Pouring Temperature Mysteries

[Quentin]

On 11/9/2018 at 2:03 PM, Forrest said:

The second thing is that you should stir the wax well before adding the FO to make sure all of the components in the wax are blended.

Other than a visual observation, how would I determine that?

[Forrest]

9 hours ago, Quentin said:

Other than a visual observation, how would I determine that?

You can't, that's the fun part of candle making. 

[Forrest]

10 hours ago, Quentin said:

 I see now that you were talking about good old-fashioned troubleshooting        

Exactly! With candles wicks and FO are always variables so we need to eliminate all other variables.  

[Simon-RSA]

On ‎10‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 6:42 PM, Quentin said:

I have had these question in the back of my mind and keep forgetting to post them. When I've been instructed to add fragrance at xxx degrees, I've noticed that there is an immediate drop in the temperature of the mix. Sometimes a dramatic drop. Often dipping below the pouring temp. range. I know WHY that is happening, but not sure what to do about it.

 

Do I just keep stirring for two minutes or so and pour regardless of the what the thermometer tells me, or do I need to raise the heat back up to the pouring temperature? The other question is similar. As I'm pouring from the pot to the mold or container, the temperature obviously starts to drop. Do I stop pouring and heat it back up again or just pour till I'm finished?  

 

The only information I've found that is even slightly related to this subject has been something to this effect: "Never put the pot back on the heat source and leave it while you're working. This could cause your fragrance to "dissipate".    I'm not buying THAT idea. If that were true, you would never be able to reheat your wax for the second pour!  You could never save any leftover wax to use on another project. I think the candle making hobby/business is full of folklore and anecdote that has been passed down from generation to generation and accepted as truth but never checked out by many of us. What IS the answer to my two questions?  This makes me wonder about the consistency of the product I'm producing. Calgon, take me awaaayyyyyyy... 

wax temperature,  will decrease typically 5 degC, immediately after adding cold FO. If you know your pouring temp, heat wax to 1within 5 - 10 degC  of target pour temp, add FO and stir. Pour when you hit your target temp. Adjust temps as required (yes heat or cool as required).  Temperature is the most important condition to satisfy. Here is a general rule that works: Wax congealing Point (A) + ambient room temp (B) = T1. Calculate the value (A) - (B) = T2.   Now add T1 + T2 = T3. T3 is then be your wax melting point target. Be sure to compare and adjust to manufactures recommendations.  Add FO around 10 degC above your pouring temp.  You will find a lot of consistency built into your process. It takes care of the various temperature differentials.  Try it and let me know if this works for you.

[Arch Rock]

On 11/15/2018 at 10:34 AM, Forrest said:

You are correct, my degree is in electrical engineering, but I work as a systems engineer at NASA. I'll use your example for Model 1, suppose you wanted to offer that model in another FO. You would make the candle and do a test burn, it might work or you might need a different wick. Once you got the wicking right you would be able to tell if your HT was good, and if it was you would add the candle to your line. But let's suppose when you made the candle you changed something in your process, say reduced stirring time, and the candle had poor HT. How would you know if it was the FO or the process that was the problem. You can only test for one variable at a time. That is why I say you have to fix your process. Once you have a set process, container, and wax any problems are due to FO or wicking, It is my nature to try and turn this into an exact science, even though I know I never will.

The Scientific Method never fails.  If I get a new child client with ADHD, I encourage parents not to start him/her on a medication until I treat them with therapeutic play for six weeks.  If they start the medication at the same time they enter play therapy, we'll never know if it was the medication or the therapy that decreased symptoms of impulsivity and lack of focus.

[Quentin]

15 hours ago, Simon-RSA said:

Here is a general rule that works: Wax congealing Point (A) + ambient room temp (B) = T1. Calculate the value (A) - (B) = T2.   Now add T1 + T2 = T3. T3 is then be your wax melting point target. Be sure to compare and adjust to manufactures recommendations.  Add FO around 10 degC above your pouring temp.  You will find a lot of consistency built into your process. It takes care of the various temperature differentials.  Try it and let me know if this works for you.

This is something with some real substance here. I'm the type that likes to have an instruction sheet or an owner's manual. I'm also the type that actually reads them and follows them step by step. I start by ripping out the parts written in foreign languages. That immediately makes the task seem much less formidable. I'll do the same with what you just gave me. This is one I'll print off and use. I might even laminate it. 

[Quentin]

17 hours ago, Simon-RSA said:

wax temperature,  will decrease typically 5 degC, immediately after adding cold FO. If you know your pouring temp, heat wax to 1within 5 - 10 degC  of target pour temp, add FO and stir. Pour when you hit your target temp. Adjust temps as required (yes heat or cool as required).  Temperature is the most important condition to satisfy. Here is a general rule that works: Wax congealing Point (A) + ambient room temp (B) = T1. Calculate the value (A) - (B) = T2.   Now add T1 + T2 = T3. T3 is then be your wax melting point target. Be sure to compare and adjust to manufactures recommendations.  Add FO around 10 degC above your pouring temp.  You will find a lot of consistency built into your process. It takes care of the various temperature differentials.  Try it and let me know if this works for you.

This makes sense, but I've been told here and read elsewhere to make sure you heat your wax to somewhere around 185-190 F and then to add the FO and the dye. Are you saying here to throw that general principal out the window? Perhaps I took the 185-190 F rule to apply across the board when I shouldn't have. One wax in particular that I use is IGI 6028 Single Pour Votive/Pillar blend. A "hybrid" is term the seller uses, I think.  Information on this wax is pretty sparse. I've inquired with IGI but they've yet to respond. The only guidelines are those I've gotten from the vendor. They say heat that particular wax to 200-210F and pour at 200! When I've poured it at that temp, it is so hot that it melts the sealing putty on the mold and the wax pours out of the wick hole. One day I decided to throw caution to the wind and didn't pour it till it was around 150F. The wax still found its way through the putty. Things like this may have been what you were referring to when you said:  "Be sure to compare and adjust to manufactures recommendations".

[TallTayl]

Try the metal heat ducting or car exhaust tape for sealing pillar molds.  (Not duct tape).

 

The metal Tape meant for hot pipes holds much better at high temps. Really burnish It down, though, to ensure a tight seal. 

[Quentin]

17 hours ago, TallTayl said:

Try the metal heat ducting or car exhaust tape for sealing pillar molds.  (Not duct tape).

 

The metal Tape meant for hot pipes holds much better at high temps. Really burnish It down, though, to ensure a tight seal. 

Well now. Why didn't I think of that? That will probably take care of those problematic high temp waxes like the IGI 6028 I mentioned. I'm going to make a couple of assumptions from your suggestion. 1) Ditch the putty completely and just use the high heat tape with that wax, since it will go through the putty anyway. 2) When you say "burnish" it down you're saying rub it down really nice and flat over the 1/2 inch of wick that protrudes through the hole. 

[TallTayl]

Yes and yes.  If your wax is particularly liquidy you may want to make a cross out of the tape. Experiment with how much or little you need. It change my life not having to deal with putty or screws.

[Quentin]

On 11/18/2018 at 7:08 AM, Arch Rock said:

If I get a new child client with ADHD, I encourage parents not to start him/her on a medication until I treat them with therapeutic play for six weeks. 

That is definitely wise. My psychiatrist irritates me sometime because he will never change but one drug at a time. I know he's right. As the patient though, that waiting period can be sheer agony. Then if that still doesn't work, I end up facing another waiting period.  I just made two test candles following the advice that @Forrest gave.  As a candle patient in the candle maker's hospital, mustering the patience to wait for the two weeks I've set as my standard curing time drives me up the wall. I just have to find something else to do in the meantime. It's so tempting to break my own rules and just sneak across the room, light up the test candles and see what happens. After all, no one would ever know.

[Forrest]

13 minutes ago, Quentin said:

As a candle patient in the candle maker's hospital, mustering the patience to wait for the two weeks I've set as my standard curing time drives me up the wall. I just have to find something else to do in the meantime. It's so tempting to break my own rules and just sneak across the room, light up the test candles and see what happens. After all, no one would ever know

That is the hardest part. I always get bummed out when I think it's been two weeks and I look at the date and it has only been one.

[TallTayl]

That is where tea lights come in handy. Light one early to satisfy the craving to set something on fire. 

[Sebleo]

20 minutes ago, TallTayl said:

That is where tea lights come in handy. Light one early to satisfy the craving to set something on fire. 

 

This!! I always make extra testers of whatever I am making so I can light one up early!!  I know it is wasting product. But, I would end up wasting product anyway when I light up early and then I’ve also wasted time because I have to make a new one to retest at the right time! 

[TallTayl]

Just now, Sebleo said:

 

This!! I always make extra testers of whatever I am making so I can light one up early!!  I know it is wasting product. But, I would end up wasting product anyway when I light up early and then I’ve also wasted time because I have to make a new one to retest at the right time! 

Totally not a waste if you get some enjoyment from it. Bonus that it scratches the itch. 

[Quentin]

On 11/19/2018 at 11:43 AM, Forrest said:

That is the hardest part. I always get bummed out when I think it's been two weeks and I look at the date and it has only been one.

I'm just glad I didn't randomly pick 4 weeks as my curing time! I alway put them in their own box along with all the notes, put a date sticker on the box (always lined up perfectly) then put them in a closet. That's how I avoid the temptation to burn them early. The intimidating sticker says: ! Do Not Burn Before xx/xx/2018  I spend more time doing stuff like that than I do actually making candles. 

[Forrest]

3 hours ago, Quentin said:

I'm just glad I didn't randomly pick 4 weeks as my curing time! I alway put them in their own box along with all the notes, put a date sticker on the box (always lined up perfectly) then put them in a closet. That's how I avoid the temptation to burn them early. The intimidating sticker says: ! Do Not Burn Before xx/xx/2018  I spend more time doing stuff like that than I do actually making candles. 

I'm going with six to twelve months as my new cure time for candles, but I'll be making melts to get me over the through until I can get some candles cured. I'll still use two weeks for testing purposes.

[Laura C]

On 11/22/2018 at 11:14 AM, Quentin said:

 I spend more time doing stuff like that than I do actually making candles. 

 

I know, right? I do too. LOL

I keep saying I need an assistant. LOL

Edited December 7, 2018 by Laura C

[Quentin]

10 minutes ago, Laura C said:

 

I know, right? I do too. LOL

I keep saying I need an assistant. LOL

My redundancy is becoming very redundant.

[Quentin]

On 11/17/2018 at 8:47 PM, Simon-RSA said:

wax temperature,  will decrease typically 5 degC, immediately after adding cold FO. If you know your pouring temp, heat wax to 1within 5 - 10 degC  of target pour temp, add FO and stir. Pour when you hit your target temp. Adjust temps as required (yes heat or cool as required).  Temperature is the most important condition to satisfy. Here is a general rule that works: Wax congealing Point (A) + ambient room temp (B) = T1. Calculate the value (A) - (B) = T2.   Now add T1 + T2 = T3. T3 is then be your wax melting point target. Be sure to compare and adjust to manufactures recommendations.  Add FO around 10 degC above your pouring temp.  You will find a lot of consistency built into your process. It takes care of the various temperature differentials.  Try it and let me know if this works for you.

@Simon-RSA I promised I would try your formula and get back to you. I haven't poured a single candle since this discussion, so I'm sorry I'm late getting back to you. I was getting ready to pour some candle tomorrow, pulled out the copy of your formula and started to plug in my numbers. Then I noticed a couple of things I needed to clear up before I proceeded. I'm going to ask the the stupid question first and get that one out of the way. I noticed your temperature references are in Celsius. I'm a Fahrenheit guy. 1) Am I assuming correctly that I can use Fahrenheit just as long as I use it all the way through to be consistent?  2) When you said "Add FO around 10 degC above your pouring temp", did you also mean to use the pouring temperature range prescribed in the wax specifications or were you saying to use 10 degrees above your "wax melting point target" as the pouring temperature? I'm sorry to bother you with these questions and I know that others are reading this that will remind me that I'm the overthinker. I know that is true. I just like to make sure I have everything clear in my mind before I proceed with things. In fact, I'm really excited to try your formula.

[Quentin]

On 11/19/2018 at 10:22 AM, TallTayl said:

Yes and yes.  If your wax is particularly liquidy you may want to make a cross out of the tape. Experiment with how much or little you need. It change my life not having to deal with putty or screws.

Oh. Oh. By the way, I tried your suggestion to use the "high temperature" tape and it worked perfectly. I'm probably through with the putty forever. The funny thing is that I had a roll of the stuff on the shelf above my work bench all the time!