Who has ever been sued?

[gottabt]

I just wanted to add that I do have insurance. I put warning labels on everything. I also have a clause in my wholesale agreement that states that my warning labels are not to be removed. Since they have my contact information on them I can see this happening. I simply explain that this is a requirement of my insurance policy. My insurance is about 900 a year and I did not sell one candle - even to friends and family until that insurance was in place.

I do remember that thread about the chandler getting sued and she did have insurance. If memory serves, the customer left the candle burning and left the house. It got very hot and broke. It caused the piece of furniture that it was sitting on to also ignite. I really wish we could find the outcome of the story. I think that it has been raised a couple of times but no one ever knew anything.

I guess it is personal preference but I have met some pretty dumb people and you never know what they are capable of. Could you imagine if someone went to bed with a candle burning and someone died? Do not think that for a moment that they will go after the candle maker, the smoke detector people (if there were any) the building code enforcement people and anyone else they could think of. I guess you have figured out on which side of this issue I fall. I will get off my soapbox now.

[RobinInOR]

We just had that happen this last week

http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2007/0321/local/stories/murphy_fire_deaths.htm

Three girls died. Can you imagine?

[firegirl]

Hmmm.. I am sticking with the insurance... the soap makers guild provides it at a very reasonable price.. worth its weight in gold!!

[doris]

We just had that happen this last week

http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2007/0321/local/stories/murphy_fire_deaths.htm

Three girls died. Can you imagine?

As sad as that was, there is no indication that it was the candlemaker's fault. Why would anyone allow three kids that age to have a candle at a sleepover?

We just recently had a fire in our town, someone was making fries in a pan of hot oil and left it on the stove while she went out of the room for a few minutes. We've all been told a million times about this, but people still do it. I can't imagine that the frying oil company or the stove company would be sued. Why would a candlemaker? This person did something really stupid, and while losing your house is an extremely high price to pay for being stupid, it was no one's fault but her own.

Those poor families, though. I can't imagine losing a daughter.

[sockmonkey]

It's easy to say someone is stupid for leaving a candle burning while they sleep, or when they leave the house. But, like with many products, it is always a consideration that there were contributing factors, such as the candle maker using a wick that was not of the appropriate size which may cause a candle to burn too hot and glass to explode. It could be that fragrance oils were not properly mixed in the wax and a pocket of highly flammable oils ignited.

Regarding the example of the pan of hot oil and french fries catching the house on fire, yes, the manufacturer of the pan could be sued if it could be determined the pan was not made of a material heavy enough for it to be used for its intended purpose; or if their was a defect in its manufacture that allowed hairline cracks to develop which allowed oil to drip into the fire, resulting in an inferno. The stove maker could be sued if the model in question allowed sudden extreme fluctuations in temperature that caused the oil to become super heated and boil over into flames.

There forenesic experts who make their living determining those kinds of facts when things are not necessarily as they would appear to the untrained eye.

[doris]

Regarding the example of the pan of hot oil and french fries catching the house on fire, yes, the manufacturer of the pan could be sued if it could be determined the pan was not made of a material heavy enough for it to be used for its intended purpose; or if their was a defect in its manufacture that allowed hairline cracks to develop which allowed oil to drip into the fire, resulting in an inferno. The stove maker could be sued if the model in question allowed sudden extreme fluctuations in temperature that caused the oil to become super heated and boil over into flames.

Doesn't the consumer have ANY responsibility? I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but I have never seen any pan sold for the purpose of filling it with oil and putting it on the stove and leaving it. All manufacturers have a responsibility; however they should not be expected to be responsible for incorrect usage by a consumer. The candle set curtains on fire; likely the candle was near some blowing curtains. The pan caught on fire while the woman was out of the room; I have known since I was kid, and I am now 50, that you DO NOT EVER leave an unattended pot of fat on the stove. In fact, aside from soapmaking, where the temps never get very high, and the very occasional pot of sausages or bacon, we never have fat on the stove. I am that scared of overheated fat that if we ever decide to deep fry again, I'll buy a deep fryer.

I know how important it is to produce a safe product and to test etc., but the safest candle on earth is going to be a fire hazard if it is used incorrectly. All I'm saying is that it is high time that consumers started being responsible for what they do, and stop sueing everybody for their own stupidity. I've seldom heard of a candle maker being sued, but it only takes one or two really messy cases to make everyone's life a misery.

[Holly]

Doesn't the consumer have ANY responsibility? I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but I have never seen any pan sold for the purpose of filling it with oil and putting it on the stove and leaving it. All manufacturers have a responsibility; however they should not be expected to be responsible for incorrect usage by a consumer. The candle set curtains on fire; likely the candle was near some blowing curtains. The pan caught on fire while the woman was out of the room; I have known since I was kid, and I am now 50, that you DO NOT EVER leave an unattended pot of fat on the stove. In fact, aside from soapmaking, where the temps never get very high, and the very occasional pot of sausages or bacon, we never have fat on the stove. I am that scared of overheated fat that if we ever decide to deep fry again, I'll buy a deep fryer.

I know how important it is to produce a safe product and to test etc., but the safest candle on earth is going to be a fire hazard if it is used incorrectly. All I'm saying is that it is high time that consumers started being responsible for what they do, and stop sueing everybody for their own stupidity. I've seldom heard of a candle maker being sued, but it only takes one or two really messy cases to make everyone's life a misery.

I agree and have made sure to have proper insurance because of sue happy people. What Sockmockey has said regarding product defect has a lot of truth to it too, but I am sure a lot of cases happen from consumer incorrect use.

[sockmonkey]

Sadly, because of lawsuits and the way things are today, manufacturers have to take into consideration the misuse, or potential misuse of their products when they design them.

It's just like the caution labels on blowdryers--"Do not use while bathing." Who in their right mind would do that? Obviously, someone did and that's why you see that warning label on every blowdryer on the market today.

The point is, that insurance is necessary if you think about selling to the public because if anything can go wrong, the consumer will look to you for compensation, even if it's due to their own foolishness. A money hungry lawyer, or a defiant insurance company will find ways to prove your materials or your process was faulty, or you didn't adequately warn the consumer against improper usage.

Should people take responsibility for their own actions? Absolutely, but if there is a chance a buck can be made off of a tragedy, there will always be someone willing take advantage of the situation.

I've got a friend in the construction business who does a lot of restoration work to homes that were damaged due to fire. In the majority of the burned homes he works on, they are due to grease fires. He told me it amazes him the number of people who leave pans of grease on the stove, and he wonders how many times people do it and it's actually arson, because they dream of remodeling or getting some quick insurance cash, but it always is reported as an accidental grease fire. Like he says, "there's no law against being stupid."

[doris]

"there's no law against being stupid."

Pity!

[Mei-Mei]

Sadly, because of lawsuits and the way things are today, manufacturers have to take into consideration the misuse, or potential misuse of their products when they design them.

It's just like the caution labels on blowdryers--"Do not use while bathing." Who in their right mind would do that? Obviously, someone did and that's why you see that warning label on every blowdryer on the market today.

The point is, that insurance is necessary if you think about selling to the public because if anything can go wrong, the consumer will look to you for compensation, even if it's due to their own foolishness. A money hungry lawyer, or a defiant insurance company will find ways to prove your materials or your process was faulty, or you didn't adequately warn the consumer against improper usage.

Should people take responsibility for their own actions? Absolutely, but if there is a chance a buck can be made off of a tragedy, there will always be someone willing take advantage of the situation.

I've got a friend in the construction business who does a lot of restoration work to homes that were damaged due to fire. In the majority of the burned homes he works on, they are due to grease fires. He told me it amazes him the number of people who leave pans of grease on the stove, and he wonders how many times people do it and it's actually arson, because they dream of remodeling or getting some quick insurance cash, but it always is reported as an accidental grease fire. Like he says, "there's no law against being stupid."

Very good post. As I've mentioned before I had a friend of mine mention that she left a candle that I'd given her burning in her living room while she went to the grocery store. Nothing happened, but I had nightmares about it.:undecided

For me insurance is peace of mind. My husband has always had his own business with lots of insurance and the first thing we did when I started my business was to get another policy.

[Vio]

This is an old thread, but just found it in a search for candle pans. LOL

This interests me, because one day I might want to sell my candles. I'm not planning it, but if God willing, it could be great.

My question: If you use a receipt pad (that leaves a copy of buyer signature, with them acknowledging they read the release)with a release of liability on it, saying something like "use this candle at your own risk, do not remove warning label", I wonder if that would be sufficient enough?

[kimmeroo]

Hmmmm...that is a good idea..I am waiting for a phone call as we speak from my Ins. agent,I will ask him if that is a consideraion or not!!

I will re-post when I find out! i live in NY! I don't know if the results would be the same in Maine or not!?!

Kimmeroo

[Vio]

Thanks kimmeroo. Was just curious if I ever had to think about it.

[chauntelle]

i find it really sad that anyone could sue someone and ruin someones life like that when they were obviously the one that was irresponsible enough to use a candle against the warnings that we issue !

A man in my town died last week from a house fire, started from a cigarette!

I doubt that anyone sued the manufacturers of the cigarette that started the fire!! In my eyes its the same as using a candle... burn it wrong and you'll suffer the consequences!

[Karen B]

This is an old thread, but just found it in a search for candle pans. LOL

This interests me, because one day I might want to sell my candles. I'm not planning it, but if God willing, it could be great.

My question: If you use a receipt pad (that leaves a copy of buyer signature, with them acknowledging they read the release)with a release of liability on it, saying something like "use this candle at your own risk, do not remove warning label", I wonder if that would be sufficient enough?

I doubt that would really work, plus anyone can sue anyone for any reason. I could claim I bought one of your candles and burned my house down. Now all of a sudden you have to get a lawyer just to show the courts I didn't really even buy a candle from you. KWIM Insurance will give you a lawyer, and you don't want to show up in court without one. Soapers Guild and according to soapers guild Indie beauty network does too. (don't need to make soap to get the insurance from indie)

hth,

Karen B

[Beth-VT]

Wow. Just curious...do you know which home owners insurance that customer had?

Doesn't really matter, as any insurance company will do the same.

If you own a home, a car, a retirement account, or as Di said future earnings, they can be at risk. At least with insurance you have someone that represents you, the insurance company should provide attorneys as well.

Labels do not excuse you from liability, whether you are at fault or not.

[schmoopie]

IMHO.... the only way you are safe is to be at least an LLC..... and carry insurance.

We pay $430 a year for 2 mill. liability...... but alot more is covered too.....

Don't be a fool..... find a good accountant and LLC yourselves.... protect what is yours!!!

[Vio]

Good advice. Something to consider if I ever do decide to sell anything in the not so near future. LOL

[Late Night]

This is an old thread, but just found it in a search for candle pans. LOL

This interests me, because one day I might want to sell my candles. I'm not planning it, but if God willing, it could be great.

My question: If you use a receipt pad (that leaves a copy of buyer signature, with them acknowledging they read the release)with a release of liability on it, saying something like "use this candle at your own risk, do not remove warning label", I wonder if that would be sufficient enough?

Just because you say you aren't responsible doesn't mean a thing legally. What if a defective product is your fault? I can't imagine signing my name to a disclaimer to buy a candle. What about internet sales? How could they sign over the internet? Also, what if you put your warning label on the bottom of the jar and someone wants to use a candle warmer? You told them not to remove the label! That could really catch on fire. Nope, I'd never sell something that is on fire without insurance.

[Vio]

I see the point. And it's a valid and good point. I haven't even made my first candle yet, but when I ran across this thread, I realized insurance is something that shouldn't be skipped, if I ever decided to sell down the road.

Thanks for the advice. It makes a lot of sense to not take chances.

Wow, Candle Cauldron has some great advice on this subject.

http://www.candlecauldron.com/insurance.html

4. Ask for the proper coverage. You need General Liability as well as Product Liability. So many candlemakers out there only have General but no Product, and that is not going to cover you in the case of a faulty product claim.

[HeavenScentU]

I have one question....If someone burns one of my candles in their home and the home is a big blaze then wouldn't the candle burn beyond recognition because that was the hottest spot? Then how could I prove that my label was on the candle? Even if I explain to each and every customer how to properly burn a candle it doesn't mean they are going to burn it properly. I have spoken to quite a few insurance agents and they just tell me to make sure I have the same info. on my labels as the name brand candles because lawyers make sure the labels have the necessary information.

[socoolsoap]

IMHO.... the only way you are safe is to be at least an LLC..... and carry insurance.

We pay $430 a year for 2 mill. liability...... but alot more is covered too.....

Don't be a fool..... find a good accountant and LLC yourselves.... protect what is yours!!!

This is not true. An LLC will NOT protect when/if you are sued.

Here's some info to read:

http://seartech.blogspot.com/2007/06/perhaps-last-thing-you-should-worry.html

[socoolsoap]

I hit reply too quickly.

Just because you have an LLC, does NOT mean you cannot get sued personally. There's a lot to an LLC and it's best to ask a lawyer, but you could still lose your personal assets even though you have an LLC. Ther are loopholes in everything. :undecided

[TxSioux]

I have one question....If someone burns one of my candles in their home and the home is a big blaze then wouldn't the candle burn beyond recognition because that was the hottest spot?

I've had thoughts along this same line ... if a house burns & the source is cited from a candle, how can someone even 'reasonably' prove who manufactured the demon candle? In theory, you'd be pretty stupid not to try & blame one of the 'big dogs' that are insured to the hilt, instead of a local crafter. I know 2 Fire Inspectors for Farm Bureau Ins & have seen a few cases where candles were to blame. 1) a candle was placed in a window & (you guessed it) the window dressing took off like a torch ... no doubt the owner of the house was an idiot, but why not sue Levelor for not manufacturing a window dressing suitable for the possible misuse of a candle? 2) a candle was placed on a shelf, & after burning into the upper wood shelf, it ignited towels ... another idiot, but how about suing the home builder, for not being responsible enough to warn that candles may set wood on fire? 3) a candle is placed on a crocheted doily, atop a wood table ... the family cat jumps on the table, gets spooked, & jumps off the table ... this causes the candle to fall to the floor, the carpet ignites & burns the house to the ground ... geez, was it a defective cat or carpet to blame? I swear, these were actual cases & you can bet your life Farm Bureau went after someone, cause all 3 of those homeowners were given checks for their loses. So, if you're unfortunate enough to be the guilty candle manufacturer, you're not going to court against the idiot customers, you're going to battle w/ a giant Insurance Company trying to recoup their loss. Guess who's going to win? It's easy to sit in your kitchen making a great candle, but the reality of what you're selling is VERY scary!! It all sounds really stupid, but it happened. We live in a time where the truth is rarely found in a courtroom. You just can't test enough, or buy enough insurance!!

Susan.

[TeriM]

I've had thoughts along this same line ... if a house burns & the source is cited from a candle, how can someone even 'reasonably' prove who manufactured the demon candle? In theory, you'd be pretty stupid not to try & blame one of the 'big dogs' that are insured to the hilt, instead of a local crafter. I know 2 Fire Inspectors for Farm Bureau Ins & have seen a few cases where candles were to blame. 1) a candle was placed in a window & (you guessed it) the window dressing took off like a torch ... no doubt the owner of the house was an idiot, but why not sue Levelor for not manufacturing a window dressing suitable for the possible misuse of a candle? 2) a candle was placed on a shelf, & after burning into the upper wood shelf, it ignited towels ... another idiot, but how about suing the home builder, for not being responsible enough to warn that candles may set wood on fire? 3) a candle is placed on a crocheted doily, atop a wood table ... the family cat jumps on the table, gets spooked, & jumps off the table ... this causes the candle to fall to the floor, the carpet ignites & burns the house to the ground ... geez, was it a defective cat or carpet to blame? I swear, these were actual cases & you can bet your life Farm Bureau went after someone, cause all 3 of those homeowners were given checks for their loses. So, if you're unfortunate enough to be the guilty candle manufacturer, you're not going to court against the idiot customers, you're going to battle w/ a giant Insurance Company trying to recoup their loss. Guess who's going to win? It's easy to sit in your kitchen making a great candle, but the reality of what you're selling is VERY scary!! It all sounds really stupid, but it happened. We live in a time where the truth is rarely found in a courtroom. You just can't test enough, or buy enough insurance!!

Susan.

your right... in all the above cases the homeowners should have been given a check - fire is a covered cause of loss no matter how it happens - unless of course they prove arsen.

now - the insurance company going after the candle maker... I seriously doubt it - they will look into the cause and if the candle exploded or something then maybe yes.. but just to go after them to recoup their loss - no.... I'm an insurance agent.. have worked on the company side/as an adjuster.. and now at an agency

there are other reasons to have insurance even if you don't sell right now - not sure about the rest of you but I have a lot of money tied up in supplies and sure would like to have that money if I had a loss at my home - your not going to have coverage under your homeowners for anything that is business related. Now I'm not saying that if your house burns down the company is going to ask you what was in it... but I'd sure like the additional.. !!!!

TeriM