Scary Candle Situation from Customer...

[Glassfishy]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I am going to power burn a new honeysuckle candle all the way down to the bottom. I will take pics of it when done. Again, I'd like to reiterate I have NEVER had a label singe or burn on me. I am just going by what the customer told me. And that the fact that it burned a mark on her wooden window sill. I use a stock warning label. Forgot where I bought them because I bought so many. But they say:

 

CAUTION:

Failure to follow instructions could result in fire hazard, injury, or smoke damage. Keep wax free of matches, wick trimmings, or other flammable materials. Keep wick centered & trimmed to 1/4" to prevent smoking and soot build up on container or other items. Burn only on stable heat resistant surface for not more than 4 hours at a time. Keep out of drafts. Discontinue use when only 1/2" of wax remains in bottom. Do not move candle while burning or if wax is hot. Keep out of reach of children and pets.

Never leave a burning candle unattended.

 

Now I know this covers a lot of the things that go wrong, but in the end I don't want to catch someones house on fire or harm someone.

[PhoenixFyre]

I'll be curious to see what you discover when you burn one all the way down, Glassfishy.

 

I've had a few testers that didn't extinguish themselves either, even when the wax level had gone below the wick tab's neck. My problem turned out to be that as the wax level got lower, the heat of the melted wax was melting the glue I had used to secure my wicks to the jar. It wasn't enough to make the wick tab completely detach, but it was enough that the melted wax was seeping under the wick tab and fueling the wick from underneath...causing it to continue to burn even when the wax was almost completely gone. It was actually another member of this board that helped me figure it out, and I was thankful he did!

 

Hopefully your test burn will help you see what's happening, and we're all here to help as much as we can.

[birdcharm]

2 hours ago, Candybee said:

Don't freak everyone! The industry standard neck tab length for safety in containers is 6mm. I don't know of any candlemaking supplier that does not have these. You can also buy longer neck tabs. Lonestar happens to be one of those suppliers that habitiually sells longer neck tab wick assemblys.

 

To read more about industry standards go to the National Candle Assn website. Lots of interesting info but it will take some time investment to read through the standards.

 

I like the 10mm's, but I'm kind of wondering what the point is if they aren't crimped at the top of the sleeve or neck -- if they are secured tightly at that point, the candle always seems to go out right there -- at about 1/4" depth.  The difference between a 6mm tab and a 10mm tab is about twice as much wax being left at the bottom of the jar with the taller sleeve, which certainly can't hurt where safety is concerned; but, a 6mm crimped tightly at the top is probably better than a 10mm crimped in the middle, (imo).

 

Here's a pic of what my tabs look like when crimped at the top:

 

 

Edited February 8, 2017 by birdcharm

[Incendia]

@birdcharm , where do you get your separate 10mm wick tabs? Candlewic sells 9mm ones, but they want me to fill out the entire form to get shipping changes (no thanks, you don't need all my information)(a pet peeve). A place in Canada has them too, but shipping was $22... As if....

 

I'm almost out and need to order some new ones soon anyway. Might as well get the taller ones.

[Glassfishy]

3 hours ago, PhoenixFyre said:

I'll be curious to see what you discover when you burn one all the way down, Glassfishy.

 

I've had a few testers that didn't extinguish themselves either, even when the wax level had gone below the wick tab's neck. My problem turned out to be that as the wax level got lower, the heat of the melted wax was melting the glue I had used to secure my wicks to the jar. It wasn't enough to make the wick tab completely detach, but it was enough that the melted wax was seeping under the wick tab and fueling the wick from underneath...causing it to continue to burn even when the wax was almost completely gone. It was actually another member of this board that helped me figure it out, and I was thankful he did!

 

Hopefully your test burn will help you see what's happening, and we're all here to help as much as we can.

PhoenixFyre,

 

This is interesting. In my original post I stated the past few weeks I had two people say the candle burned to the bottom causing it to get hot. The first one was a lady that said the bottom wick tab and what was left of the wick came off and layer on its side causing the flame to be right up against the glass. So I'm wondering if this is the same thing that happened to your wicks. If this is the case what can be done to keep the tab from coming unglued. Are there other options to adhere it maybe a higher glue temperature glue gun?  Curious if you changed anything. 

[Glassfishy]

2 hours ago, birdcharm said:

 

I like the 10mm's, but I'm kind of wondering what the point is if they aren't crimped at the top of the sleeve or neck -- if they are secured tightly at that point, the candle always seems to go out right there -- at about 1/4" depth.  The difference between a 6mm tab and a 10mm tab is about twice as much wax being left at the bottom of the jar with the taller sleeve, which certainly can't hurt where safety is concerned; but, a 6mm crimped tightly at the top is probably better than a 10mm crimped in the middle, (imo).

 

Here's a pic of what my tabs look like when crimped at the top:

 

 

Has anyone ever attempted to crimp or make their own tabs or does everyone just do the pre assembled. I e always just bought them premade for time but if I could just do them myself and crimp them in the right place it might be worth it.

[birdcharm]

3 hours ago, Incendia said:

@birdcharm , where do you get your separate 10mm wick tabs? Candlewic sells 9mm ones, but they want me to fill out the entire form to get shipping changes (no thanks, you don't need all my information)(a pet peeve). A place in Canada has them too, but shipping was $22... As if....

 

I'm almost out and need to order some new ones soon anyway. Might as well get the taller ones.

 

I bought these quite some time ago from a wick wholesaler ... I'm not sure if they are still in business or not, I'll have to find their info and get back to you soon. 

[PhoenixFyre]

1 hour ago, Glassfishy said:

PhoenixFyre,

 

This is interesting. In my original post I stated the past few weeks I had two people say the candle burned to the bottom causing it to get hot. The first one was a lady that said the bottom wick tab and what was left of the wick came off and layer on its side causing the flame to be right up against the glass. So I'm wondering if this is the same thing that happened to your wicks. If this is the case what can be done to keep the tab from coming unglued. Are there other options to adhere it maybe a higher glue temperature glue gun?  Curious if you changed anything. 

 

Yep, a higher temp glue stick for my glue gun and making sure I cover the whole underside surface of the wick tab with the glue just in case.

[birdcharm]

1 hour ago, Glassfishy said:

Has anyone ever attempted to crimp or make their own tabs or does everyone just do the pre assembled. I e always just bought them premade for time but if I could just do them myself and crimp them in the right place it might be worth it.

 

I think most people by them pre-tabbed.  When I first started making gel candles, I didn't know any better when I was new at it and I used pre-tabbed wicks, then I soon learned that the wax was clouding my gel (should have thought of that!), so I had to switch.  Also, one time when I was straightening the wick with a light tug to make sure it was perfectly straight (since you can see the wick in gel candles, that's really important), I had one come out of the base simply with a light tug.  That's when I decided that I needed to buy wick by the yard or spool and the tabs separately.  It may not be a mechanical crimp, but it's a firm one; and, often the pre-tabbed wicks have little holes in the metal where the crimp is, which can allow wax to penetrate -- when you do it by hand, the metal is not punctured, which I think makes the crimping work better.

 

Really, I prefer it, even now, as there is very little waste of wick.  If I'm pouring a few containers, I can cut the wick at triple than what I require for the first one and after the first candle, use the "left over" for the second glass and the rest for the third (I cut just a bit extra so the last one has enough in order to grip with a holder on top of the glass while the wax is cooling.)  Then, there's literally no wasted wick. 

[moonshine]

3 hours ago, Glassfishy said:

PhoenixFyre,

 

This is interesting. In my original post I stated the past few weeks I had two people say the candle burned to the bottom causing it to get hot. The first one was a lady that said the bottom wick tab and what was left of the wick came off and layer on its side causing the flame to be right up against the glass. So I'm wondering if this is the same thing that happened to your wicks. If this is the case what can be done to keep the tab from coming unglued. Are there other options to adhere it maybe a higher glue temperature glue gun?  Curious if you changed anything. 

I use permatex gasket sealer in the red tube....nothing is going to get that off

I used to use wick tabs and I still do for my testers and never had a problem with them BUT after hearing too many stories of floating wicks and wicks pulling off the tabs etc...I stopped using them for resale

when you use the red gasket sealer it also seals that wick so it won't come out, I just pull each wick to make sure it's not loose and dab the sealer on covering the whole bottom of the tab and stick them in the jar 

after 24 hours youncan swing the jar around in the air by the wick....don't recommend it but it's just that good and strong ?

Edited February 8, 2017 by moonshine

[moonshine]

11 hours ago, Candybee said:

Are you using assembly wicks or buying the wicking and tabs seperate and assembling them yourself? My initial thoughts are if you are using the standard 6mm or higher neck on the wick tab the candle should not be able to burn to the very bottom of the jar leaving at least 1/4" or more wax on the bottom as the wick snuffs out when it reaches the neck of the tab.

 

Next... have you actually test burned several of your candles to the very end just to see how the candle snuffs out and examine how hot the jar becomes?

 

Are the Ecos burning too hot for that jar? Are you overwicking for that jar? Do you need a cooler burning wick?

 

My last thoughts are if you can satisfactorily answer these questions on your own it could just be an exaggeration from the customer. It happens.

 

Wish I could be more helpful but I don't use Eco wicks. I have heard very conflicting info on the quality of the burn from Eco's so have not really jumped at the chance to buy any to test.

 

I want to add to this great reply from candy 

CB advanced is a pretty soft wax and ECO is a very hot wick- how many jars have you tested before Selling?  Have you tested all your fragrances? 

Most important question here is where are you getting your wicks from? And what is the tab height?  Bitter creek changed their manufacturer on many wicks and sell the stubs now and those are not safe imo for any candle application but a tea light 

 

Also, that jar with that wax I would be starting with an eco 8....that's just based on my experience from many years ago, eco are hot but if your tests all came back good and you did have wax left on the bottom every time it could be customer exaggeration but certainly you need to make sure 

check your tab height and let us known and what are you using to affix them to the jar? 

[Glassfishy]

4 hours ago, moonshine said:

I want to add to this great reply from candy 

CB advanced is a pretty soft wax and ECO is a very hot wick- how many jars have you tested before Selling?  Have you tested all your fragrances? 

Most important question here is where are you getting your wicks from? And what is the tab height?  Bitter creek changed their manufacturer on many wicks and sell the stubs now and those are not safe imo for any candle application but a tea light 

 

Also, that jar with that wax I would be starting with an eco 8....that's just based on my experience from many years ago, eco are hot but if your tests all came back good and you did have wax left on the bottom every time it could be customer exaggeration but certainly you need to make sure 

check your tab height and let us known and what are you using to affix them to the jar? 

Moonshine,

 

thsnks for the reply. I have been making and selling candles for over 2 years. This has only been an issue this past two weeks. I test every fragrance we sell. Plus before we started selling I tested various wicks with various waxes. I settled with the cb advanced because it not only holds up for my container candles but works great for my wax melts. 

 

I also start and typically use an eco 8 for my 12 oz jars. I get all of my wicks from lone star with the 10mm neck height. 

 

The only thing i purchase from bittercreek are their labels. 

 

Again. After 2 years of burning, testing and using my candles at home I have never had an issue with a candle burning the table it was sitting on or causing the label to singe. 

[Glassfishy]

5 hours ago, birdcharm said:

 

I think most people by them pre-tabbed.  When I first started making gel candles, I didn't know any better when I was new at it and I used pre-tabbed wicks, then I soon learned that the wax was clouding my gel (should have thought of that!), so I had to switch.  Also, one time when I was straightening the wick with a light tug to make sure it was perfectly straight (since you can see the wick in gel candles, that's really important), I had one come out of the base simply with a light tug.  That's when I decided that I needed to buy wick by the yard or spool and the tabs separately.  It may not be a mechanical crimp, but it's a firm one; and, often the pre-tabbed wicks have little holes in the metal where the crimp is, which can allow wax to penetrate -- when you do it by hand, the metal is not punctured, which I think makes the crimping work better.

 

Really, I prefer it, even now, as there is very little waste of wick.  If I'm pouring a few containers, I can cut the wick at triple than what I require for the first one and after the first candle, use the "left over" for the second glass and the rest for the third (I cut just a bit extra so the last one has enough in order to grip with a holder on top of the glass while the wax is cooling.)  Then, there's literally no wasted wick. 

Nice. Will definitely look into this. Not sure if it's feasible for me with my time constraints. But I like thought of better control on wicks. 

[Candybee]

19 hours ago, Glassfishy said:

Thanks everyone for the replies. I am going to power burn a new honeysuckle candle all the way down to the bottom. I will take pics of it when done. Again, I'd like to reiterate I have NEVER had a label singe or burn on me. I am just going by what the customer told me. And that the fact that it burned a mark on her wooden window sill. I use a stock warning label. Forgot where I bought them because I bought so many. But they say...

 

Okay I just reread this and it is very telling. This could actually be the problem right here. If that candle was right on a wooden windowsill next to the woodframed window that can cause it to produce excessive heat as it burns. It can also cause the label to singe and worst case scenario cause the wooden windowsill and/or windowframe to overheat and ignite.

 

Candles should always be placed on fireproof surfaces away from walls and windows or any flammable object.

 

What I would do is go ahead and test burn your candle to be sure. Then speak to your customer about safe candle burning and handling practices or she will do it again and the results could be disastrous for her and for you if she sues.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Candybee

[moonshine]

On 2/8/2017 at 5:32 AM, Glassfishy said:

Moonshine,

 

thsnks for the reply. I have been making and selling candles for over 2 years. This has only been an issue this past two weeks. I test every fragrance we sell. Plus before we started selling I tested various wicks with various waxes. I settled with the cb advanced because it not only holds up for my container candles but works great for my wax melts. 

 

I also start and typically use an eco 8 for my 12 oz jars. I get all of my wicks from lone star with the 10mm neck height. 

 

The only thing i purchase from bittercreek are their labels. 

 

Again. After 2 years of burning, testing and using my candles at home I have never had an issue with a candle burning the table it was sitting on or causing the label to singe. 

That tab height is probably one of the safest if your getting them from lone star and eco 8 in a 12 ounce jar doesn't sound too hot or unreasonable....advanced wax  and if you get consistent results then Candybee may be in to something as far as hiwnthe customer burned it in a window sill....but what about the other customer?  It could be how your affixing your tabs also, what do you currently use?  I highly recommend the red gasket sealer so you know without a doubt that wick isn't moving and always give it a pull to make sure it's not loose

[candlesinflorida]

Would it be worthwhile to put a half inch of plain wax without FO at the base of the candle? Or would it be just as flammable?

[birdcharm]

I think when you say "plain wax," you're referring to paraffin wax ... that is fuel for a candle.  I mentioned about how gel candles can sometimes have sand, etc. as a bottom layer decoration -- another thing some crafters use for this is baking soda.  The only thing, similar with sand, is that you have to "partition" the bottom layer off from the rest of the candle with a layer of wax if you don't want it to drift.  I haven't tried this with a soy candle, but I can't say it can't be done.

[GoldieMN]

25 minutes ago, birdcharm said:

I think when you say "plain wax," you're referring to paraffin wax ... that is fuel for a candle.  I mentioned about how gel candles can sometimes have sand, etc. as a bottom layer decoration -- another thing some crafters use for this is baking soda.  The only thing, similar with sand, is that you have to "partition" the bottom layer off from the rest of the candle with a layer of wax if you don't want it to drift.  I haven't tried this with a soy candle, but I can't say it can't be done.

When you say "fuel for the candle" regarding paraffin wax to separate, does this mean the candle will not stop at the bottom of the wick which is above the paraffin?

Goldie

[birdcharm]

I think I know what you're asking me, but I'm not exactly sure, so my apologies in advance if I don't answer correctly.  If you put a layer of paraffin at the bottom of a soy candle, the wick isn't going to care if it's soy or paraffin -- it's wax, and it's going to be fuel for the candle, so it would most likely continue to burn down to the sleeve of the wick tab. 

 

If you want to make a design that extinguishes the wick above the wick tab (i.e., near bottom of container), you can use other mediums besides soy wax, paraffin, etc., such as a variety of sands/gravels or marbles/glass, or baking soda -- I call it a "false bottom," but I don't really know what it's called -- maybe "decorative bottom layer" ...?  I've used this technique with gel candles quite a bit, or with a mixture of gel and paraffin.  I've never done it with a soy candle, as I've said, but it wouldn't be hard to do and it would put the candle out when the flame reaches the bottom layer of non-flammable ingredient other than wax. 

 

There are different methods to use when you're using candle gel, but if you're not using gel, you just do it a little differently.  The wick usually still gets mounted to the bottom of the glass as it's most secure that way; from there, you gently spoon in some baking soda (for instance) into the bottom of the glass (you can add some glitters too), making sure you don't "powder" the sides of the glass with baking soda; then you seal it off with a layer of wax.  In the case of soy, you'd want to seal it with a thin layer of wax to keep it in place and allow that to cool.  I would use paraffin for that simply because it has a higher melt point so it wouldn't melt when the candle is poured, keeping the bottom layer isolated.  When the candle burns down, it will continue to do so until it reaches the baking soda, then it will go out.

 

[GoldieMN]

@birdcharm OMGosh, I was picturing the wick on top of the paraffin, sand, etc.  What is wrong with me???  lol  You explained it perfectly.

Goldie