C3 and 464--issues with both?

[ellajoan]

Long time 464 user here, but thinking about playing with C-3, especially with all of the 464 issues as of late.  There's just no consistency from batch to batch, and we've probably gone through 1000 lbs of it since summer.  Recently lost an account b/c they said the HT wasn't good.  I have no way of knowing if that's true--our testers are all good, but perhaps that batch was not?  Just re-thinking things--I want to keep our small business going and viable.

 

Wondering if C-3 users are having the same issues with soy lately?  What are the biggest differences b/t the two?  Pouring temps, I'd assume?  Does C-3 require Vybar or USA?  Does it work with UV Resistor, too?  I know we'd have to re-wick everything (we love premiers in 464, not sure if they'd work in C-3).  I own a few candles I suspect are made with C-3 (the telltale bubbles) and the throw on those are quite good.  

[TallTayl]

C3 has been pretty stable in my cases for the last year or so since I’ve really started paying attention. 

 

i tested with and without USA and find that so long as the wick is not overly hot the candles cool after burning quite smoothly. USA made the wicking a bit more challenging, and was not needed. Overwicking gives that ugly flaky crust look and discoloration with no other throw benefits. 

 

eco have worked the best in mine, while others here have liked cotton core. Give your premier a shot. They may work just fine.

 

overall C3 needs to be wicked hotter than 464, which is a very good thing for throw IMO. Most of my fragrances need that jolt of energy to fill a room. 

 

C3 has an odd aroma while heating.  It does not like to be overheated in the melter. I get nasty fryolator hints from it. That’s probably my biggest complaint about it. I have smelled that undertone in finished candles in the last. 

 

The biggest issue is pouring temp, like all soy.  Found it needs to cool to about 105 to ensure a smooth top and zero cavities. The supporting ingredients can trap little air bubbles if stirring to vigorously. A heat gun fixes that no problemo.  If using glass, warming the jars has given great adhesion. Tins I don’t bother to warm since wet spots won’t show. 

 

I’ve read great things about c1, too.  C1 is veggie though not just soy, but reportedly throws amazing - better than C3. Sets up uglier, but pretty is as pretty does. 

[GoldieMN]

3 hours ago, TallTayl said:

I have smelled that undertone in finished candles in the last. 

 

 

Just to understand this, you are saying that smell is in your finished candles?  Doesn't that turn off customers?  What does "in the last" mean?  

GoldieMN

[TallTayl]

I can smell it because I know it’s there. Nobody else has ever said anything. It’s just offputting to me.

[ellajoan]

Thanks TallTayl.  I have not heard of C1, so now I'll have to research that one, as well.  I am definitely curious about Palm, and a palm/soy blend might be fun (crazy what I refer to as "fun" these days.).  I was also considering Clarus 3022 at one point, but the customer base over here is pretty set against paraffin.  Also the price point on that wax is a lot higher.  Although most of them are using paraffin in the "soy blend" candles and don't know it...a bone of contention for me. 

[Laura C]

4 hours ago, ellajoan said:

There's just no consistency from batch to batch, and we've probably gone through 1000 lbs of it since summer.  Recently lost an account b/c they said the HT wasn't good.  I have no way of knowing if that's true--our testers are all good, but perhaps that batch was not?  Just re-thinking things--I want to keep our small business going and viable.

 

Geez, I hate to hear that, that's horrible. I've concluded, this is a bad time to be getting into the candle business. LOL.

[TallTayl]

I have used paraffin with C3 and it was fine, I just don’t love working with paraffin. C3 does ok with coconut too. 

 

I’m super curious about c1. Nobody in the Midwest asks about palm, so there’s no immediate bias against it. 

[GoldieMN]

5 hours ago, ellajoan said:

 Recently lost an account b/c they said the HT wasn't good. 

Oh my!  So sorry to hear that.  I have a box of C3 I plan to start testing as soon as my last sale is over.  I may be switching to wide-mouth canning jars as well.  Might as well test wicks with new jar at the same time as new wax.

GoldieMN

[birdcharm]

9 hours ago, ellajoan said:

Does C-3 require Vybar or USA? 

 

Are you using these additives with GW464?

[ellajoan]

@birdcharm, no.  It was my understanding that 464 already had some additives in it.

[SeriouslyWicked]

Hi, my name is Shirley and I live in Edinburgh, Scotland.  I have been making candles for about two years now.  I do not run a business it is purely a hobby.  Also I only use cans. I normally use C3 but have recently started using 464 (which is possibly why this post popped up on my internet search - always trawling for information!) I tried Vybar in C3 and it was a complete disaster.  Every candle I made had sink holes around the wick and set-up very poorly with lumpy tops.  I despatched it to a small drawer, which I hope never to open again!. I have had no problems with 464, it has a fabulous scent throw and always sets up beautifully as does C3.  I believe ellajoan is right that 464 has some additives already.  C3 certainly requires wicking up a little.  I don't recognise the wicks you are talking about here.  I use TB and CL wicks.  Also C3 takes a max of 8% FO but 464 will take up to 10% to get pretty much the same HST.  I never overheat either wax, despite there being some advice about heating them quite high but that could have everything to do with how cold it is here most of the time.  Anyway, I just came on to say hello and put my two penn'orth in.  

[birdcharm]

5 hours ago, ellajoan said:

@birdcharm, no.  It was my understanding that 464 already had some additives in it.

 

I was just double-checking to make sure based on your vybar question. 

 

I think parasoy does throw scent a bit better, but don't soy candles typically last longer?  I think they may, so in that case, some people are going to prefer the vegetable wax, as to some, it's more important to them to spend their money on a candle that lasts longer rather than smells more -- I think the account you lost is foolish in their thinking and they should offer both types.

 

[kandlekrazy]

I think the C3 has stabilized over the past year which makes me think soy has in general but that doesn't explain the 464 still having issues batch to batch.  I've tried and didn't like the C1 for containers, it might make a great wax for tins, it's a harder wax for sure.  I guess I didn't want to take the time to make C1 work for me.  General Wax at one time considered discontinuing C1 because they said they weren't getting repeat sales, but that's been years ago and I still saw it recently on their candle supply site.  I'm convinced it's just a preference thing because some have great luck with 464 and I didn't like any of those GB waxes at all. 

[TallTayl]

I just bought a case of c1 to test out.  So curious. Which palm wax could it be? There is a non crystallizing palm wax out there, but I’ve not found it for retail sale in the US. 

[ellajoan]

@TallTayl, keep us posted as to how the C1 works out for you.  

[TallTayl]

11 hours ago, ellajoan said:

@TallTayl, keep us posted as to how the C1 works out for you.  

Will do.

 

[birdcharm]

23 hours ago, SeriouslyWicked said:

Hi, my name is Shirley and I live in Edinburgh, Scotland.  I have been making candles for about two years now.  I do not run a business it is purely a hobby.  Also I only use cans. I normally use C3 but have recently started using 464 (which is possibly why this post popped up on my internet search - always trawling for information!) I tried Vybar in C3 and it was a complete disaster.  Every candle I made had sink holes around the wick and set-up very poorly with lumpy tops.  I despatched it to a small drawer, which I hope never to open again!. I have had no problems with 464, it has a fabulous scent throw and always sets up beautifully as does C3.  I believe ellajoan is right that 464 has some additives already.  C3 certainly requires wicking up a little.  I don't recognise the wicks you are talking about here.  I use TB and CL wicks.  Also C3 takes a max of 8% FO but 464 will take up to 10% to get pretty much the same HST.  I never overheat either wax, despite there being some advice about heating them quite high but that could have everything to do with how cold it is here most of the time.  Anyway, I just came on to say hello and put my two penn'orth in.  

 

Hi Shirley,

I just wanted to say that I think you should venture into that drawer and see what you might be able to do with that wax ... be brave!  The thing with vybar is that it is a synthetic, so it's probably not best to add it to soy (even if it's the one suited for lower meltpoint wax) -- I haven't used C3, so I don't know if you add paraffin to that, but if you can, it would probably be worth it to tear that candle apart for a remelt and add some paraffin wax.  You may have easily added too much vybar to the wax even if it had been paraffin, as vybar should only be used in extremely small amounts.  Ha-ha ... I'm a big fan of cans too!  😊