GB 444 vs BG 464?

[Clear Black]

Can you kind folks please give me any insight as to the difference between the two? On the web site I buy my wax from, their own explanations of the two are almost identical. The only difference being that the 464 has a lower melt point.

 

It just seems that everyone around here and other candle sites seem to only use 464. Ive only come across very few people who even talk about 444. I purchased a 10lb bag of 444 and have been doing some test batches ever since. Im making progress and each batch is getting slightly better. I just dont know if I should be using 464 rather than 444.

 

What I plan on using the wax for is 8, 12 and 21 oz Elite jars and Lip balms. Although I dont have a recipe yet, Im shooting for 2 parts 444, 1 part bees, oils, Vit E and flavor oil. Eventually some clamshells/tarts but thats all.

[kandlekrazy]

this is according to GB website:  464 has a lower melt point and gives better adhesion

                                                    444 has a higher melt point which allows a higher fo load and stronger scent throw

[Clear Black]

this is according to GB website:  464 has a lower melt point and gives better adhesion

                                                    444 has a higher melt point which allows a higher fo load and stronger scent throw

Ok, call me crazy, but why arent more people talking about 444 then? Most people here and other sites dont mind adhesion/wet spot issues but are always after better FO load and hot/cold throw. Yet, the majority of the discussions Ive read are about 464. This leaves me with more questions than answers! 

[TallTayl]

When i visited the manufacturer site a while back i discovered 444 contains other wax... Palm i think it was when i read.

[kandlekrazy]

They are both blends if you want pure soy you need to look at I believe it's 402 and 415.

I don't use GB waxes so I can't help with those other questions.

Edited December 27, 2015 by kandlekrazy

[Clear Black]

They are both blends if you want pure soy you need to look at I believe it's 402 and 415.

I don't use GB waxes so I can't help with those other questions.

Yes, but the 415 and 402 will require a re-pour. The 444 and 464 do not. I just dont understand at this point why so many are using 464 rather than 444. it feels like I am missing some critical piece of info since I am currently testing with 444.

 

While we are on the topic, I am testing with 444 and found that heating to 180* and pouring at 100* leaves me with near perfect adhesion and tops. In the latest test batch I also added my FO at about 105* and poured soon after. How does temp play into throw when added at different temps? Meaning, will i get more hot throw if I added my FO at a higher temp, or is it the same as if I had added it at 150* or 105*?

[Guest OldGlory]

I wouldn't assume that the decision to use 464 means people are unhappy with 444. The choice to use one wax over another wax is probably nothing more than 'I tried it, like it, and will stay with it'. I've been using 464 for many years now and I am comfortable with it. Why should I test a different wax if 464 is performing nicely? Seems like a waste of time and resources to try to fix something that isn't broken. Maybe you are overthinking it.

[TallTayl]

444 threw better for me and a few others, but was much 'uglier' after burning. Repours are not a big deal, especially if you decide to excavate around the wick for potential holes from cooling.

[kandlekrazy]

I think you should be adding your fo at a higher temp, again I'm not real familiar with your wax, but my soy wax I add fo at 180 and pour somewhere between 100 and 120 depending on whether I'm making candles or melts.

[Clear Black]

I wouldn't assume that the decision to use 464 means people are unhappy with 444. The choice to use one wax over another wax is probably nothing more than 'I tried it, like it, and will stay with it'. I've been using 464 for many years now and I am comfortable with it. Why should I test a different wax if 464 is performing nicely? Seems like a waste of time and resources to try to fix something that isn't broken. Maybe you are overthinking it.

Oh Im sure I am over thinking it. My only issue was that on so many websites Ive been visiting lately, in all the customer review sections and all forum articles, hardly ever a mention of 444 but tons and tons of "help me with this" articles on 464. I will most likely continue with 444, but I am about to re-order another 10lb bag and was considering getting the 464 this time and see if I can notice a difference.

 

 

444 threw better for me and a few others, but was much 'uglier' after burning. 

This is an issue I have been noticing after my candles have burned for a bit and I wake up the next morning. i will have cave-ins on the surface with frosting that wasnt there initially after pour. I had thought that I was turning out bad pours as I am still new to all this. I might just decide to hold any further testing of 444 and give a 10lb batch of 464 a try this next week.

[TallTayl]

464 changes appearance over time too. It is the nature of soy. Embrace it and just make some awesome burning candles

Edited December 27, 2015 by TallTayl

[ehatch1]

I use 444, heat to 180ºF, add fragrance immediately (sometimes lower depending on the fragrance oil's flash point), cool to around 110ºF and pour.  I've never had wet spots or any issues, and my tops turn out nicely, too.  I live in the Mojave Desert, so I originally got 444 to prevent my candles from melting in the heat.  

I've been really curious about 464, just to compare scent throw and how it burns, but I can't bring myself to waste money on testing a new wax when the one I've been using is doing just fine.  The only thing I don't like is that after burning, the tops crystallize and look kind of grainy; however, I have just given in to the fact that it's soy wax and it does what it wants  It doesn't affect the burn.

[Clear Black]

I use 444, heat to 180ºF, add fragrance immediately (sometimes lower depending on the fragrance oil's flash point), cool to around 110ºF and pour.  I've never had wet spots or any issues, and my tops turn out nicely, too.  I live in the Mojave Desert, so I originally got 444 to prevent my candles from melting in the heat.  

I've been really curious about 464, just to compare scent throw and how it burns, but I can't bring myself to waste money on testing a new wax when the one I've been using is doing just fine.  The only thing I don't like is that after burning, the tops crystallize and look kind of grainy; however, I have just given in to the fact that it's soy wax and it does what it wants  It doesn't affect the burn.

I also have been rather annoyed with my tops after burning. I get pits and frosting that werent there when I first poured. Im also curious if 464 does the same, so I have a 10lb bag of that on its way along with some new style jars I want to test. The jars I have been testing will cost me 1.75 roughly and that includes lid. Im trying to get my cost per jar down a bit further under the $1.50 point. Doesnt seem like much, but that .25c per jar will add up over time I guess

[TallTayl]

I think you'll find that all soy waxes will end up with that cauliflower look after burning and cooling, a bit of paraffin seems to minimize that. But if you're after a "pure" soy you'll need to learn to love that look.

[GailC]

I used 444 for years, then tried 464 for 'better adhesion', and also because one supplier had a great sale on it. (Some suppliers don't even offer 444)  I've also noticed a lot more people talk about 464 than 444. I gave 464 a shot.  Didn't really see that much difference in how the wax adheres to the glass or how smooth the tops were.  I went back to my 444 just because I like it better.  It doesn't clump together in the box like 464 so is easier to scoop out.  Seems to me like it cools down quicker for pouring too. And I shipped some candles to Nevada last summer and figured since 444 has a higher melt point, it is a better wax for hot weather.

 

 In the end, I believe it's personal preference and what works best for you.

[Clear Black]

I used 444 for years, then tried 464 for 'better adhesion', and also because one supplier had a great sale on it. (Some suppliers don't even offer 444)  I've also noticed a lot more people talk about 464 than 444. I gave 464 a shot.  Didn't really see that much difference in how the wax adheres to the glass or how smooth the tops were.  I went back to my 444 just because I like it better.  It doesn't clump together in the box like 464 so is easier to scoop out.  Seems to me like it cools down quicker for pouring too. And I shipped some candles to Nevada last summer and figured since 444 has a higher melt point, it is a better wax for hot weather.

 

 In the end, I believe it's personal preference and what works best for you.

Thanks Gail. I have a bag of 464 on its way. Im still figuring out what size wood wick to use, so I plan on making a side by side comparison of the 444 vs 464 when I do my next burn tests. just to see how each reacts and see if there is any difference in melt pools etc

[C Dizzle]

I'm new as well, and ordered GB 464. I chose it as it based on information I read and videos I had watched at Candle Science and GB's manufacturer (AAK). I have found that LoneStarCandles is much closer to me, and thus, the shipping is considerably cheaper. I initially wanted to try a few waxes out, but it's been expensive enough testing this one. I will eventually branch out into 444, especially to figure out something for summer heats as I hear glass container candles with GB 464 can melt inside, but there may be a way around it by putting it in styrofoam? I don't know, but I do know the summer is months away! I have seen the most information on here about 464. Most sites say that GB 464 is their most popular container wax too, so I would imagine the most resources can be found in general online but I have come to trust these forums more than anywhere else for candle/soap making, due to the expertise, experience, and helpfulness of many of the members

 

If 444 has a higher scent throw, that's CRAZY to me. 464's scent throw is far superior than anything I've encountered with paraffin my whole life when I get it to work right. When I don't there's 0 hot throw, but it's usually a wick issue. Using Candle Science's Red Hot Cinnamon, the scent throw is so ridiculously strong, I can't wrap my head around something being stronger. I would be curious if anyone's done side by side comparisons of 464 and 444 for scent throw specifically.

 

What they are saying doesn't appear to necessarily mean it's a stronger scent. It can hold more fragrance oil, but that doesn't necessarily translate into a stronger scent throw. In my testing, sometimes more FO = less scent. Everyone on here will tell you that too, which is how I was sure that was right. Perhaps one more experienced here will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see the higher melt point yielding a stronger scent across the board, at best only specific FOs in that specific wax (if at all). It might even clog up the wick and produce much less scent.

 

Below I have linked the manufacturer of Golden Wax, AAK, and their information on the subject. Both 464 and 444 are 98% soy, and the other 2% is a Universal Soy Additive. IMO I would be adding this anyways if I went with pure soy, so it's as close as I need to pure soy. FO load of 464 is 7% to 9% (although you'll see people on here often use 6%, I've even seen 5% for certain oils. FO load of 444 is 9% to 11%. I could be way off here but I fear that 444 might need the higher FO to get equal scent (please correct me if I'm wrong). I will say I prefer using less FO, and many of my results so far have had such a high scent throw that I can't fathom a need for more.

 

http://www.aak.com/en/ProductsSolutions/Technical-products-and-feed/Goldenwax/Golden-Wax-Products/

[C Dizzle]

Thanks Gail. I have a bag of 464 on its way. Im still figuring out what size wood wick to use, so I plan on making a side by side comparison of the 444 vs 464 when I do my next burn tests. just to see how each reacts and see if there is any difference in melt pools etc

 

According to Lonestar, which is where I get my wooden wicks, you need to stick to Large or Extra Large. I haven't tested these out yet but ordered a lot to test. I am using soft wood wicks as what I've read seems to point they may be better, but I don't know from experience.

 

http://www.lonestarcandlesupply.com/candle-making/candle-wicks/

[TallTayl]

CDizzle, part of the scent throw, IMO/IME is finding the right balance. What i mean is when i put a few drops of the fragrance on salt in a warmer every single one throws well without fail. When factoring in wax, additives, colors, etc., all that changes that "sweet spot" of temps and viscosities to make the fragrance volatilize into the air cleanly. When i looked harder, that is where i found the best improvement in all my candles regardless of the wax type. My candles are far from perfect in my eyes, but they perform to meet the expectations of my faithful buyers, so all improvements are for 'me'.

I've written many times before in various groups about how a bigger/deeper melt pool does not necessarily mean better throw or a better overall candle. I have had some teensy tea lites throw as well as a big candle without overloading fragrance. The rate of consumption of the wick along with the temp required for the wax and such to melt and fully burn at the right pace to work together is more important. Balance.

So a bigger wick that creates more heat might not mean better throw. The wick is like a straw. It needs to be big enough to suck up the molten wax and fragrance. It needs to burn hot enough to fully combust without much residue to get it cleanly into the air. A hot wick with a "smaller straw" might make a deep melt pool, but not get the scent into the air efficiently because it is not burning optimally. This leads to Soot! And Mushrooms! In cars i think think term is "running rich". Too much fuel for the system = soot.

This all became *really* eye-opening to me when working with wood wicks in ceramic jars. The rate of consumption was balanced with the rest of the candle, so i never get much of a melt pool (often early significant hang-up too) but those candles fill the room within minutes of being lit with fragrances that are only marginal performers with traditional wicks.

You seem like the kind of thinker that is into the "why" to reach that "how". Hopefully what i wrote isn't too boring :/

[C Dizzle]

You seem like the kind of thinker that is into the "why" to reach that "how". Hopefully what i wrote isn't too boring :/

 

I am that type of thinker and more information is always appreciated. I'm a computer repair tech/network engineer by trade, and you can do the job without understanding the why, but learning the theory makes your job so much easier.

 

I wish more detailed books on the science behind soy chandlery specifically existed, but they do not. I'm excited about all the highly detailed books on soapmaking, though!

 

Anyways I would love to see someone do a comparison of 444 to 464, but I would find it interesting if 444 could throw better. My uneducated guess is 444 will throw certain FOs better than 464, where 464 will throw certain FOs better than 444, and there's probably some overlap where they are about the same although potentially with different % of FOs. Would love to be able to afford to test that right now.

[Guest OldGlory]

In side by side comparisons, 444 v 464, all other things equal, the difference in most cases is minimal. I have tried both, compared a few and found little or no difference - but I also have a tendency to get candlenose and keep it for months at a time. I have tested things to death, and when I have a winner I am a happy person. Once in a while I hear really good things about a new wax or a new fragrance and curiosity takes over. It's good to keep trying new products.

 

The final test is your customer, and you will have customers who think your lavender (or fill in the name of the fragrance) is AWESOME, and the customer right behind will say it stinks. In many cases, perception of fragrance is subjective and there is nothing you can do about that. I aim for a very solid affirmative response.