Scary Candle Situation from Customer...

[Glassfishy]

Hey Gang... We're a soap/bath and body/candle maker/store. I've had (2) separate customers tell me within the past few weeks that they had scary situations that made by butt pucker. I never want anyone to get hurt. I need advice to how i can change things to make them safer.

What we currently use:
12 oz. Plain Mason Jar
Brown Kraft Paper Label from Bittercreek
Ecosoya CB Advanced Wax (from TheCandlemakersStore)
ECO-8/10 wicks exclusively depending on fragrance (from Lonestar)

The issue is our candles burn ALL the way to the bottom. The VERY bottom. So customers are burning them down even though our warning label (on the bottom as most candle sellers do) says to not burn below 1/2"

Just had a customer message me (not upset) but to say that she was burning it and noticed the label was starting to singe and that it created a burn mark on the window sill she had the candle sitting on.

So my question is how do I proceed? Should I look into thicker jars? Should I do additional labeling? Me and the customer both agreed that no one reads labels. I know I wouldn't read a candle label as well. Moving it to the cap (which would take away from packaging and aesthetics) won't help.

Has anyone else experienced this? I love our current candles as a lot of work/research/testing has gone into where we are. People love them. But I also don't want anyone hurt or any type of liability against our store.

 

I have no issues with reaffirming as we sell that they are not to be burnt to the bottom for risk of fire, but a lot of people buy our candles for gifts. Just want advice on how to proceed.

 

Steve

[iansmommaya]

HIYA! So you posted this before I PM'ed you! Smartie! I hope you get some good advice.

[Candybee]

Are you using assembly wicks or buying the wicking and tabs seperate and assembling them yourself? My initial thoughts are if you are using the standard 6mm or higher neck on the wick tab the candle should not be able to burn to the very bottom of the jar leaving at least 1/4" or more wax on the bottom as the wick snuffs out when it reaches the neck of the tab.

 

Next... have you actually test burned several of your candles to the very end just to see how the candle snuffs out and examine how hot the jar becomes?

 

Are the Ecos burning too hot for that jar? Are you overwicking for that jar? Do you need a cooler burning wick?

 

My last thoughts are if you can satisfactorily answer these questions on your own it could just be an exaggeration from the customer. It happens.

 

Wish I could be more helpful but I don't use Eco wicks. I have heard very conflicting info on the quality of the burn from Eco's so have not really jumped at the chance to buy any to test.

 

Edited February 7, 2017 by Candybee

[Glassfishy]

27 minutes ago, Candybee said:

Are you using assembly wicks or buying the wicking and tabs seperate and assembling them yourself? My initial thoughts are if you are using the standard 6mm or higher neck on the wick tab the candle should not be able to burn to the very bottom of the jar leaving at least 1/4" or more wax on the bottom as the wick snuffs out when it reaches the neck of the tab.

 

Next... have you actually test burned several of your candles to the very end just to see how the candle snuffs out and examine how hot the jar becomes?

 

Are the Ecos burning too hot for that jar? Are you overwicking for that jar? Do you need a cooler burning wick?

 

My last thoughts are if you can satisfactorily answer these questions on your own it could just be an exaggeration from the customer. It happens.

 

Wish I could be more helpful but I don't use Eco wicks. I have heard very conflicting info on the quality of the burn from Eco's so have not really jumped at the chance to buy any to test.

 

Candybee, Thanks...

 

We buy preassembled ECO wicks from Lonestar. This is what we've always used. I've been diligent to not switch up between supplies because I want all my candles to test and burn the same way.

Here is their description:

6" length. Each wick has been primed with a vegetable based wax (161°F) and has been crimped with a 20mm diameter wicktab with a 10mm neck height.

 

I do burn my candles down at home, but typically stop burning them when they get down to the last 3/4"-1/2". I can't say that I burn every scent that we carry down to the very bottom. But I do burn them down.

 

When I test my fragrances I do half a jar starting with the ECO 8. We had issues in the past where we had some fragrances that needed to go up in size to a 10, but those are very few. Most of our fragrances are good at an 8 so that's where I start. I just assume that most people will stop burning a candle down. perhaps she is only burning them down to that 10mm neck height but that makes me fearful because if so then why are my candles causing it to burn the label and burn the wood window sill.

 

The thought of starting over testing new jars or wicks makes me more than want to vomit... I really don't want to head down that road if not necessary.... I'm sure you know what I mean. When I first started making candles I tried ECO/CD/LX/HTP trying to find the perfect wick. The lady at Bittersweet said STOP. you're trying to do too much. So I researched to see which wicks worked well with the Advanced wax and just worked with the ECO. Sometimes they give me fits but for the most part they're great burning wicks.

 

 

[Glassfishy]

I wonder one thing. The candle scent that she bought was Honeysuckle. We use an ECO10 in that candle. I'm wondering if just the fact that it's a 10 which is big for that size jar. So once the wax is going it's basically just a hot flame burning in a glass jar.

[Glassfishy]

8 minutes ago, Glassfishy said:

I wonder one thing. The candle scent that she bought was Honeysuckle. We use an ECO10 in that candle. I'm wondering if just the fact that it's a 10 which is big for that size jar. So once the wax is going it's basically just a hot flame burning in a glass jar.

Scratch that... It was an ECO 8 so it was the smaller of the two wicks...

[Candybee]

3 minutes ago, Glassfishy said:

Candybee, Thanks...

 

We buy preassembled ECO wicks from Lonestar. This is what we've always used. I've been diligent to not switch up between supplies because I want all my candles to test and burn the same way.

Here is their description:

6" length. Each wick has been primed with a vegetable based wax (161°F) and has been crimped with a 20mm diameter wicktab with a 10mm neck height.

 

I do burn my candles down at home, but typically stop burning them when they get down to the last 3/4"-1/2". I can't say that I burn every scent that we carry down to the very bottom. But I do burn them down.

 

When I test my fragrances I do half a jar starting with the ECO 8. We had issues in the past where we had some fragrances that needed to go up in size to a 10, but those are very few. Most of our fragrances are good at an 8 so that's where I start. I just assume that most people will stop burning a candle down. perhaps she is only burning them down to that 10mm neck height but that makes me fearful because if so then why are my candles causing it to burn the label and burn the wood window sill.

 

The thought of starting over testing new jars or wicks makes me more than want to vomit... I really don't want to head down that road if not necessary.... I'm sure you know what I mean. When I first started making candles I tried ECO/CD/LX/HTP trying to find the perfect wick. The lady at Bittersweet said STOP. you're trying to do too much. So I researched to see which wicks worked well with the Advanced wax and just worked with the ECO. Sometimes they give me fits but for the most part they're great burning wicks.

 

 

 

 

I just want to be very clear because from your answer. It sounds to me that you stop test burning your candle at the 3/4 - 1/2" from the bottom rather than test burning to where the candle snuffs out by itself. This is a critical point you need to be clear on. I always test down to the bitter end. And yes, I do test burn every new scent, wick, jar, etc.

 

The wick tab neck at 10mm should create a very good wick safety system in your candle application and should snuff out on its own at about 1/2" from the bottom. That should be enough of a built in safety feature.

 

This is a very important rule: Never underestimate or assume anything from your customers. Many consumers typically "power" burn candles for hours on end and then there is the worst group that lights the candle and leaves it until it completely burns to the very end from start to finish. Yes we have warning labels but honestly a great deal of our customers never read them and if you bother to ask you will be horrified by many of the answers.

 

So always test burn for the unexpected and assume you are selling to the worst customer. Its the best we can do.

 

Honestly what I would do is take one of your honeysuckle? candles the same one your customer burned and test burn that baby to the very end. Especially towards the end power burn it to the start of the neck tab and let it burn out. You need to see for yourself if you are 1) getting a jar too hot to handle when you pick it up, 2) see the label start to discolor or change in any way, and 3) be able to measure exactly how much wax is left at the bottom after the candle extinquishes.

 

If it is doing all these things the customer claims it would be time to seriously consider retesting a new series or wick and perhaps try different labels from other suppliers to compare.

 

 

[Glassfishy]

2 minutes ago, Candybee said:

 

 

I just want to be very clear because from your answer. It sounds to me that you stop test burning your candle at the 3/4 - 1/2" from the bottom rather than test burning to where the candle snuffs out by itself. This is a critical point you need to be clear on. I always test down to the bitter end. And yes, I do test burn every new scent, wick, jar, etc.

 

The wick tab neck at 10mm should create a very good wick safety system in your candle application and should snuff out on its own at about 1/2" from the bottom. That should be enough of a built in safety feature.

 

This is a very important rule: Never underestimate or assume anything from your customers. Many consumers typically "power" burn candles for hours on end and then there is the worst group that lights the candle and leaves it until it completely burns to the very end from start to finish. Yes we have warning labels but honestly a great deal of our customers never read them and if you bother to ask you will be horrified by many of the answers.

 

So always test burn for the unexpected and assume you are selling to the worst customer. Its the best we can do.

 

Honestly what I would do is take one of your honeysuckle? candles the same one your customer burned and test burn that baby to the very end. Especially towards the end power burn it to the start of the neck tab and let it burn out. You need to see for yourself if you are 1) getting a jar too hot to handle when you pick it up, 2) see the label start to discolor or change in any way, and 3) be able to measure exactly how much wax is left at the bottom after the candle extinquishes.

 

If it is doing all these things the customer claims it would be time to seriously consider retesting a new series or wick and perhaps try different labels from other suppliers to compare.

 

 

Thanks Candybee. Taking one home with me to Powerburn. I definitely always test all of my candles before we produce them... I can assure you that. But I'll be honest I never burn them until they snuff out. I guess I never thought the end of the candle would be a problem. I agree the 10mm should be definitely tall enough to keep them from burning all the way down to the bottom. I do know my candle jars are hot... Is there a way to tell when too hot is too hot? I've never noticed on any of my candle jars where the label has even discolored. We laser print our labels on Kraft Brown paper and never noticed one singe/mark/discoloration to suggest they were getting too hot.

 

What would you consider too hot? I can hold them by the neck either just after extinguishing or even while burning. Not sure if I could clasp my hand around a burn candle and hold it there for a long time. is that a test? When we tested teh next size down ECO6 they weren't big enough to have an adequate burn pool.

 

Do you use the CB Advanced wax? Just curious...

 

Steve

[Candybee]

Forgot to add, ask your customer as many questions as they are willing to answer so you have a clear picture of what they did. Often when a customer complains to me I come to find out a point or two I can take the opportunity to educate them on the proper way to burn the candle or trim the wick, etc. In addition if may give you the info you need to tweak or perfect your candle. Complaints can be annoying but they can also be a good opportunity to educate.

[Flicker]

Big problem here, a label can't burn/singe unless a flame is taken to the OUTSIDE of a jar. Food for thought.

[Candybee]

I've used the CB Advanced some years ago when it first came out. It makes a beautiful candle but for me it was much too finicky with scent throw. In frustration I gave up because of this last issue. Too bad, the wax looks beautiful in the jars.

 

I agree with Flicker, if the label is singeing in your test burn that is a huge indicator the jar is much too hot.

[Glassfishy]

46 minutes ago, Flicker said:

Big problem here, a label can't burn/singe unless a flame is taken to the OUTSIDE of a jar. Food for thought.

I agree completely. That's why this was so confusing. We have only been making and selling candles for almost 3 years. But I've never had any issues with our candles other than the occasional uneven burn. We had one candle that people were telling us would snuff out the wick so we changed wick sizes. But Never any issue with the label in anyway coloring/singeing... Anything. I burn my candles at home all the time (even this scent that the customer had issues with) and never any issues. But again, I typically don't burn my candles down that low. And to be clear, she wasn't upset. She still stated she loved our candles. Just wanted to make sure others didn't have the same issue. I'm going to do some full testing down to the bottom.

 

Is there a way to tell if your jar is too hot? I have never heard anyone ever comment on the jar being too hot. So this aspect is new to me.

Steve

[birdcharm]

The longer sleeve of the wick tab, crimped properly, will automatically put out the candle at about 1/4" every time, I do not believe there are any exceptions to this, as long as the wick is crimped properly at the edge of the sleeve where it meets the wick material.

 

I use 10mm tabs for safety for all candles other than personal use and have tested them many times -- they always go out, the tightly secured metal at or near the 10mm mark puts the candle out. 

 

Please take a look at your wicks and tell us if they are crimped at the highest point possible.  I use raw wicking and thread my own wick tabs, crimping at the edge and then again in the middle for an added safety measure.

 

Do yours look like this? ... http://www.lonestarcandlesupply.com/products/candlewicks_eco-8--6-wick.html

 

If so, I would start giving them an additional crimp at the highest point, because from what I'm seeing, they are not crimped right.

 

 

 

[GoldieMN]

23 minutes ago, birdcharm said:

 

Do yours look like this? ... http://www.lonestarcandlesupply.com/products/candlewicks_eco-8--6-wick.html

 

If so, I would start giving them an additional crimp at the highest point, because from what I'm seeing, they are not crimped right.

 

 

 

 

Hmmm. . .I use Premier wicks and mine all are crimped like the ones pictured in the Lonestar link. . .one crimp in the middle.  

Goldie

[Trappeur]

Geesh, now you've got me wondering about my candles now.....I've never had a problem but that doesn't mean I couldn't.  So a 10mm tab height  is what you recomment Birdcharm?  Is that the normal what everyone should be using?  Geesh, I get all my wicks from Flaming.  I'm going to check them out right now.  Now I have noticed on some jars of mine they are burned right down to the bottom of the glass pretty much...hmmmm....never thought a thing about it though.

 

Trappeur

[GoldieMN]

Where are you getting your jars from?  I use 16 ounce Ball canning jars.  No labels, but I don't think the outside of the jar ever gets hot enough to singe paper.  My jar might get a bit hot around the rim when candle is on first burn and going for 3 hours, but only the top rim.  As it gets to the bottom half on down, I can pick up the jar even on the bottom half.  Do you use the candle stickers?  That would lift the wicks up about 1/8" from the bottom of the jar.

Goldie

[Trappeur]

Flamings are a 6mm height.  But their crimp is so big that 1 crimp covers the whole wick tab.  So that is good.  So I wonder what everyone pretty much uses?

 

Trappeur

[Trappeur]

hmmmmmm

 

[birdcharm]

I started using 10mm tabs in my gel candles years ago (when I was making those) and I mostly use those tabs, esp. for any candle I give to someone.  I can let those burn to the bottom without thinking about it.  For my personal candles, I still use a standard tab because I bought a large quantity of them before purchasing the 10mm's.  I think a jar does get hotter if the flame somehow burns all the way down, which might be what happened in Glassyfishy's case.  One of the things I put on my candle labels is to place the candle on a plate or non-flammable surface, away from any fabric or decorations.

[Incendia]

I give a lot of my candles away, but am still concerned about liability. I've been using 6 mm wick tabs and assembling them myself. I really like the idea of the 10mm ones. I just saw some after a quick search.. so they are out there.

[birdcharm]

26 minutes ago, GoldieMN said:

 

Hmmm. . .I use Premier wicks and mine all are crimped like the ones pictured in the Lonestar link. . .one crimp in the middle.  

Goldie

 

So, then they are crimped at about 5mm?  The tall sleeve allows for crimping at 10mm, which, imo, is the safest way and you get the most benefit out of the taller sleeve.  I do not believe the sleeve itself necessarily (or always) puts out the flame, but the crimping does.

Edited February 7, 2017 by birdcharm

[GoldieMN]

7 minutes ago, birdcharm said:

 

So, then they are crimped at about 5mm?  The tall sleeve allows for crimping at 10mm, which, imo, is the safest way and you get the most benefit out of the taller sleeve.  I do not believe the sleeve itself necessarily (or always) puts out the flame, but the crimping does.

Yes. I'm about safety, as well, and will crimp these wicks higher as well.  Thanks.

Goldie

[Candybee]

Don't freak everyone! The industry standard neck tab length for safety in containers is 6mm. I don't know of any candlemaking supplier that does not have these. You can also buy longer neck tabs. Lonestar happens to be one of those suppliers that habitiually sells longer neck tab wick assemblys.

 

To read more about industry standards go to the National Candle Assn website. Lots of interesting info but it will take some time investment to read through the standards.

[Glassfishy]

1 hour ago, birdcharm said:

The longer sleeve of the wick tab, crimped properly, will automatically put out the candle at about 1/4" every time, I do not believe there are any exceptions to this, as long as the wick is crimped properly at the edge of the sleeve where it meets the wick material.

 

I use 10mm tabs for safety for all candles other than personal use and have tested them many times -- they always go out, the tightly secured metal at or near the 10mm mark puts the candle out. 

 

Please take a look at your wicks and tell us if they are crimped at the highest point possible.  I use raw wicking and thread my own wick tabs, crimping at the edge and then again in the middle for an added safety measure.

 

Do yours look like this? ... http://www.lonestarcandlesupply.com/products/candlewicks_eco-8--6-wick.html

 

If so, I would start giving them an additional crimp at the highest point, because from what I'm seeing, they are not crimped right.

 

 

 

Birdcharm,

 

Yes, those are the exact wicks I buy. I looked at them and all the ones I looked at are crimped dead in the middle of the 100 neck. I would say there is only about 2mm above that crimp. Should they be crimped all the way up to the top of the neck?

[Glassfishy]

53 minutes ago, GoldieMN said:

Where are you getting your jars from?  I use 16 ounce Ball canning jars.  No labels, but I don't think the outside of the jar ever gets hot enough to singe paper.  My jar might get a bit hot around the rim when candle is on first burn and going for 3 hours, but only the top rim.  As it gets to the bottom half on down, I can pick up the jar even on the bottom half.  Do you use the candle stickers?  That would lift the wicks up about 1/8" from the bottom of the jar.

Goldie

Goldie, I get mine from Cincinnati Container. They're the 12 oz. plain canning jar. The same one everyone else sells. They have them at Candle Science and Filmore Container as well. I have never had a label singe myself. I adhere with just hot glue and a straw. Much quicker for me.