Candle seller requiring signatures.....

[leisa2003]

Hi, I had visited a large candle store recently, and they actually had customers who purchased their candles, sign this little paper, that stated that the buyer would not hold their company liable for any mis-use of the candle, causing injury or damage of any kind.:undecided Anyone else see this? And does this protect us?

[bugtussle]

If they have no more confidence in their candles than that, I would turn around & walk out. :tiptoe: :tiptoe: Carole

[leisa2003]

I didn't buy any of course, but was told their insurance insisted they do this. I just bought some fall leaves from them.

[primitive_crafter]

What happens if this is ment for a gift?

[bugtussle]

My guess is that they DO NOT have insurance. C

[TxSioux]

I've joked about doing that, but have never heard of it actually being done! I wouldn't think it indicates a lack of confidence in their product, perhaps more of a lack of confidence in human judgement, lawyers & our court system! I'd be interested in seeing the wording, but it sounds like they're just asking people to be responsible for actually reading the label & burning it correctly. They would still be at fault for any manufacturing errors, like a pocket of oil that ignites.

I have a friend (& she's very intelligent!) who called to tell me she had just finished burning one of my candles & the glass was coated w/ thick black soot. I went over to take a look & this thing was pitch black. When I picked it up the bottom was covered - & I mean COVERED - w/ mushroom pieces. She never trims her wicks, is a marathon burner, leaves candles burning when she leaves the house & doesn't clean out pieces that fall in the wax. I can't believe she didn't have a small fire from all the residue, or that the glass didn't explode. There wasn't a drop of wax left. It gets better ... she then asked me if I could clean & refill the container!! I'm not against refilling quality containers, but that thing had to have gotten so hot I would never trust how badly it had been compromised. So, I made a good candle & she abused every burning rule in the book ... I would have never been able to prove what really happened if her house burned down! I had another friend (she has a Master's Degree!) bring me a cracked votive holder & told me my wick just floated to the side & broke the glass. When I dug out the wax I found SIX wick tabs! She just kept putting in new votives on the pile of old tabs. I can't even trust my friends that I tell over & over how to burn correctly, so what do you think the general public does!?!

I think it's a very good idea to make the public take responsibility for their own stupidity, but every candle sold carries the responsibility of being made correctly. Scary stuff when you see what people do!

Susan.

[sudsnwicks]

Was anyone else buying things while you were there? Just wondering they willingly signed the waiver. I have never had to sign a waiver for anything I bought before.

[bugtussle]

And what if the candle is NOT made correctly?? The purchaser might do everything correctly and still set their home on fire. Who would believe the purchaser if they had signed a form releasing the mfg of all responsibility?

What if everytime you bought a consumer product you were asked to sign a release form? If my toaster shorted out and burned my house down, the responsibily would fall on me?

I think you serve your customer better by putting a clear, complete warning label on every candle and by having a good liability policy. C

[leisa2003]

Susan, I dont know how to post a scanned pic on here, but I can type the wording, leaving out the name of the company of course.

I am purchasing a candle from_________ company, and I have received warning labeling with my products. I agree to not hold ________ company responsible for any consumer damages or injuries caused by my mis-use or neglect of their products.

Signed:_____________________

My understanding is once these are signed they keep them on file, they gave me one but I didnt actually buy a candle, so the lady just left it sitting their, so I grabbed it to read.

[CareBear]

have them sign anything you like. doesn't mean they cannot sue you and win (you cannot legally sign away your rights). landlords pull that all the time and it doesn't hold up.

I think it would be BETTER to have them sign that they have read and understood the warning label and leave it at that.

[Candybee]

I didn't buy any of course, but was told their insurance insisted they do this. I just bought some fall leaves from them.

Wonder what insurance company would insist that they do this waiver? Sounds phony to me.

[HeavenScentU]

It sounds legit. I have had an insurance agent tell me to do the same thing. It protects them. I have signed alot of real estate contracts that state I wouldn't sue them for any reason. And it would hold up in court... If you have a good lawyer and a good insurance agent I don't see why it wouldn't work.

[CareBear]

I've signed those too. Not enforceable. Do a search on "can you sign away your right to sue" and you can find lots of stuff on it.

[leisa2003]

I did google what you asked, and found mixed messages.

One, and here's the link:

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-5708086.html

Copied...

Americans are giving up their right to sue. To sue their banks over credit card and account disputes. To sue their Realtors over real estate purchases gone awry. To sue their mortgage companies over false advertising. To sue their doctors for malpractice or their health plans over coverage. Even to sue a computer maker over a defective machine.

Often they are giving up the right without even knowing it, consenting to have disputes settled outside a courtroom through arbitration in which a private referee or panel renders a binding, nonappealable decision.

Here is another one...

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/right_to_sue.htm

WASHINGTON, May 22, 1999 -- The right to seek redress in the courts is every American's birthright, but it is being signed away everyday by consumers too busy to notice.

Tired of having to defend themselves in court, banks, car dealers, computer firms, credit card companies and others are inserting clauses in their service agreements and contracts that prohibit their customers from suing or even participating in class-action lawsuits. Instead, consumers agree to use arbitration or mediation, a process under which they give up their right to trial by jury and the strict rules of discovery and procedure that protect the rights of both sides in a court proceeding.

[CareBear]

mixed indeed. I was looking at whether or not it was enforceable. But either way - I guess folks are doing it, and signing off on stuff like that.

[TxSioux]

I was just illustrating how really stupid people can be & not see how wrong their actions are. As I said, every candle carries the responsibility of being made correctly. The form isn't releasing the manufacturer of all responsibility, it's saying the consumer will read/adhere to the warning label & the maker is not responsible for misuse of product. But really, shouldn't proper use be assumed w/ purchase! I can only imagine how hard it would be to find the truth by the time things go to court. I admit, I have issues when the topic turns to frivolous lawsuits (not that burning down a house is frivolous) ... I'm just amazed that the message from our judicial system is: you're not responsible for your own stupidity & we'll give you lots of money for abusing the system. Yes, this drives home the importance of carrying sufficient insurance & testing products endlessly. It would be great to have everyone sign a copy of burning instructions to verify understanding, but it sure isn't practical, nor would it really matter. These are the topics that remind us we actually are playing w/ fire & need to be at the top of our game.

Susan.

[MissMary]

What TxSioux said.

Unfortunately, there are idiots winning cases with the warnings in place and saying "Oops, I never saw it", "The label was never there", "the words were too small", etc.

I mean, if we didn't have stupid lawsuits, we wouldn't have airplane peanuts have "This product contains nuts", blowdryers "do not use while in the shower/tub", and so on.

It's probably not so much as forced by the insurance as that particular company allows a break on payments if they have this additional part in place. Sorta like buying a used car, you sign an "as is" clause. Now, MAJOR defects that they knew about you can still go after, but if it needs an oil change, or new tires, then no.

In actuality, in almost anything you do (though candles is obviously very rare), you sign some form of agreement like this, in it's own right. Some stores simply put up signs that your receipt is acknowledgement of safety warnings.

Sorry to say, as I've been studying - it seems like we are heading towards having to sign waivers to buy crackers (which some actually come with a choking warning now). Lots of companies that did nothing wrong and can't handle these suits are being forced out everyday.

[leisa2003]

What happens if this is ment for a gift?

I would think, baught as a gift even, if something happened and they tried to sue the candle co. for whatever reason, the one who bought the candle would also be involved if it went to court. Courts would asked who purchased the candle for her....etc.. They ask EVERY emaginable question when it comes to a lawsuit.

[Lorelei]

And another I've seen....

The bolded wording and title distracted from the smaller writing thereby averting eyes away from the warning. Yes I'm serious. This was from another field than candles and BB but it indeed was a position that the defense held. So even HOW the words are presented on the label or paper could be brought up.

[EricofAZ]

Insurance companies these days are getting worse and worse at killing products. Many are requiring waivers. First off, most waivers don't hold up in court. Second, there is only a claim for damages if the candle was defective. Negligent use or abuse might be a claim if there was a failure to warn. So if the seller does it right, ie, makes a good candle and warns properly, there should be no negligence on the part of the seller and a lawsuit is probably going nowhere. If the seller does it wrong, then there is exposure to litigation for damages CAUSED BY the seller and the waiver is probably going to fail because you can't waive away your right to life (in wrongful death cases). It may also fail in non-death cases because it is nearly impossible to know what future damages might be when you buy a candle (uninformed consent).

The only thing the waivers really do is deter some folks from filing lawsuits of little things. Quite frankly, the cost of litigation is so expensive these days that this is pretty rare. Oh, folks make the threat in stupid ways like: "Your candle smelled bad and it ruined my party, I'm going to sue you for all you have and take your house." Every heard of this happening? No? There's a reason why nobody ever looses their home because the candle ruined a party so those are just cranky people who are ignorant to how the law works.

Any product I make will be made to standards. Any sales I make will be honorable. I will follow my insurance carriers advice and more importantly, industry standards, as to the warning labels and safety of the product. Any carrier that requires that I put out a waiver (implying that my product is sub standard) can take a long walk off a short pier.

I think there is a case to be made against the carrier that the waiver implies that there is no confidence in the produce and this interferes with business relations.

I would not buy from anyone that wants a waiver signed. I would not ask for a waiver from any customer. The product is good and I expect my carrier to indemnify me if it is not.

[Di_in_AZ]

The way I read it, it says they are not liable for any damage or injury from "mis-use or neglect" of the products. To me that says if the customer lets the candle burn next to a curtain, or burn all the way down and causing a fire, they are not liable. No where does it excuse them from liability from defect of their product. I actually think that is reasonable--everytime I see a fire listed in the paper caused by a candle, it is because the candle was left unattended or burned next to something flammable. That should never be the fault of the candlemaker.

[Candybee]

I would not buy from anyone that wants a waiver signed. I would not ask for a waiver from any customer. The product is good and I expect my carrier to indemnify me if it is not.

Exactly. The very idea of asking a customer to sign a waiver to buy a candle sounds stupid to me and a good way to lose business very quickly. I also would drop any insurance company asking me to do it.