Organic candles?

[kimmeroo]

So my question is..why are "we"(chandlers) putting ourselves through all the different soy wax testing if none of it matters anyways because it's not organic,all natural unless it's beeswax or bayberry? So it really wouldn't matter if I made"Soybean" candles and used a para-soy cause it's basically all the same..not organic! I know alot of it is advertising/marketing...what should the chandlers do that got sucked up in the all natural 100% soybean craze? I was just wondering what can be done to change this "LIE" that is out there people are actually sucking in.? Me,being one of them until I just read this thread.

Kimmeroo

[coco]

So my question is..why are "we"(chandlers) putting ourselves through all the different soy wax testing if none of it matters anyways because it's not organic,all natural unless it's beeswax or bayberry? So it really wouldn't matter if I made"Soybean" candles and used a para-soy cause it's basically all the same..not organic! I know alot of it is advertising/marketing...what should the chandlers do that got sucked up in the all natural 100% soybean craze? I was just wondering what can be done to change this "LIE" that is out there people are actually sucking in.? Me,being one of them until I just read this thread.

Kimmeroo

<Shrug> For me personally, I didn't start making soy candles because I believed them to be 100% organic. From an ecological/environmental standpoint, they are better than paraffin and most environmentally conscious folk will choose a soy candle for that reason, though it doesn't make them "green". People that are die-hard "go green" shoppers will expect everything in the product to be 100% CO. I, like many people are drawn to the simple fact that they burn clean, no soot (boy do I enjoy no longer having to wash black off of my walls!), and the wax can be cleaned up with warm soapy water. Don't let the comments regarding the fact that it isn't 100% organic outweigh the many benefits that soy candles do have!

[PurpleHippie]

I have burned several soy candles that produced more soot than some paraffin candles. It depends on the wick, the FO and if the candle was burned properly. I've had some paraffin candles burn longer than some soy and some soy burn longer than some paraffins. That's one of the issues I have with some of the information being used to market soy, natural, or organic candles. That they will never produce soot and that they always burn longer than paraffin. That along with false information concerning them some how being a healthier product to use. I am not bashing them, heck I make them!!! I make soy, paraffin, parasoy and have made beeswax candles. I like each wax for different reasons. I don't market my candles based on one wax being superior to the other. When making B&B products I state if a product contains soy because I know there are people with soy allergies. So when making a candle I state that it contains soy for the same reason. I orginally began making soy candles because I lived in a large farming community and I like the idea of using soy that in some small way helped farmers that grew soybeans. Demand is much greater now days so that isn't so much an issue. I continue to produce a very small line of soy candles for those customers that have been buying them from me since I first began making them. I like soy, most of the time. I like the consistant results I get with paraffin better. I don't play up the type of wax I use, I focus on and market the end result which I consider to be a well made candle. Not a perfect candle but one that I am proud of and customers like also.

What I am sick of is the false information that is being spread about wax(on both sides) just to sell a candle.

[kimmeroo]

Like, if I decided to go with a para-soy to eliminate the crappy tops that soy gives but get the great throw because of the paraffin in it,can I still call the candle a soy candle? I know I couldn't say 100%,but can I still call it soy?

I personally got into soy because we have alot of "Green" ppl that live here(or wannabee's anyhow) and that is all I heard..do you make soy, so that's what I did. I personally like the para-soy better but i read somewhere that it wold be dishonest to market that candle as soy being it wasn't 100%.

Do you kind of see what I am saying? If it isn't 100% any which way you slice it what does it matter what soy or soy blend wax you use if it isn't "organic" anyhow?

I will just keep testing... Kimmeroo

[topofmurrayhill]

I don't play up the type of wax I use, I focus on and market the end result which I consider to be a well made candle. Not a perfect candle but one that I am proud of and customers like also.

God bless you.

[topofmurrayhill]

Like, if I decided to go with a para-soy to eliminate the crappy tops that soy gives but get the great throw because of the paraffin in it,can I still call the candle a soy candle?

You most certainly can. Even the Ministry of Soybean Propaganda agrees you can call it a soy candle. There's no official definition of what soy wax is, but obviously it should have a high proportion of soy in it. Personally I'd go with a 70/30 blend. With that sort of wax, one of the soybean growers' associations will actually certify your product as a genuine soy candle.

[kimmeroo]

Thanks again Top! I am glad you sifted through what I was trying to point out! I guess I can start saving time and money....

Kimmeroo

[AAngels]

I like the part where it says made from soybeans only.

Go to the Iowa Soybean Association and check it out. Read what they say. The are where the major soybean crops are.

Thanks

Kathy

[Stella1952]

Like, if I decided to go with a para-soy to eliminate the crappy tops that soy gives but get the great throw because of the paraffin in it,can I still call the candle a soy candle? I know I couldn't say 100%,but can I still call it soy?

Kimmeroo, what is WRONG with calling it EXACTLY what it is - a parasoy candle? Why are you even thinking of trying to leave out the "para"? I don't care whether calling a candle with mixed waxes is sanctioned by the Blues Brothers - just tell the honest truth and nuttin' but the truth and you won't go wrong.

When I first started with Soy, I got my information from this web page and this is why I use soy candles and soy food products...

Go to the Iowa Soybean Association and check it out. Read what they say.

Kathy, I can't speak for others, but I HAVE read what the Iowa Soybean Association site has to say. You have twice in this thread suggested that others go to that site and read but did not offer the URL. Here it is, folks:

http://www.iasoybeans.com/soystory.html

That's a direct link to one of the typically slanted, occasionally truthful, twisted logic, all-natural organic fertilizer sites I have read. Here's an excerpt:

"Soy Equals Health

Healthy people. Hundreds of food products rely on heart-healthy soy for their nutritional value. From energy bars to yogurt, tortillas, pastas, new low linolenic oils and more, soy protein and oil enhance mainstream foods."

The fact that the soy food industry is labeling itself heart-healthy is a lie, as is the statement above: "soy equals health." New research shows it ain't all that. Soy most CERTAINLY does not equal health, unless we are talking about bad health as well as good health! Just ask the millions of people in our country who are mildly to extremely allergic to soy products, thanks to the fact that their LOBBY has gotten them sneaked into nearly EVERY food imaginable (even water packed white albacore TUNA). Soy products are responsible for a sharp RISE in thyroid disease in this country.

I also resent the "farmer" propaganda on that site. The soybean and corn agribusiness is the largest recipient of farm subsidies (handouts) by our government, but very little actually trickles down to the small, independent farmer.

I hope that the reasons people choose to use soy wax and food products have very little to do with what is on propaganda sites and has MORE to do with actual unbiased product research.

So my question is..why are "we"(chandlers) putting ourselves through all the different soy wax testing if none of it matters anyways because it's not organic,all natural unless it's beeswax or bayberry?...

what should the chandlers do that got sucked up in the all natural 100% soybean craze? I was just wondering what can be done to change this "LIE" that is out there people are actually sucking in.? Me,being one of them until I just read this thread.

(sorry - I hadda un-bold the quote - it's like visual shouting).

Kimmeroo, we "put ourselves through" testing because we are trying to make a reliable, high quality product. Testing has nothing to do with whether the wax is organic or natural or not. Since veggie waxes are relatively new products (especially as compared to paraffin and beeswax), they have not been as thoroughly researched and "tweaked" as have paraffin waxes.

If one feels like assertions they have made about their product are not accurate, stop making them. That's all. Try to present the product from an HONEST, balanced point of view. A BIG lesson for folks to learn is to RESEARCH thoroughly BEFORE you make assertions! This isn't the first time the "all natural" and "organic" points have been discussed here at CT and these issues are discussed elsewhere.

You know, in my experience skepticism is usually just apathy in disguise

Greensoaper, I think the reverse is truer - LACK of skepticism is apathy because people don't care enough to QUESTION what they are accepting as fact. Thanks to what's happened to education in this country, we have a couple of generations of individuals who were not TAUGHT critical reading skills in school. They have been taught to accept what they read at face value. It's a sad thing when people just blindly accept what advertising and marketing tells them without doing their own independent research.

[AAngels]

Sorry about that forgot to put it in.

Yes, I believe soy is healthy especially when consumed. I have a heart situation and my cardilogist is all for it!

I love the idea of soybeans and the farmers and helping the economy, changing it anyway it can be.

Everyone's opinion is going to be different, that is why it is not a boring world.

Believe---------------is what you make of it. I always tell people candles are as natural as natural can be.

Thanks

Kathy

[topofmurrayhill]

Since veggie waxes are relatively new products (especially as compared to paraffin and beeswax), they have not been as thoroughly researched and "tweaked" as have paraffin waxes.

Is this realistic?

Hydrogenation is nothing new. The food industry didn't just start dealing with vegetable shortening yesterday. The useful candlemaking molecules in a soybean are fatty acids and glycerin -- you can only do so much with it.

Cargill has been filing patents full of oleochem babble for years. A large proportion of people still just buy plain vegetable shortening from GB and get just as good (or bad) a result doing their own thing versus using preformulated blends. Dating from when I started on CT, the most significant development is that plain vegetable shortening is more widely available and easier to get.

What's new is the cash crop big business is trying to sell, so they're pushing all-veggie waxes for candlemaking despite the disadvantages and paying people like Tong Wang to tell scientific-sounding lies about the advantages.

[kimmeroo]

I cannot put into the right words the point I am trying to get across.Sorry. The one reason I was wondering about the parasoy and soy candle thing is I have a few hundred labels that say "soybean" candles on them and if I did switch if I could still use them.Top answered that one..but I honestly don't know if I will switch or not..I was just asking to get everyone's point of view.That is one of my qualities as a person,I am a very honest person and if I didn't care and wanted to be dishonest I would just do it and not bother with anyone's opinion about it.Thank's again for all of your responses it is greatly appreciated.

(sorry - I hadda un-bold the quote - it's like visual shouting)

Kimmeroo (Sorry Stella if you thought I was shouting,if you look at any of my threads or responses they are all in bold,it helps me to see better as I am typing,except this one,of course,I don't mean anything bad by it.)

[Stella1952]

Oh Heck, Kimmeroo - I figgered that out. I haveta make the type on my screen bigger so I can see it :rolleyes2

I don't think it's a terrible thing to use up preprinted labels! I print my own, so when I realized how much hype was going on with the soy candles, I was able to simply remove a word here and there on mine. If I had preprinted ones, I think I would use them up first! I think you ARE a very conscientious person, which is obvious because of all the questions you ask and knowledge you seek.

[topofmurrayhill]

Kimmeroo, try not to take those remarks too seriously.

Believe me, only a soy candlemaker would ever express that sort of overwrought principle about "honesty" in candle ingredients. No matter how they rationalize it or say it should apply to all candles, at heart it comes from feeling that people who use 100% soy should get credit for working on a higher plane. Nobody should be able to claim they sell Holy Water if they add 30% Poland Spring, lol.

Do you think this issue would ever come up in a million years over selling a paraffin candle that happened to include 30% soy and didn't mention it on the label? Of course not. It never did, for instance, when Astorlite was selling J-300 parasoy container wax. Actually, most paraffin candles aren't 100% paraffin and a lot of them include vegetable-derived ingredients. Most soy candles aren't 100% soy either. Don't deel bad over one person's extreme views.

[Stella1952]

Believe me, only a soy candlemaker would ever express that sort of overwrought principle about "honesty" in candle ingredients. No matter how they rationalize it or say it should apply to all candles, at heart it comes from feeling that people who use 100% soy should get credit for working on a higher plane.

Awww Top, I DO feel that way about honesty in labeling and advertising but I do not agree that people who use 100% soy (which there isn't any of anyway) expect "credit for working on a higher plane." I think most are sincere people who have been sold a line of bull, which is why it's important to have these discussions. I see no reason to bash them or folks who want to use soy (in any amount) in their candles. Perhaps some folks are a little effete about issues of greenery, veganism and organic living, but most that I have encountered are really good people who care passionately about their beliefs.

[zanyboy]

This is a great post. It opens up a little bit about the industry.

This is the reason I am trying to switch to a good soy product. Petroleum products and including petroleum derived products ( mineral oil, vaseline, plastic-need heat to release) can mimic the effects of estrogen. They are called xenoestrogens. They have estrogen like activity. They have the ability to create hormonal imbalance in your body wreaking havoc with your monthly cycle and even a reduction in sperm count in men (there are others). Also, I have always had ringing of the ear and it is because of petroleum products.

I do realize that with soy you encounter petroleum derived products, but they may be at a reduced amount.

Xenoestrogen products also include:

~pesticides

~Herbicides and fungicides

~plastics -heated

~styrofoam -heated

~Petroleum based wax

~nonylphenols- used in detergents, cosmetics, and toiletries.

I am not condemning anything or hyping anything. Just wanted to put another angle to the subject.

[CareBear]

zany, has the petroleum-ear ringing thing been proven? that sounds just awful considering the world pretty much runs on the stuff - just take a breath at a gas station and there ya are!

[zanyboy]

I know it may sound far fetched to some, but your body is very individualized. Yeah! it could be as easy as sniffin' petro stuff in and getting ear ringing, but our bodies have the capability to handle a certain amount of junk. It is when it is overloaded that it starts to faulter. This correlation between ringing ears and petro is a generation DNA thing from my dads side. You could say that it is from load noise or other factors, but it has been linked for us.

This is one of those things where you never know.

[CareBear]

I'm not disbelieving - the world is a wacky place. But I'm curious how the link was made and how other posibilities were eliminated. Don't understand what a generation DNA thing is - do you mean it's genetic? Does it have a name?

If you were suffering from that and you got it resolved that's just marvelous.

[topofmurrayhill]

This is kinda funny.

Pesticides, herbicides and the like, whatever is used in their manufacture, are not even vaguely the same thing as the substances directly extracted from crude oil. The whole estrogen thing has nothing whatsoever to do with paraffin, although some ill-informed people are starting to get it all mixed up. The stuff the candlestick is made of, the propane in your barbecue, and the natural gas from your stove are all forms of paraffin and have no estrogen-like effect whatsoever.

What makes it humorous is that there's a legitimate controversy over substances in soybeans that act like hormones. Type "soy estrogen" into Google and you'll get the idea. However, this issue doesn't pertain to soy oil or shortening. You would have to eat whole soybeans or the soy protein products. Nothing to do with candles, just people eating the latest crap out of the factories.

[zanyboy]

Petroleum products and bi-products have compounds that mimic estrogen. So, yes petroleum does have something to do with estrogen. Everyone is individualized in their reaction to certain products. So, for myself I want to find a better alternative. You can't discount that everyone is individualize. For some petro won't bother them and others it will. It is not hype.

[topofmurrayhill]

Petroleum products and bi-products have compounds that mimic estrogen. So, yes petroleum does have something to do with estrogen. Everyone is individualized in their reaction to certain products. So, for myself I want to find a better alternative. You can't discount that everyone is individualize. For some petro won't bother them and others it will. It is not hype.

Baloney. There's some little contingent of people that will believe just about any nonsense.

http://www.shirleymaclaine.com/articles/health/article-270

Written by someone selling progesterone cream, with an anecdotal reference to some quack who admits to not knowing anything, but then goes on to "theorize" "feel" and "believe" that something has something to do with the "petroleum molecule" being similar to the estrogen molecule.

Let us just note that there is no such thing as a "petroleum molecule".

More zombies. The horror films come to life. They're everywhere.

[zanyboy]

I figured you would respond to this. Did I hit a nerve? There is not need for claws to come out.

I do not follow hollywood stuff, news, hype ect. I follow things based on my own experience. You are playing it down that everyone is individualized. Honestly you can't.

Nothing wrong with feeling the way you do. I am putting it out based on my own experience and if it can relate and help someone else out then wonderful.

[Camay]

I am curious about the answers to CareBear's questions. How did your doctors genetically link petroleum and petroleum by-products to ringing in your ears? And how did they eliminate other possible causes?

[AAngels]

Has anyone thought about writing companies to find out for sure? I am sure there has been a post about the soy from wax companies.

I have a couple I have written too and waiting for a response and once I have it. I will post it.

I know companies might say what they want, but like to read anyways.

Thanks

Kathy