of soy wax. That is misleading.

One company whose wax I use has backed off of advertising their waxes as "100% soy" - they now call them "100% vegetable," which, at least, is more honest. Because many of the terms used in the industry - like soy, botanical, all natural, etc. - have no firm definitions or industry standards for candlemaking applications, people are basically free to apply these terms however they wish whether it's true and accurate or not.

I LIKE soy and palm waxes! I use them exclusively and am happy to do so! But I will NOT try to "hype" them in any way, shape or fashion. I have too much respect for customers to do so. They DO produce soot (hydrocarbons), although less than paraffin, depending on the wicking; they can burn somewhat longer than comparable paraffin, depending on the wicking. People have been told that paraffin causes respiratory difficulties, yet paraffin is an inert substance, meaning non-allergenic and non-reactive. Soy IS an allergan. The scent used in paraffin candles is more of a health issue than is the substance itself!

ANY candle containing fragrance oil is NOT all-natural because FOs are not natural. Even essential oils cannot be considered all-natural unless they have been cold or expeller pressed or extracted with carbon dioxide or steam. Organic? Sure - IF those plants were grown using organic methods. Most are not.

While we're on the subject, another thing I find maddening about soy hype is how we're supporting the poor American Soy farmer. In the first place, soy and corn farmers receive the lion's share of all farm subsidies. Of those farmers, only a tiny fraction are small farmers. Most are agro-businesses such as:

Archer Daniels Midland (ADM) is among the largest processors of soybeans and soy products. ADM along with Dow Chemical Company, DuPont and Monsanto support the industry trade associations United Soybean Board (USB) and Soyfoods Association of North America (SANA). These trade associations have increased the consumption of soy products dramatically in recent years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soybean

I think soy and palm (and other veggie derived waxes) stand well on their own merits without hyping them as something which is somehow more pure, more natural or better for ya. When I read hype on a candlemaker's, supplier's or manufacturer's site, I automatically know that either:

1. they are ignorant of easily found FACTS about their products

2. trying to mislead me in some way

3. or both.

[greensoaper]

Why so much hostility towards the organic crowd?

Some of these posts sound about as childish as the "soy is better because parrafin will give you cancer" crap.

Just because you (used in a generic sense) choose not to use CO ingredients, doesn't mean that those who do are "desperate" to find a niche. It doesn't make us sleazy marketers looking to make a fast buck with the hottest buzzword.

Some of us chose to run our businesses as green as possible. We chose to use CO ingredients whenever possible (not just whenever profitable). We choose not to use synthetic fragrances (btw in response to the post above mine, essential oils are not true essential oils if they are extracted by any means other than those you listed, they are absolutes or resins or some other type product). We chose to use our businesses as vehicles to educate the public about the merits of organic farming methods, the downside of corporate farming, or how to look for fairly traded products and what it means to support fair trade in general.

People are going to buy candles, soap and anything else they want anyway. What's wrong with offering them a choice they can feel good about and a bit of education in the process?

If your market doesn't give a flip about greener products, then you shouldn't give a flip about those who sell to a market that does. Bashing each other doesn't benefit anyone.

There is a CO wax blend available. I posted a thread asking about it last night. I'm going to give it a shot. It may suck, but that's my chance to take. No one is demanding that everyone here stop using fos and their wax of choice, so please have some respect for those who choose to do things a little differently than you.

[PurpleHippie]

I like Stella's explanation and I agree that sometimes information given is purposely misleading. It really bugs me when that is done by suppliers. Not always but it does happen. Maybe I interpreted the post differently but I didn't find it hostile towards the organic crowd. Personally I prefer to purchase many organic foods but when doing so I expect if it is labeled as organic it is indeed organic. Not just one ingredient being organic. That's sorta how I look at the "organic" candle. Let's just say the wax is indeed organic, once dye and/or fragrance is added it can't possibly be organic any longer. If someone wants to market their candles by focusing on what type of wax they use that's great! I just have a problem with some of the(IMO)false information that is sometimes used in marketing.

Honestly everyone I didn't mean this thread to turn into another one of those my wax is better than yours. My question was how could a product be labeled as "organic" without every part of it being organic. It was not meant to stir up a fight about WHY someone wants to use a certain type of wax or what is better. That's been done to death around here.

If possible could a Mod please just lock this thread and we can all move on to something else.

[greensoaper]

Many companies making non-food organic products choose to follow the same guidelines that the FDA established for certified organic food products.

There are percentage-based guides to determine how organic a product is and how it must be labeled.

Adding a non CO ingredient to a CO ingredient does not invalidate the use of the term organic when speaking of the original ingredient.

If a candle maker uses CO wax and synthetic fos (though for the life of me I can't figure out why they world) the candle maker is perfectly in the right to use the phrase "made with certified organic vegetable wax" or even labeling with the exact percentage of CO ingredients that are in the candle.

Technically, you can get away with calling any candle "organic" because the FDA/NOP doesn't regulate them. That's why it's important to educate yourself on the rules of the game if you are interested in buying truly organic products.

To me, using CO ingredients is about supporting alternative farming methods and eliminating how many pesticides, hormones and synthetic fertilizers my family and I come into contact with on a daily basis. There are others who feel the same way, and they are my target market and their number is growing every year. Not all "natural" marketing is intended to be misleading. Yes, there are those (coughcoughLUSHcoughcough) who take great liberties with the marketing terms, but that doesn't make us all bad.

I'm not going to say my way is better than your way. Everyone makes their own choices. I'm just asking that people refrain from trying to discredit the intentions of those offering an alternative product.

[patka]

I find this thread very interesting. I have also been wondering about the environmental impact of regular soy candles. I purchased Ecosoya, because their website said that their wax was GMO material free and pesticide free, but then I started thinking about it and also found a post that said that the wax was free from these materials because they disappeared during processing of the soya beans. I just emailed Ecosoya to clarify the issue (I asked them if their wax was GMO free because it was from non-GMO soya beans or if it was GMO free because the processing of the (possibly genetically modified) soybeans removed the GMO material). If they come back and confirm they use non-GMO beans, I will stick with them, but if they say they use potentially GMO beans, I will look for organic wax, not because I want to market them as such (I have not sold any candles), but because I don't want to support an industry that promotes the genetic modification of crops. I would not buy anything from gmo soya beans for my kitchen either, I always buy products with soy that say either organic (organic standards prohibit the use of gmo crops) or non-gmo. Greensoaper, please let us how your candles from organic soya beans work, where do you get the wax etc, if you don't mind. Thanks.

[PurpleHippie]

Well, I am making a comment after I asked for the thread to be closed since it looked like it was going to turn ugly around here again, but...

If a candle maker uses CO wax and synthetic fos (though for the life of me I can't figure out why they world) the candle maker is perfectly in the right to use the phrase "made with certified organic vegetable wax" or even labeling with the exact percentage of CO ingredients that are in the candle.

I like "made with certified organic vegetable wax" if that is indeed the case. I just don't like the general term Organic Candle which to some could imply that the entire product(FO and all) is a total 100% organic product. JMO After all how in the world would we really know if it's organic or not since it's not the same as food.

I'm just asking that people refrain from trying to discredit the intentions of those offering an alternative product.

Good point! Not everyone has the wrong intention and are just out to be misleading on purpose. I guess so many of us have seen some of the false statements made by some just to make their product seem superior that we can kinda get defensive. I can understand how you feel, I feel the same way if someone were to bash my product or intentions with false information. Sometimes it is intentional and other times it is just ignorance.

[prairieannie]

Threads like these don't have to turn ugly.. but sooner or later people start to take things personally and get offended, and well, we all know what happens then.. I personally feel that organic, natural, soy, and SO VERY MUCH of what goes along with it has become nothing but hype out of control. I dont' think people have a clue what they are even selling anymore. I think they read something that sounds fabulous and they jump right off into the water with their latest "line" of crap without first checking to see what the truth really is, and without giving a care in the world to what this never-may-care type of action does to the candle community as a whole.

There is no need to get defensive if you truly and honestly have no ulterior motive, or don't find truth in any of the statements I made in my earlier post. I know there are folks out there who are simply trying to do the best they can to "clean their mental organic house" and if that is you, then I'd guess you don't care to polute the space you live in with negative energy either, so just relax and know that I am not pointing fingers at you or anyone else in this immediate space. I am just one chandler who is sick and tired of people using hype and marketing garbage to sell their candles without ever knowing what it is they spew forth.

Offering an alternative product is wonderful if you are indeed sure of your product and the claims you make about it. If you are not, then you fall by default into the category that deserves to be discredited. My Opinion Only here folks. Not pointing fingers, not calling anyone out.. just stating what I think, and that's it. Some of us just get tired of having smoke blown up the wazoo and needing to find ways to defend it. We shouldn't have to defend misinformation!!

[Stella1952]

I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression - I am REAL excited and passionate about CO products, and their honest marketing. Quite frankly, don't think the FDA goes far enough in all of the standards for their certification process! I buy CO products now and have been doing so since before there WAS a CO standard. I DO expect, however, that when something says it's organic, it better BE organic or it better be clearly labeled how much is and isn't and not glossed over in 5 point type somewhere... I would absolutely LOVE a candle wax product that is organic! I am (perhaps awkwardly) attempting to DEFEND the principles of organic methods, products and living because I DO read between the lines and am aware of the loopholes (through which candles fall completely off the map) in FDA requirements, labeling, etc. There is a difference between honest advertising and the fine art of deception, although these days, that line is really, really blurry! But in all honesty, the line isn't that blurry - marketing makes it so.

FDA standards, CO, etc. are legal definitions and standards for others to argue - makes my brain hurt. What I admire MOST about the whole concept of organic anything is the honesty of it. It's an honest product or method that includes absolutely nothing remotely considered to be harmful, with no frills or hype added, nothing hidden, that is produced in an environmentally sensitive and "green" manner, leaving as small a carbon footprint as possible. The terms "Organic" and "all-natural" are more to me than legal definitions: they are part of an entire philosophy and standard of manufacture, economics and consumption - a way of living.

Some patriotic people get upset about folks wearing shirts that look like American flags because the symbol is very meaningful to them. Others are very defensive about their religious symbols. I am defensive of the "organic" tag in a similar manner. Absolutely NO disrespect was intended in any way, shape or form to organic products, manufacture or living or to the people who are honestly representing, developing, manufacturing and distributing them.

And I think it's okay for people to exchange different viewpoints - even to argue (notice I said "argue" - not fight!) - it's what helps us all grow and think and discover new ideas and to learn. No bad guys - just people exchanging their heartfelt ideas and opinions and experiences.

[patka]

Stella, do you know of any source of vegetable wax that is made from organic crop (the wax doesn't have to be, I don't care for the marketing aspect, but I do care if the crop was grown in a least harmful way for this planet), or at least not genetically modified? As I mentioned in my post above, I suspect Ecosoya could be using gmo crop, but I am waiting for them to confirm that. I will post when / if I hear from them. Does anyone know about some wax from eco-friendly farmed crops?

[Stella1952]

This site is one that has info on organic soy wax they developed (?) and sell candles made from it. You might could contact them and see if they sell the wax or could recommend a supplier...

http://lumia.us/about.html

EcoSoya states their soy contains no GMO and is certified kosher. NatureWax says in their technical data sheets:

GMO STATEMENT: Cargill does not routinely segregate bio-engineered and non-bioengineered sources of oilseeds. Therefore, we must assume that all edible oil products unless labeled as identity preserved (IP) are from bioengineered (GMO) sources of oilseeds.

They are the only manufacturers that I know of who readily address this issue on their websites. HTH

[AAngels]

When I first started with Soy, I got my information from this web page and this is why I use soy candles and soy food products.

Check it out Iowa Soybean Association it has some great information.

Thanks

Kathy

[topofmurrayhill]

If they come back and confirm they use non-GMO beans, I will stick with them, but if they say they use potentially GMO beans, I will look for organic wax, not because I want to market them as such (I have not sold any candles), but because I don't want to support an industry that promotes the genetic modification of crops.

From what I understand, the soybean industry almost universally uses "Roundup-Ready" seed, which is genetically modified to resist the herbicide they spray on the soy crop to kill weeds. Anyone growing organic soybeans is just riding on the coat-tails of Corporate America. Why even support that? We'd be better off if they were growing something unprocessed and healthful that you could buy in the produce section.

Americans aren't the world's biggest appreciators of real food. They're easily manipulated by Agribusiness $$$ to consume whatever crap -- I mean crop -- is currently feeding the factories, running down the conveyor belts or popping out of the extruders or gushing into storage tanks.

Soybeans have no more to do with ecology than does Wonder Bread or Cheerios. Is Crisco oil some kind of "green" product, or the stuff they dunk french fries into at the local fast food joint? Frankly, anyone who thinks they're making a green candle is some kind of propaganda-addled zombie, unless maybe they specialize in beeswax or bayberry.

[prairieannie]

Thanks Top. You always say what I mean!!

[greensoaper]

You know, in my experience skepticism is usually just apathy in disguise.

[Camay]

You know, in my experience skepticism is usually just apathy in disguise.

I guess you are not a scientist?

[coco]

Why so much hostility towards the organic crowd?

Some of these posts sound about as childish as the "soy is better because parrafin will give you cancer" crap.

Just because you (used in a generic sense) choose not to use CO ingredients, doesn't mean that those who do are "desperate" to find a niche. It doesn't make us sleazy marketers looking to make a fast buck with the hottest buzzword.

Some of us chose to run our businesses as green as possible. We chose to use CO ingredients whenever possible (not just whenever profitable). We choose not to use synthetic fragrances (btw in response to the post above mine, essential oils are not true essential oils if they are extracted by any means other than those you listed, they are absolutes or resins or some other type product). We chose to use our businesses as vehicles to educate the public about the merits of organic farming methods, the downside of corporate farming, or how to look for fairly traded products and what it means to support fair trade in general.

People are going to buy candles, soap and anything else they want anyway. What's wrong with offering them a choice they can feel good about and a bit of education in the process?

If your market doesn't give a flip about greener products, then you shouldn't give a flip about those who sell to a market that does. Bashing each other doesn't benefit anyone.

There is a CO wax blend available. I posted a thread asking about it last night. I'm going to give it a shot. It may suck, but that's my chance to take. No one is demanding that everyone here stop using fos and their wax of choice, so please have some respect for those who choose to do things a little differently than you.

Wow. I didn't even get the slightest hint in any of these posts that anyone was bashing an organic product. Quite the opposite, I see so many people struggling to find a way to produce one that actually IS organic. It appears to me that many of these folks have done extensive research in trying to find a way to create an organic product and are finding (through RESEARCH not skepticism) that calling a candle "100% green" is just not legitimate. Not to say that it couldn't be produced, just not with the products that are currently being used. Organic products are VERY much desired, though those who buy an "organic" product expect it to be just that, just as a vegan would not appreciate eggs mixed in with their tofu and called a "vegan" meal.

[CareBear]

Bashing? Nah. I've noticed no hostility toward the organic crowd or organic or green products. I've seen plenty, though, toward the organic CLAIMS some make.

And to truly educate folk, which is a GOOD thing to do, be sure to give them a well rounded POV. For example - that veggie wax also impacts the environmental as does everything we make or do. There is the growing, mfg, shipping and more. Even the PR produces pollution. Extracting the EOs takes energy as well, including mfg the equipment to do so. EVERYTHING has an impact and it's a matter of balance - but without a feel for both sides...

(like, now washing dishes by hand takes more water than most dishwashers... but then there is pollution from mfg & powering the dishwasher... hmm tough call... See what I mean?)

I'm all for educated, responsible decision making -