Tester is selling, not testing! WWYD?

[mamacat]

I am so upset right now and not sure what to do. I am making candles, melts, and M&P soap with the intentions of selling in the future, but I'm not ready for business yet. I have never given anyone a candle to test, but have given soaps and melts to my mother and uncle to try out for their opinions. None of these were final products. My uncle has been great with giving me specific feedback and I love having a male perspective on scents.

 

My mother, I'm afraid has basically screwed me. The first bunch of soaps that I gave her she gave away to an unemployed friend to help them out and didn't want to ask them for feedback. She wanted more to try for herself and I told her I needed her feedback on them, that I can't afford to just give them all away. While she was here she saw a stack of melts on my shelf and asked to test them too. I told her they were just the left over wax from my soy candles and aren't the wax blend I use for tarts. She sniffed a couple and asked for them anyway and I said sure but they don't come out of the clamshell as easily and don't last as long. She ended up taking all of them. A couple weeks later I asked for her feedback on the soap. She said she was waiting to run out of her regular stuff but could I make something for my grandfather who had an itchy rash. I gave her a bar of tea tree & aloe and a bar of OMH to see if any of those would help. Every time I asked for feedback she would change the subject or say they smell good but she hasn't tried them yet. She said my pap liked the soaps and could use a lot more of both. Yesterday she called me and said her friend has a request for a liquid soap using specific ingredients and I told her I wasn't able to get into liquids or cold process yet. She got upset and said she already told her I could and can I just try. After we hung up she sent me an email begging me to just try it out and can I have it ready for when she comes to pick up the soaps for my pap next week. She copied and pasted a section of an email from her friend so I knew exactly what she wanted. The woman says in the email that she had a custom request of (made with two specific oils plus 3 essential oils only) and to put it in (a link to a specific glass jar). She said she will pay the usual $5 to test in case it's too liquid for her liking. She went on to say that in response of requested feedback, she loved the tea tree oil soap, that the oatmeal milk and honey didn't smell like much of anything so I should make sure it's an organic honey or add an eo, and that the coconut lime one was light in scent but it was acceptable since I'm using essential oil and not the '"fake perfumey junk" but they all feel good on her skin. She also said that the wax melts were perfumed so she gave them to her daughter, and that as long as I only use pure essential oils she will continue to test if I still want her to.

 

I was livid. I gave away around $100 my cost of product to my mom for free and they weren't meant to be sold- I lost out and she profits? I never claimed any of these were made with eo's (the tea tree one was, the OMH  was unscented and they were meant for my grandfather! The rest were fo's except a lavender but I don't know where that ended up). I don't want this woman (or anyone else) getting really upset when she finds out she was using the fo's she's so against, and I don't want to screw up my reputation before I even start! I don't want those 50 or so wax melt clamshells out there- they really weren't meant to be melts! I called my mom and just burst out with "you're selling the testers?!" and she said no, she gave them away to co-workers for faster feedback and when I pointed out the line in the email about $5 she got defensive about how she was only trying to help me, and how she needs money right now and that I don't appreciate her getting me customers and started to cry and hung up on me. I don't know how many she sold or to who, and if everyone is under the impression they're made exclusively with eo's when they're not, I don't know what to do. If anyone wants a refund I know my mom won't be able to give one and it will be on me to deal with. I don't like that none of these people have an ingredients list and may react to something. I feel like I should get in touch with them but don't think my mom will give me their info and I don't trust her to be the middle man. I don't want a bad reputation or lawsuit before I even make my first sale. What would you do in this situation? 

[Candybee]

First off, quit giving your mom any more testers or any kind. Period. If she asks why tell her she already knows why. No need to get into a long discussion. Explain to her that when you are finished testing your products and ready to sell she may purchase them from you then. Then stick to your guns on this.

 

Also, don't trust her to give the products to other family members or friends for testing. She obviously did not do as you requested so she cannot be trusted. If you want a particular family member or friend to have a sample product you need to give it to them personally.

 

I don't think any of these people your mother gave the soaps and melts too will try to sue since the email did mention they were testing them. But it is wise to be concerned as there is the potential due to your mother's carelessness and selfishness.

 

Good luck on your testing. I hope you are wiser for your experience. Sorry you had to go through this. I think its hardest having a close family member betray you and not feel its personal. It is.

[marcuset]

Candybee is right.  I"m sorry you're dealing with this.  Family is sticky when business is concerned - you are put in a very awkward position. As hurtful as it is, I think your experience may help others.

Edited June 27, 2014 by marcuset

[justajesuschick]

Easy enough. You should not be using friends and family to test (you likely know this!). They care about you and want you to be happy and succeed. You should use testers from here or other Facebook groups and forums who have experience with wax and soap and can be very objective, honest and direct. So, you simply tell her that you have been told by others who do sell that that is how you should test and therefore, your test product is spoken for/reserved for those who are doing testing following precise testing guidelines and reporting back in a very specific manner.

[Vicky_CO]

I agree with above.

 

I am sorry you are dealing with this but you have to be strong with your Mom and just do not give her anything again for testing purposes. So she does not get to bent out of joint make her up a basket a couple times a year for her of your stuff and give them to her on Holidays, Birthdays and Mother day. If you give to her as a gift she will have a hard time selling or giving the stuff away. Then you can asked later how she liked them.

[ChrisR]

I agree with everyone else in not giving your mom anything!!  Also, make sure your insurance is in place pronto, just in case there is a problem.  I would absolutely be livid if my mom had sold the things I gave her when I started out years ago.  My mom would always pay full price for things she wanted for herself and, of course, she got a well stocked supply of soap, etc on her special days.  Since she's been gone I miss talking to her so much about new scents, etc. 

[Guest OldGlory]

I would be way beyond livid. I have a sister who behaves like your mother - I cut her off long, long ago. My sister will do anything to have her way, including trying to make me feel guilty for not giving her exactly what she wants. WTH?

The word NO, followed by NO and yet another NO works every time. Pretty soon they catch on.

This is YOUR business and you alone are responsible for the products. Do not be coerced by anyone. When you let someone else tell you what to do with your business you are opening yourself up for all sorts of trouble.

[Candybee]

Hope you have had time to recoup and get some quiet time and relax. I would have been angry too. Just think about refocusing right now and whats best for your business. Let us know how things go.

[mamacat]

Thank you for the replies, I'm definitely not giving her anything else unless it's a gift. I don't have product liability insurance yet, and both my mom and uncle know this.They were the only two people that were supposed to use them and give feedback, they knew this. I do try them out myself first, I'm just looking for a second opinion. BUT, the biggest mistake is that I've given her things that weren't even meant to be tested just because she asked for them- like the melts made from leftover wax, and there have been a batch of soaps that I had miscalculated the FO and it irritated my hands. I was holding onto them to just remelt with more soap base to just keep around the house but she saw them, sniffed them, loved how strong they were and I told her what was up with them. She said she could really use them as they were, that nothing bothers her skin and I told her no because they seriously gave me an itchy rash and she just stuck them in her purse and said don't worry about it, just start over if I want them weaker but they won't hurt her. She is a bit of a freeloader and I didn't care too much about keeping them and thought there was no point in arguing if she's been warned. But now I'm afraid they've been sold. Then there are the ones from when I first started and was having a hard time dissolving the powder colorants. They were just embarrassing, but she wanted them.

 

Aside from my emotions, can what she did hurt me legally or business-wise later? I have no idea who these people are that she's selling them to. While she told the woman in the email that they were testers, she didn't tell that family she gave the first bunch to. I don't trust her. She is knowingly misrepresenting FOs as EOs. (She mentioned a few months ago that I should do only EOs because that's what people want and I told her it's not in my budget right now and I like a variety of scents but am planning to do both. She's using it as a selling point and I'm the one who looks like a fraud.) Everything was unlableled other than scent and type, like "Goat's Milk- Lavendar" or "Castile- Eucalyptus Spearmint". No ingredients or business name or anything...by me anyway. Will I be held responsible (legally) if something were to happen right now or will she since they weren't meant to be sold? And if she claims to be trying to help me create a customer base for when I start selling (which I never wanted her to do, especially like this), aren't they going to be really really upset when they see these aren't EO soaps? What if I charge LESS than my mother did, will that become my problem if they felt like they've been cheated paying more for testers? I really don't want to start things off this way, I feel like I've been sabotaged.

[ChrisR]

To answer your question -  yes you could very  well be  held liable if someone gets a terrible rash from the soap.  I had my liability insurance in place BEFORE I gave out one sample for testing, just in case.   Even if your mom is the one who gave out the products without your knowing, you are the manufacturer and thereby be responsible for any problems. 

[mamacat]

That's what I was afraid of. I had all intentions of having insurance before I started to sell or if I thought they would have ended up in other hands. I just didn't think it was necessary right now with just my family trying them, they would have laughed if I thought I needed it in regards to them. Ugh that woman. Hubby's not going to be happy about this, I told him I wouldn't be doing this until next year . Okay, thank you!

 

Oh- do I need a business name for insurance or anything else right now before I apply?

[justajesuschick]

Your packaging had no labeling other than scent name? No company name?

[mamacat]

No, I just gave it to them in a ziploc baggy with the scent and type since that's all they cared to know. I don't know if my mom would repackage it if she were selling it. I don't know if these people think they're getting EOs from her telling them or her labeling them that way.

[mamacat]

Come to think of it, I could deny that these soaps were made by me, couldn't I? LOL

[justajesuschick]

If you put them in actual ziploc bags, the scent will be sucked out and no one will have any idea what was used. Nor want to use them! haha!

 

The wax melts were in clams, correct?

 

How as information given to them that someone knew to contact you with feedback and for more?

[mamacat]

The soaps were wrapped unlabeled and placed in a ziploc bag that I wrote on. The clamshells were just written on with a Sharpie the scent and % of FO I used, just for my own use and to check cure time differences.

 

Nobody contacted me, they contacted my mother and she copy/pasted that part of their email in an email she wrote to me. She could give them my contact info but isn't giving me theirs. I think she's just afraid I'm going to make her look bad. I think my mom's request for making tea tree and OMH for my grandfather is actually a request from her coworkers...or her. I don't know.

[Guest OldGlory]

This could go a few different ways, and yes, you definitely could be held liable since you made the product. However, I would just cut every one off and hope that it doesn't become an issue. The chances of it coming back to bite you are slim. Remember that you are in charge and you are also responsible so base all of you future decisions on that concept. If anyone knows that you made it, don't count on being able to say "Nope, not me".

Lesson learned. If you are going to let people have access to your products you better be prepared for anything.

[mamacat]

Oh no, I was just joking about denying they're mine. This was definitely a lesson learned. I really wish I could contact these people, just to be in the know and set things straight with them. I feel horrible about all of this. I sent a calm email to my mother (she isn't answering her phone) and it's pretty clear that she's not going to let me contact them. She's spazzing out and getting overly defensive right now, but said that when she gave out the duds she let them know that they were "misfit bars". I can't believe she knowingly sold any of them! It really worries me. I've been looking at liability insurance today and have only seen a couple options that also cover candles. Are there companies out there that offer installment payments? I don't have $500+ to put out right now, this is why I was planning on waiting until next year, we were going to use our tax return to pay for the costs of going into business if I were ready then. It seemed so common on here for people to hand out testers to their family and friends, and I figured most people doing this as a hobby and gifting them out most likely aren't insured. I've been meaning to do things the right way and responsibly (that's why I never handed out a candle no matter how much she begged, and haven't sold any final products) but didn't really think of this scenerio happening.

[justajesuschick]

Contacting them is really not what you want to do. Legally it could imply that you were apprised and even a part of the activity. As was suggested earlier you want to distance yourself from what was done and let it pass. You do not have a business, you were not advertising them nor actively labeling and selling them. All of that can be documented and is actually in your favor.

 

My daughter-in-law makes incredible jellies and jams, with her dad and Granny (they are from the South). She brought us several jars at Christmas. I could have given them away or even sold them. It would be complicated and expensive but it could certainly be proven in court that she had no intent to sell and I was in the wrong in distributing them. You likely will have no negative consequence nor litigation as a result of your mom's carelessness.  I do hope that your calm note explained to her what position she could have put you and your husband in by her actions. The fact that she is not taking your calls and is defensive tells me that she knows what she did was wrong, even if she insists that she was not wrong.

 

I do not make candles nor bath and body products. As a result, I did not want insurance through a Candle Guild nor a Soap Guild. I purposed that I was not going to spend $600-$1,200 on insurance. I wrote a nice proposal which included photos and detailed description of my equipment and how I make my products. I broke another orthodoxy which says that you should not engage your homeowner's insurance company nor ever let them know what products you make in your home. I contacted the big company who insures our cars and home. The Underwriter received my detailed materials and I received a very nice quote for a very nice policy.

 

ETA: Of course I handed out melts to friends and family before being insured.

Edited June 29, 2014 by justajesuschick

[mamacat]

Breaking it down like that helps me feel better, thank you! I guess I panicked and am not thinking clearly. I did let her know what could happen, but she replied that I was paranoid and acting crazy and that I'm taking a craft way too seriously. She didn't take responsibility for anything or agree to stop selling them, just turned it around like I'm being irrational and said I'm making a mistake by letting potential customers down and if anyone screwed anything up it was me. She just doesn't get it.

 

Honestly, if the chances of this causing trouble are very slim, should I purchase liability insurance right now if I'm not going to give anything else away until I'm ready for business? I don't even know how to apply with some companies I browsed since they ask for business info and income generated from it. I don't even have a business plan yet, just playing around with creating, testing and perfecting right now. I know having insurance is always the safest thing but if I don't have it in my budget right now and am not ready for selling, is it wise or a waste of money? Am I even eligible really?

[ChandlerWicks]

Would buying Ins. today cover what was sold yesterday? I don't believe ins. is retroactive. Not sure.

[Guest OldGlory]

Simply put, it is a gamble to choose not to carry insurance. We don't know you or anything about you, so only you can answer that question. Do you have a lot to lose?

[justajesuschick]

Insurance before one is even selling or has established a company? I reviewed my hobby with my agent and we were covered, no additional insurance needed. Perhaps start there and ask your insurance agent.

I certainly did not have insurance until I had a legitimate and registered business. That said, I do not make candles with wicks nor bath and body products which can carry more risk. Not at all suggesting that you follow what I did but I would venture to guess that most here who are not yet selling do not carry business insurance.

[ChandlerWicks]

Check out Soapmakers & Cosmetic Guild when you are ready.  http://www.soapguild.org/

 

They are $480.00 a year & cover candlemakers also. That is the company I'm going to use as soon as I'm ready to sell.

[TallTayl]

What a mess. So sorry to hear you were used like that.

Reads like some of the stuff your mom may have sold was technically stolen since you said no and the items ended up in the purse anyway.

I would always recommend forming your business in such a way to protect your assets, then insure before selling.

Right now, as a hobbyist you are much like a person making cupcakes or jelly to give to your mom and friends. What person who makes jam, cookies or bread for fun and does not sell is insured for product liability? If you bring cupcakes to your mom's house for dessert tonight, and leave the left overs, and she decides to sell them because they are so tasty how are you accountable?

In the meantime, i would draw a line and stop this nonsense now. You have enough to worry about i'm sure.