Giving Out Formulas

[kidsngarden]

As for the anybody can make a candle thing - what a bunch of bull! I can make tons of great bath and body. I have made and tested formulas over and over to get it right. But when I try soy candles - man I just don't have the patience! Every container, every wick, every FO. All needs to be tested and it takes much more time in my opinion to do it than with a lot of B&B products. I have given up soy candles for now until I can devote more time and cash to it!

Bethany

[Jodi in Ohio]

My boss was upset that I was charging $10.00 for my candles. He said, "you can get one just like that for a dollar at the dollar store." So at Christmas everyone in the office got one of my awesome smelling candles and he got one from the dollar store. No, not really but the thought sure did cross my mind!

Anyways, I am dealing with a similar issue, but different. :embarasse A girl I recently met at work tried one of my candles and now wants to go into business with me. I told her some things I now regret. She kind of put me on the spot in a way because I had not decided that I wanted a partnership, and I did'nt want to offend her if I did. We talked about it and she said that it would be o.k. with her if I wanted to be sole proprieter and have her do all the marketing as an employee. I told her we needed to have a long talk if we did go partnership because I felt uncomfortable giving out my secrets. Yes, I put it to her point blank! I was uneasy about telling her all my secrets. :lipsrseal But when she would ask, I felt bad for wanting to hold back. At first with her it was o.k., no problem, I understand. Needless to say she has a few accounts that are really wanting my candles and now she is pushing for partnership with 50/50 split. Now how do you do that fairly? I had given her over 20 candles to try and promote business at a few places where she did some business of her own. Well some of the candles disapperared and she got offensive when I asked for the list I had given her. She said she had lost it. She finally called me back with the list but there were still three that I remember giving het she did not account for. She started naming my candles and wanting to change the formula because she had some 50/50 wax sitting around her house unused. She got uptight because I didn't like her jar choices when she went searching for jars on the internet. I felt like I was being taken over. :bump: I feel so cheated and have'nt even entered in to the partnership yet. I don't want to now, but don't know how to tell her.

Sorry, I too am venting!

[Candybee]

Jodi

Its your business so you make the decision. Don't let her pressure you. The way you describe the situation sounds like she is taking advantage of you. How on earth does she figure she gets a 50/50 split?!!!

As for customers asking about my candles or soap I answer questions relating to ingredients only. When someone asks me what's in my soap I don't take offense. I let them know the 'main' ingredient that I know they are really asking about. Often times it is because of allergies, skin sensitivity, skin problems, dry skin, etc. Either they have or they are buying for someone who may have allergies or is sensitive to certain ingredients or fragrances. No need to be offended by these questions.

If they start asking about how do I make my soap or candles I give them the general basics and encourage them to learn as much as they can on their own.

I tend to think that a customer is asking because they just want to know what the ingredients are not really interested in a whole spiel about how I

make it.

After all, I always want to know what is in the products I buy. I think its normal for people to ask.

[Jodi in Ohio]

Thanks Candybee!

[gingerinarkansas]

Jodi, if you've got bad vibes about the partnership....DON'T DO IT and just tell her that you would rather persue it on your own. End of conversation!!! Ginger

[Stella1952]

This isn't just a problem with candlemaking - I make other handcrafted items that require the use of "secret" formulas. I have actually given people my formulas on a couple of occasions in the distant past and learned NEVER to do that because the people do not know what they are doing or have any kind of understanding of the medium and the techniques involved. They inevitably come back and tell me their's didn't come out like mine. Then they badger me with more questions, etc. The other thing that happened was that the person modified the formula I gave them, then told folks it was "my formula" - did I mention that theirs looked terrible? I was very embarrassed, but it taught me a needed lesson...:rolleyes2

So nowadays, if the person is a complete noob, I tell them the basic ingredients that are on the label (or point to the sign that has the ingredients listed for all to see or hand them a pamphlet). If they want more than that, I suggest they go take a class or something. I explain that I am a manufacturer, not an educator and I would probably just confuse them totally...I treat them kindly and try to let them know that it's a lot more than just sticking a wick in some wax... I frequently refer them here to learn.

Some folks are just plain rude and have no respect for handcrafted items of any genre. If they press me for more, I ask why they want to know? If they seem sincere, I refer them here. If they are buttheads, I encourage them to contact Yankee Candles to learn how they make their candles...

I despise folks who question pricing, telling me they can get whatever it is for much less somewhere else. I explain that I put a lot of work into my products and if they do not feel the products are worth the price asked, they are welcome to purchase from their other source. If they continue, I get very pointed and remind them that denigrating my products will not avail them anything and to move along... Some competitive people will do this sort of thing deliberately to shake the confidence of another seller... they don't have much fun with me. I don't send out spies and I don't respond to them either. Whether my competition is friendly and respectful or not, I refuse to be drawn into their junior high games.

[Jodi in Ohio]

Thank you Ginger and Stella for the great advice! :highfive:

Jodi

[Scented]

We've always got people fishing for where we get this or that. I guess I no longer get offended by it as it's going to happen.

Now when they just won't let up then I might get a little testy.

My favorite line is, "I don't sell or anything. I just make for myself. I was wondering where you get this scent." Or, "I was hoping you would list exactly what this scent is." We do. Read the name on the label

[chauntelle]

Ive only done a few shows but have had people ask me how do you make a candle and where do you start and i always answer 'its a bit like making a cake. you start with raw ingrediants and mix them together in quantities and ways you think will work and then after it is done you have to change certain ingrediants and measurements to make it good just like you would a cake!' this normally gets them thinking so i then add it takes alot of time mistakes and money until you get what u want as there is so many variables. If they are still serious they will ask more personal questions about how i found out what i know to which i just reply i was very lucky to know a shop that USED to sell candle supplies and then i just did lots of research - no rudness and usually a happy purchasing customer! If they are serious they will find out themselves!!

[EmpressC]

This is a great and informative thread! I will be doing my first show in a couple of weeks and because of this thread, now I can have a readied response if/when I get questions about my formulas and suppliers, etc. If people want to know the ingredients, I'm perfectly willing to discuss the wonderful properties in my B&B, or to let them know I'm selling paraffin candles. But anything more specific, I'll just smile and say "I'm sorry but I don't give out proprietary information on my products. However, the internet will allow you to do a lot of research on your own if you're really interested."

[Luvcandletarts2]

I have to add my 2 cents worth: one of my good friends for a good 10 years or so, (so, I thought), was happy I was making very good candles and kept telling me to get them up for sale. I repeatedly told her that there is a lot of testing to do before I will sell them. Then I told her I was going to be making body butter and sprays. She knows I also make air freshener sprays and hanging ones.

One day out of the blue, she asks me to tell her my formula, and I replied, oh, I can't give that away, I am spending too much time and money to get where I am at. So, again out of the blue, she tells me that she wants to invest in my company and then I "HAVE" to tell her my formulas. I repeatedly told her, no, I do not! Finally, I had to tell her, I have waited too long in my life to start this kind of business and am not taking investors at this time.

And guess what? She hasn't spoken to me since. I have learned a lot about her. She was trying to use me for a get rich quick scheme. I see that now, she is only trying to make money quick.

Found out from another friend (her neighbor), that owned a farm house, and was not using the upstairs part of the house. She told him to let her husband do the renovating and turn it into an apartment, with separate entrance. He wanted to, but realized he would not see any money for a while. She doesn't talk with him anymore now either.

Now, she is working at the bar I used to years ago, she wants to buy that bar. She is working on the owner to sell it to her. Her and her brother "USED" to own a bar and they let someone buy in, and couldn't stand him. They had him and another "jerk" buy them out. Bad mistake. The jerk tried to resell it back, but wanted many bucks for it. She knows she made a mistake.

My other friend and I were thinking about telling the owner of the bar, but he is not stupid and we think he knows. He keeps telling people it's not for sale.

Just had to say my 2 cents worth. I guess I found out, and was the stupid one, that she only used me as a friend, but for 10 years? I say to her.

[Candybee]

I would be pretty hurt finding out a friend of mine for 10 years was using me. You are so much better off without her but I don't know how you get over something like that. Yeesh! Hang in there-- you don't need 'friends' like that!

[BlackCrow]

This is such an interesting topic. When I did my very first craft show I was'nt expecting anyone to ask me how to make certan things...so when they did I thought they were just curious and I was happy to tell them how I did it. Well, I quickly learned after being asked twice to keep my mouth shut. I told this one gal how i did something...as she was looking at my product for a long time and I thought she was going to buy...but when I told her how I did it she put theitem down and said she was going to try that at home and walked away!!!

I have been asked by family members a number of times on how I make my candles....they asked me to actually physically teach them how to make them saying that they dont plan on selling candles...jsut want to make them for personal use. I said there is alot involved and I really cant show them eveything in one session and they are better off continueing to buy their candles as the supplies, molds, equipments, dyes, wicks, testing...I really went on and on about what was involved...would not be worth it for them. I turned them off candle making.

In any case, then I get asked questions about any of my products I stick with the basics....they have a right to know the basic ingedients. If they get persistant and want to know HOW, I just smile and say "sorry, against company policy to disclose that kind of information".

If they get mad hearing that too mad...I would be more mad if I gave my recipes away and they used it for their own profit.

[Casey]

Most people don't really realize what they're asking, and don't mean to offend or really want specific details, they're just curious. For the very few who persist closer to the line, I don't waste energy getting upset about it, I just become the queen of vague. Where I get my supplies? "some locally and some online, depending" "I taught myself-took years to make a truly good candle-there is alot of info online-google is my friend" "Candlemaking isn't for everyone-try a kit from Micheals to see if you like it before jumping in-why pay for shipping just to find out you don't like it?

[lilahjill]

Personally, to hear folks clam up, be secretive, or bitchy about their recipes or formulas makes me think they need to pull the ornie out of their elitist @$$. Yah I feel you about the money and the experimentation and the value you assign to it. I can understand folks have pride in their work, but remember there are plenty of things and jobs in life where advice, guidance, and formulas are given freely to interested folks in order to expand the collective knowledge and enjoyment of every one. I admire folks who have the confidence to teach others and share what they have learned and I think that in most things, it is these types of people, who lead the way.

More people making soy candles is a good thing, because it grows the awareness and the market for candles. Obviously, there are 300 million people in this country, there isn't a glut for soy candles. IMHO. I would be sick if family members/or friends of mine asked me to teach them to make candles and I didn't because of some lame-ass excuse about being worried that they were looking for a get-rich scheme or that their products wouldn't be as nice as mine. I recognize that there can be extremes to this concept, but I think in practice, that you will be blessed and prosper when you share and sow into others, basic biblical principle.

dan

[Vicky_CO]

Dan I have no idea how long you have been selling or if you are selling. Maybe you have never been burned. A lot of us have and it makes it harder and harder to share when we get burned so often.

Here is a few stories for your and to tell you why I clam up about my stuff now.

A few years ago a friend gave me directions to make a neat little item that I could sell for about $5 very popular with the kids in her area. She felt like she could share because I am all they way across the country she gave me the instruction so I could sell this item. I did my first show with them one spring it was in May by my July shows 6 other people were making and sell the same item. These 6 people were at the May show with me. By the Fall the market had been glutted.

Here is another one. My first 5 years selling I had 4 people follow me around to see what I was selling, next time I would see them they would have similar items in there booths. This get frustrating when you come up with a new idea or a new item you work so hard on to have some one come along and sell a similar item just because you was doing well selling them.

[MissMary]

Not to mention that the tricks of the trade aren't found in books - they are found through experience.

I wouldn't walk up to a glass blower, a skilled home carpenter or a chef and ask them to tell me everything they know.

Every single trade has their secrets. You think that recipe for veggie stew is really the one that a chef uses? No. A true chef never tells. I'm still wishing my grandma would give up the secret to the BBQ brisket she makes that separates like buttah. Or my dad's lasagna. I have the basics, but hell if I can make it taste that good.

You can take classes til the cows come home in anything you want. You can read as much as you want - I spent so much time reading here and I still do - but that does not a good product make alone. There are little things I've never seen here that I do, and I'm sure others do, but that took time.

Giving out this site is about all I'd ever do if asked.

[lilahjill]

yah, I don't have a lotta experience traveling around and selling at shows, and I don't see that as one of my goals. I do work in fields (electrician, kayaker, and raft guide) where experience is everything and there are a ton of tricks of the trade and the competitive economic forces are there to discourage the dissemination of ideas. I guess I carry over my views from these experiences when I speak in glowing terms of master tradesman who believe in the idea of their product/skills and find it to be a life's calling to share the fun.

[Cissy]

Dan

I noticed you just joined this board last month, so I'm assuming you are new at this unless you learned from other sources about candles, soaps, etc.

When and if you ever decide to pursue candlemaking or any other business full time, and your survival depends on the sales of your craft, then you will quickly have a different opinion on sharing your secrets and formulas with nosey, lazy people who could potentially take money out of your pocket by copying you, that is if you are naive enough to give out this info. These people don't have to sell a product to a first-time customer that is equal to the quality of yours. If the customer gets to them first, then you have lost that one sale and the customer might never find out your quality is much better, especially if they are transit customers. If their quality is poor, then they won't get that customer back, but they at least made that one sale that you lost. For those who never intend to or don't need to make money at this, then, I can see why they would be willing to share every detail with others.

[lilahjill]

Lol, of course I pursue other businesses full-time. Which is my point, I am a tradesmen and I make my money through craft/trades; and that in those trades, an electrician and a whitewater guide, there is even greater pressure to not share experiences and "trade secrets", cause of the worry of labor glut and potential de-valuation of specialized skills. And I don't agree when electricians or raft guides that I work with, employ the same practices of knowledge exclusivity, because of an anecdotal worry, that someone is going to take their job or that they are going to lose out. Just cause you don't make a sale or others copy your decision to sell a certain product; shouldn't be some basis for not encouraging others and trying to grow the awareness of soy candles.

[Cissy]

Basically what I'm saying is: Don't give out detailed info to lazy people who can't do some research first. When I became interested in learning about candles, I never asked anyone personally anything. I googled until I found this board, lurked for a while, then when I read enough to learn to ask a half-way sensible question, then the board members were willing to help. I don't wish to help anyone who is lazy and not willing to put in some effort first and just want info handed out to them. Have you joined this board to learn, or just to immediately start complaining? You're really off to a good start with the complaining aspect.

[Cissy]

I just noticed, your 1st of 3 posts was a complaint when it should have been a post asking for or giving advice (if you have any!) pertaining to candlemaking. Even your first post did not reflect a 'biblical' (quote), generous, helpful, nature that you seem to wish to condemn others for not having.

[MissMary]

Just cause you don't make a sale or others copy your decision to sell a certain product; shouldn't be some basis for not encouraging others and trying to grow the awareness of soy candles.

Well, firstly - spreading the knowledge about soy candles doesn't entail sharing the secrets on how to make them, or giving out what cost someone thousands of dollars to get right. You wouldn't just hand over to someone a $2000 check would you? You can go on and on to anyone you want about awareness of the candle (all debates aside), that's one thing - to ask someone exact what wick, wax, suppliers, FO's, containers and/or molds, you are asking someone to hand over their life's work. Especially of those who've been in this as long as I've been alive.

Secondly, there are quite a few people here (I'm not one of them) that depend on this for income.

It IS the basis because eventually, if everyone and their brothers knew the exact information on how to make a candle and could buy a step by step guide of every single tiny bit that's involved, everyone would be doing it because they don't have to put any work into it.

This isn't a get rich quick scheme where you get hand outs on exactly who does what. I've ordered from people here to test against my own and they've been kind and very willing to share their product, but I make it a point when I ask, that I will never ask them what/how of it.

This also isn't like other hobby crafts. You don't glue some wood together and paint it to make a candle like you would an airplane. You don't use a thread and needle to cross stitch a design with a few rosettes. There are literally thousands of combinations that you can use to make a single candle. Forget about adding in different suppliers. I'd easily say there are millions of combinations when you add them in - for a SINGLE candle.

The professions you've listed are predetermined definites. You can't do either one without having a set list of items that every single other person uses. (Such as a guide can't exactly use 30 different things to paddle down the rapids, it's a set oar.)

Here, the possibilities are damn near endless for each and every item that each one of these guys produce. Hell, what one person uses to clean molds is something that 10 other people don't. Or what one person does to stir FO is entirely different than 10 other people, not just a different method, but a different item altogether.

As much as I'd love to be shown the step by step and a list of everyone's everything it's A) rude, and it undermines everyone else's work that they put in so much to.

[CareBear]

This is a place of sharing. We expect GIVE along with the TAKE. And what's more we expect people to learn for themselves. So we give guidance where we can by sharing our own experiences.

What this is NOT is a place of TAKING. Selfishness is not supported here. Nor, is laziness - but not necessarily cause we don't appreciate lazy people (god knows I'm lazy) but because we support learning and the only way to learn in large part is to try. Besides - once you try something, YOU get to share what you've learned back with us. Many "newbies" try unconventional things and that can give us all new ideas.

When I was new here, not that long ago, I asked for too much and was gently (ok, not always gently) told to try some things for myself and see what happened. Finally I got the hint and did so. Then I came back and reported and THEN asked questions about why and what-if, and how... and those questions were respected much more.

As for giving my help away - I'm always happy to guide. But don't ask me to come tell you how to make that prize winning product cause the nitty-gritty is YOUR job. I HAVE given recipes to folks who are struggling or even some to people who just admire them. And others have shared freely with me. But that's within a COMMUNITY of folks here. Someone just comes in and expects to be handed stuff without doing their own work??? Different story altogether.

Geesh, guess I have strong feelings on this issue.

[Chickie1st]

[attach]13716[/attach]

Well said