Paraffin, and the age old question of FO Load

[crvella]

OK.  I've packed in the C3 and 464 testing for now, and moved back to my trusty paraffin wax.

 

The problem I've been having for a long time, and why I was moving to Soy, was due to sooting.  I've now started to look at the fragrances I'm using; and question whether or not I should be focusing on these rather than the wax and jar..  I will list my fragrances, and the % I find I need to use them in so they do not soot excessively.

 

Orange - 7%

Coconut & Lime - 3.5%

French Pear - 4%

Vanilla - 3.5%

Sugar Plum - 7%

Sandalwood - 3/3.5%

Gardenia - 7%

 

3 out of 7 are a dream to work with.  I guess my questions to others are this.

 

1 - Are these low % to be using in a paraffin wax?  I've been told by experts here that if you can't add %6 then it's really not a good quality fragrance.

2 - Is sooting an indication of a poorly made fragrance?

3 - Has anyone tried adding more fragrance to try reduce sooting?

 

I understand most people say 'it's what works for you' but there must be some educated opinions out there.  I'm also aware that if the scent throw is good then that is all that matters, but the problem with using lower percentages of wax is the profile of the scent changes.  It's like making up cordial drink with just half the cordial 8-)

 

I might add these are all CDN 6, 7 or 8's in a 3" jar

Edited June 11, 2015 by crvella

[Guest OldGlory]

I follow the manufacturer's recommendations for fragrance load.

[Candybee]

I found with paraffin the biggest factor in sooting was improper wicking followed by fragrance overload. So I focus on the wicking as my priority then my fragrance second.

[Jcandleattic]

 

1 - Are these low % to be using in a paraffin wax?  I've been told by experts here that if you can't add %6 then it's really not a good quality fragrance.

2 - Is sooting an indication of a poorly made fragrance?

3 - Has anyone tried adding more fragrance to try reduce sooting?

1 - if you get a throw with this low % then it's perfectly fine to add that little. As for the 6%, I would say just the opposite of what you stated is true for me. If I have to use MORE than 6%, I don't find the FO worth it. There are too many good FO's out on the market that there is no need for me to use more than 6%. If I do, then I just don't use that FO. 

 

2 - I agree with Candybee, sooting in my experience has more to do with wicking improperly, and scent overload, than it does with a low quality FO. 

 

3 - adding more fo will not reduce sooting. In fact it may end up causing more soot. 

 

If you are having real major problems with soot, i would look into your wicks and the amount of FO you are using. More is not always better. 

[crvella]

Thank you for the replies.  I just had to throw it out there.

 

I actually have one fragrance that throws AMAZINGLY at 6% and doesn't soot at all, and on the other end of the scale I have a vanilla that I dose at 3 or 4 and it still soots. I just want to gauge what others are experiencing, and whether or not putting less than 6% in is considered norm in the experienced minds of other chandlers.

 

Jcandleattic.  I too agree that putting more in should and does result in more soot.  I guess I wondered if sometimes adding more Fragrance can reduce the flow of wax to the flame, resulting in better combustion and therefore less soot.  It was just a thought I had and in that thought, i wondered if I was adding too little.  Resulting in too high a flow of wax to the flame.

 

I'm being told by all the suppliers around me that the big competitors are adding 8-10% to all theirs.  That just struck me as too much given the scent throw, but thought of giving it a go and see what results I get in regards to sooting.

Edited June 12, 2015 by crvella

[Candybee]

Have you burned a Yankee candle lately? Talk about soot city! Their candles are terrible sooting machines!

[Jcandleattic]

 

 

I'm being told by all the suppliers around me that the big competitors are adding 8-10% to all theirs.  That just struck me as too much given the scent throw, but thought of giving it a go and see what results I get in regards to sooting

I never worry about what other people are doing - and honestly a supplier probably told you that so you would order more scent - and really, how would they know who your competitors are and what they are doing? They thousands of customers, they can't possibly know what they are all doing. 

 

Like I said earlier, if I have a scent that I need more than 6% for it to work with my combination, I toss it and move on. That will just not work for my bottom line or profit margin, and there are way too many good FO's out there to worry about the ones that won't work in my application. 

 

Also, if a scent is going to bind your wax and not let it "flow to the flame" then you are going to get less of a hot throw, regardless of sooting. And if that's happening, then it's improperly wicked in the first place, meaning with the added scent, you would need to change your wicking for the candle to burn properly. 

[TallTayl]

My replies align with Jcandle above. Supplier makes a difference in how much you need to add. Some are just not as strongly compounded as others.

One place my FO comes from can blow you away at 2-3% in wax. Why add more if you do not need it? My profits prefer using less.

Wicking is about the most important variable IME. No matter what wick or wax combo, the burning characteristics need to be working well together to perform well.

[chuck_35550]

Vanilla based bakery frgragrances are the bane of both chandlers and soapers. Vanillin just causes all kinds of problems in an otherwise ok system. Candles really soot in rooms where you have an overhead fan or other types of air movement that make the flame flicker. Severe sooting is a poorly wicked candle but light sooting is to be expected as a bi-product of combustion. Soy sooting is just not as profound but most certainly exists. If you are determined to use a fragrance that throws well and is a good seller; switch wick types until  you find the one that works the best and produces the least amount of sooting and or mushrooms. You burn something it makes smoke. I only buy fos that can be used for candles and not for soaping as well. The fomulations rarely are strong enough for two different applications (IMHO) and they don't seem to operate as well as fos specifically designed for one use. Try almond based fragrances with a little vanilla or cherry fragrances that can fill a room easily but don't require a whole lot of vanillin. HTH

 

Steve

[Guest OldGlory]

Thank you for the replies.  I just had to throw it out there.

 

I actually have one fragrance that throws AMAZINGLY at 6% and doesn't soot at all, and on the other end of the scale I have a vanilla that I dose at 3 or 4 and it still soots. I just want to gauge what others are experiencing, and whether or not putting less than 6% in is considered norm in the experienced minds of other chandlers.

 

Jcandleattic.  I too agree that putting more in should and does result in more soot.  I guess I wondered if sometimes adding more Fragrance can reduce the flow of wax to the flame, resulting in better combustion and therefore less soot.  It was just a thought I had and in that thought, i wondered if I was adding too little.  Resulting in too high a flow of wax to the flame.

 

I'm being told by all the suppliers around me that the big competitors are adding 8-10% to all theirs.  That just struck me as too much given the scent throw, but thought of giving it a go and see what results I get in regards to sooting.

Something to consider:

If you are being told by all the suppliers around you that the big competitors are adding 8-10% to their candles, have you burned them to see how much they soot? Maybe they soot like crazy. Could be those candle makers just don't care about soot. Could be the suppliers are just trying to sell more fragrance oil. You can't/shouldn't believe a LOT of what you hear!

[crvella]

Thanks again everyone! I guess on one hand I'm expecting too much and on the other there may be some other things I can try. Ive been trying to convert to woodwicks and truly thought I was going to nail it when I got my first fragrance converted on the first attempt. Now the others are just soot machines..... Ive given up with woodwicks on my paraffin blend. I'll try again later when ive found a soy blend I like.

I'm going to go back to trying HTP wicks in my paraffin blend. 3" container.

[Guest OldGlory]

You really seem to be all over the place with your choices of wax and wicks and that concerns me. There are many people on this message board who have found a way to work with 1 or 2 waxes and have learned to wick them successfully. Not that they don't try other wax/wick combinations along the way, but they have become successful with a few in the process. In your first post above you 'gave up on C3 and 464 and in the last post you are back to 'find a soy blend you like'.

It makes me think you are 1) giving up too soon, OR 2) your expectations are unrealistic, OR 3) your testing techniques are somehow skewed. Maybe it's all 3. But, with all the work you are putting into it should be paying off, and I feel like it might be costing you more than it needs to to find a good combo.

My suggestion would be to stick with one wax until you master it. If others are doing it, you can do it too. It is doable. Then when you have one mastered, pick another wax you are interested in and work with it until you master that one. Read thru the archives and choose waxes that several people have had success with, and use the wicks they use and the fragrances they use. At some point I think it is inevitable that you will find a winning combination.

[topofmurrayhill]

I actually have one fragrance that throws AMAZINGLY at 6% and doesn't soot at all, and on the other end of the scale I have a vanilla that I dose at 3 or 4 and it still soots. I just want to gauge what others are experiencing, and whether or not putting less than 6% in is considered norm in the experienced minds of other chandlers.

 

Exactly. There is no such substance as fragrance. Each one is a chemically different thing and works differently. It's best to get beyond the rules of thumb and test them individually for whether they meet your needs and how best to use them.

 

I'm being told by all the suppliers around me that the big competitors are adding 8-10% to all theirs.  That just struck me as too much given the scent throw, but thought of giving it a go and see what results I get in regards to sooting.

 

 

If that is true, I think my first experiments would be to burn some of those competitors' products and see how I like them.

 

Any manufacturers of quality candles have rejected many more fragrances than they have used. That's part of the game. I doubt they are generally selecting fragrances that they have to use at higher rates.

[crvella]

OldGlory - I agree, I'm all over the place at the moment.  I've a wax blend I love and works for me but as it's paraffin it doesn't work with the jars we are using.  1 pint wide mouth are proving too tall for some of the fragrances that have a tendency to soot more than the others.  They also loose scent throw by the bottom unless I wick up, at which point I'm then not happy with the heat in the jars or the monster mushrooms.  So I have a load of fragrance and a load of these jars, so I've been bouncing around trying to get all other variables to work with fragrance and jars I have.  Moving to soy to deal with the sooting, trying woodwicks to see if they burn more cleanly in paraffin etc.  I also do have unrealistic expectations, but I know this.

 

I have since learned that the FO and jar combination matters just as much as the wick and wax.

 

topofmurrayhill - I tried burning one of the competitors and found they are sooting exceptionally poorly, and read reviews of these products.  Some reviews have stated that their house was ruined by the end of the burn.  I think this is why I have such a hangup now on trying to eliminate sooting.  I burnt another brand and they were pretty good.  I'm now using up all the fragrance I have in our other two products, and in future selecting the fragrances that will work for the new products we are working on.  It's clicked in the last few days that the fragrance is the one element that I have underestimated.  I've had 6 FO's that I have been assuming should work because they've worked in our other products.  I've been trying to force a bad position really.

[crvella]

So today I woke up and went and did some research on whats out there.  Some being direct competitors and others that are priced right out of our range.

 

The first thing I noticed with all the expensive candles ($50-$95); They were all paraffin, they were all single wick in a jar under 3" wide and a lot were only slightly taller than they were wide.  Most measuring 3.5" or less.  And here's the thing that I was particularly interested in;  They were all the light floral and fruit fragrances, which are typically easier to wick and do not typically soot as much.  At least none of the ones I have do anyway (Orange, Gardenia, Sugar Plums).  I noticed one brand in particular, which was the most expensive brand, who had matching perfumes to their candles, the ONLY candle they didn't have that matched their perfume was a wood fragrance.  When I asked if they were out of stock, she said 'no, we just don't make them'.

 

So my initial take away from this was,

 

a) The jars we are using are making things difficult for us as they are twice as tall as they are wide.  We have made the same product in 3" wide by 3.2" tall which we were very happy with, so going to stick with that and maybe adjust 2 of our fragrances which we feel soot too much with our setup.

 

The fragrance selection in these expensive products are "safe".  i.e nothing woody, bakery like or anything high in vanillin

 

So then I forked out $60 for a popular 'posh' candle.  OMG!!  It's been lit for 20 minutes, it ALREADY has a mushroom; the wick is sooting like crazy; it's dancing like Justin Bieber just been told he can stay out late and play with his friends and I can still smell my reed-diffuser, which is sitting on the other side of the room, over the candle!

 

So yup... my expectations were heavily adjusted today, and I have learned that our fragrance selection process may need some work rather than trying to change our core materials to suit the fragrance.....

 

(sigh)

[Trappeur]

Crvella, can you tell us what jar you are using? ie:  the style name jar, the size of it and then tell us what wax you put in it, how much fragrance oil you put in, the brand and name of oil and how many and what size wicks also? 

 

How long did you let the cure b/4 you first burned your tester?

 

Trappeur

Edited June 14, 2015 by Trappeur

[TallTayl]

Market research is eye opening, isn't it

Over the years I have learned a very important lesson: i don't need to make the text book perfect candle/soap/cream/shampoo/conditioner/insert product here. I have to make the product that meets (or exceeds) what people in my target market expect. Nothing more.

Find your niche and produce for them. It may take a while to figure out what your target is, and you may restart several times, but with time and dedication you'll figure it all out

[crvella]

Trappeur - I PM'd you

[Shoegal]

That comment about Justin Beiber was hilarious!