BusyBee

Well!  There are more than 50 different wicks that we can purchase in US, and many of us have tried them all.  And many of us are always searching for something better outside of US.

If my memory is correct, then I believe many people are happy with HTP for 6006.  We have many other 6006 experts here, and they might join here for better recommendations.

I don't know what it is, but I just don't like the melt pool shape 6006 creates.  Most other waxes form flat melt pool, but 6006 creates concave shape melt pool.  I don't like deep melt pool in any candle, and middle of 6006 melt pool gets really deep while outer edge is shallow.  

Good luck to you!

1 hour ago, Vee said:

Firstly what a wealth of knowledge there is on this forum! Thanks guys you always take the time to reply and that’s not easy. I really appreciate it. 
I live in Mumbai. We don’t get pre blended waxes here so I make my own blend with 60%soy, 40% paraffin.. some stearin and some micro wax.
Candle making is at its nascent stage here. It’s not profesional like it is in other places so the challenges are very many. So I do the best I can with different permutations, combinations. People are also not that happy to share info. I have been looking to study all the material on candle making so that I have some clarity on the science behind achieving good HT and CT.

The person I learnt candle making from in France did not really give any importance to this at all. And at that time I had no idea how important fragrance and achieving a good throw is the most important thing to a candle. 
I keep testing. Though that’s a bit of a long road..it takes lot of patience and frustration!

Thanks again Guys .. always learn a lot from you guys.

It might be a good thing that you don't have pre-blended candle waxes over there.  None of pre-blended waxes in USA can be considered spectacular.

You might want to start from 75% soy, 20% paraffin, 5% vegetable shortening instead of oils, little bit of stearin, micro soft and maybe Vybar 260.  You can start adjust from there.  You might want to keep percentage of soy above 70% and use no more than 10% vegetable shortening.  Good luck!

13 hours ago, TallTayl said:

Coconut oil has been recently advocated as some magic miracle for hot throw.  When you think about why it may or may not work we can think about how to use other things to accomplish similar goals. 
 

coconut oil 76, a commonly available on the supermarket shelf food, is a veg fat that has a melt point of 76 degrees. It lowers the melt point of your wax blend. You could use mineral oil or vaseline to get the same result.  It comes down to if the problem with HT is the melt point or melt behavior of your wax blend. 

 

Coconut oil can help smooth out the irregular grains of soy and other veg waxes, but it comes with a price. Coconut oil 76 retains some molecular moisture and can create other issues similar to those in freshly made soy wax. Have you ever noticed how dry and crispy soy wax flakes get as they age? “curing” the wax or “tempering” the wax releases the molecular moisture that improves the look and burn of veggie waxes. 
 

Coconut oil seems stable in candles during cooler months, but an cause puddling, seeping and pooling in warmer times because it is adding oil to a candle that already has oil (fragrance) in it. Candle waxes have additives that can only hold so much liquid before it leaks. And remember that molecular water in coconut oil? It too will evaporate slowly over time which is why some coconut oil candles shrink in the jars as they age. I have some coconut 83 candles made last year that have 1/8” separation around the top even though the candles were sealed. 
 

So long story short, when adding coconut oil you “may” get  a similar benefit to paraffin in cold times without the stability of paraffin blends when warmer. If the problem with hot throw is not the melt point, then you may see no difference at all. You could use a hydrogenated vegetable or animal shortening instead of coconut oil to get to the same end, or add a different paraffin.
 

Sometimes a different wick series is a better overall option.  I find when fragrances need heat eco, cottonwood or square braid might be the ticket without reformulating. All of that is expensive testing for a fragrance that might not be worth it in the end. 

Another fabulous analysis and recommendation!  But I am wondering how many people can apply this into their candle development.

*There is one thing I don't completely agree though.  I think it would be easier to reformulating the wax than finding the right wick.

5 hours ago, franu61 said:

SHOPPING CART
Item		Price	Qty	Total
	8 oz. Candle Tin 12 pc Case	$11.56		$11.56
	Canary Yellow Dye Blocks 1 pc Block	$1.19		$1.19
	Navy Blue Dye Blocks 1 pc Block	$0.96		$0.96
	Red Dye Blocks 1 pc Block	$0.96		$0.96
	CD 16 6" Pretabbed Wick 12 pc Bag	$2.47		$2.47
	Warning Labels 1.25 Inch 100 pc Roll	$3.01		$3.01
	Lavender 4 oz Bottle	$8.68		$8.68
	Blue Spruce 4 oz Bottle	$8.68		$8.68
	Golden Brands 464 Soy Wax 10 lb Bag	$17.96		$17.96
	Wick Stickers Pro 120 pc Pack	$5.96		$5.96
	1 oz fragrance Christmas Hearth	$2.65	1	Free
TOTAL 61.43
USPS Flat Rate Regional- Includes tracking						$17.82                                      $79.25
						Here is an "order" from CS to get us started.

There aren't that much price differences of tins & waxes even if they are purchased in volumes unless it is purchased by the full trailer.  But if you calculate price of rent for the storage space & utility cost to keep them cool & warm, then there isn't much difference.  Maybe 20 cents per candle.  We will need to at least go by 1 lb of FOs prices.  Price difference is about 50 cents per candle if they are purchased in 4 oz bottle vs 1 lb bottle.  If FOs are purchased from manufacturer in 25 lbs to 50 lbs keg, then cost can go down another 40 cents.  Wick should be calculated at least 100/pack price which comes out to be about 9 cents per candle vs 20 center in 12 pc bag.  If wick is purchased from manufacturers by 3,000 or 5,000 or 10,000, then it would go down to about 4 cents each.

Here is my price break down if they are purchased in box price.  Below of price break down are my targeting retails prices in different places.

Tin: 48 in a box 

Wax:  45 lbs box

Wick:  100/pack

Additives:  Less than 5 lbs bag

Labels:  I make my own.

*I only do strictly wholesale & special direct retail where people order minimum of 10 to 300 candles.  

I find that best selling candles are priced at about $25 per 10 oz candles in big cities like New York, San Francisco & Los Angeles.  It would be about $12 or $14 in small cities.  However, best selling candles are priced at $20 to $28 in small but busy tourists towns (size 7 oz to 11 oz).  I have been checking out Etsy, and it looks like the candles priced at $20 range sold much better than $10 candles.  10 oz size candles are selling at $45 in high end resort like Pebble Beach with Pebble Beach logo.  But they will be looking for candles that are wholesale priced below $15, and they will be asking to do their logo on candles (private label candles) unless we are Jo Malone or Diptyque.

Placing our candles in right places with right prices would be key to our success.  If you are in small rural town and price structure does not work (many cases it won't), then concentrate on finding right place to put your product.  Whether it is online sales platform or doing wholesale to other cities.  Small town people might pay more for materials due to shipping cost (in and out), but they have advantage of cheaper labor and rent.  It kind of evens out and it's a fair game for all. 

*You can still sell your candles at your small town at super discounted retail prices telling people that they are cosmetic blemish ones.  We have See's Candy factory in our town, and they sell cosmetic blemish chocolates(the ones that are crushed little bit) at about 40% discounted price.  They are always sold out before 2:00pm.  Your town people will be glad to buy your candle with wet spots, frosting, whatever the blemish that you point out at super discounted price.  Chances are they will probably want more of those than your regular planned priced candles.

I do strictly wholesale and only do some direct special retails in volume.  My wholesale price is the same, but retail prices are totally different based on where they are sold.  Some might say it is not fair that some retailers like resorts & high end spas makes tons of money and I don't.  It's their name value that sells my candles not because my candles are that good.  I don't care as long as I get to take the portion that I want.  And the more they sell with more profits the more they will ask for more. 

Marketing research is critical part of pricing our candles.  Once we know that number, then we can work backward to sourcing our candle parts & ingredient at right targeted costs.  Don't forget that people always want bargain, but they don't want the cheap stuff.  Once again, this is just another my crazy opinion.

Would Bath & Body Works candle recipe considered as proven recipe?  Here it is!

In order to beak down this recipe, you need to know the CAS NUMBERS (8016-70-4).  Percentage of blend is still our job to figure it out.  But when we have this, it should be a lot easier.   PM me your email address.  I will send you some files regarding CAS Number & others if you are interested.

Frosted Cranberry

3-Wick Candle

UPC#: 667553889836

Ingredients:

Hydrogenated Soybean Oil(8016-70-4,Wax),

Paraffin(8002-74-2,Wax),     *IGI 1230 Fully Refined Paraffin Wax: 10 -30%

Hydrogenated Palm Oil(68514-74-9,Wax),

Microcrystalline Wax (Cera Microcristallina, Cire microcristalline)(63231-60-7,Wax),

Fragrance (Parfum)(Fragrance Ingredient),

Benzyl Benzoate,

Sorbitan Oleate(37318-79-9,Emulsifying Agent),

Butyl Stearate(123-95-5,Emulsifying Agent),

Linalool,C7-9 Esters of Benzotriazolyl-Dimethylethyl-p-Hydroxybenzenepropanoic Acid(Stabilizer),

Bis(Octyloxy-Tetramethyl-Piperidyl) Sebacate(Stabilizer),

Pentaerythrityl Tetra-di-t-butyl Hydroxyhydrocinnamate(6683-19-8,Stabilizer),

Limonene,

Citral,

BHT(128-37-0,Stabilizer),

Solvent Red 24 (CI 26105)(85-83-6,Colorant),

Disperse Violet 26 (CI 62025)(Colorant),

Solvent Orange 7(Colorant),

Solvent Blue 36 (CI 61551)(Colorant),

Solvent Green 3 (CI 61565)(128-80-3,Colorant),

Solvent Red 26(Colorant),

Solvent Yellow 56 (CI 11021)(Colorant)

@calan

So why doesn't everyone jump all over GG palm?
In other words... what is the massive, nightmarish brick wall ahead of me that I'm not seeing yet?

I don't think there is any nightmarish brick wall front of you using Palm Wax.  I love those looks that palm wax creates.  But I prefer to use colored jar over clear one due to colors fading under direct sun light or store lightings.  And, I find that hydrogenated palm oils(fully or partially) work better if it is used as additives.  Many big name brand candle companies use it as additives in their candles.

I believe you have tried mixing different waxes before.  Have you tried adding oils or partially hydrogenated vegetable oils?  It is much easier than blending different waxes, and you will be surprised with the results.  It can change total characteristics of crappy Pre-blended waxes that we are getting from candle suppliers.  

Even if we are starting from our kitchen, below are things that we need to calculate in order to grow into real business.  When you have these $ figures, then it will lead you to the idea how to pricing your candle and when your business can grow out to commercial space and expand.  These numbers will kind of lead us to figure out how many we need to sell in order to get into commercial space, hire employee & how many, and when to invest in more machinery, etc.  When you have goal of sales volume, it could make you think about your marketing method in order to reach that goal.

"Direct labor cost" would be $1.25 per candle in Los Angeles CA (This cost could go down with more wax melting tank and dispensing guns.), and my "Direct Material Cost" is $5.05.  Manufacturing Overhead can be only calculated when you know your sales volume.  This is why I like to use 4X thru 12X to Direct Material Cost. 

*Multiplier should be depend on your operation size.  If you have small store, then it should be minimum of 6X or 8X.  

If you want to stay as home based part time business (which is great part time supplemental income), then you might not need to do this.  But then, it's your business.  You can do whatever you want with it.

Wow!  That is nuts!  My profit for $50 wholesale is about $25 counting the cost of free delivery.  And I get to sell them in bunch to one place.

Is the off-center caused by the wick curling?  TallTayl has the solution to solve that problem.  According to TallTayl, wick has pattern that shows direction of the wick that is going to curl. 

If it is wick centering problem, then it is much easier problem to solve.  Some centering device or practice...

*In my case, I use the wicks that does not curl.

@MilosCandles

"Candle wax melting pot" should be the right name for search.

@WCCS

I suppose some USA manufacturers with aluminum or stainless steel rolling or turning capacity might be able to do it on special order basis.  But I don't think they can beat the prices of Chinese pots.

Some candle testing institution might have those data, but it’s going to cost you tons of money for that kind of report.  That is if they ever have it.

ASTM Standards are not mandatory standards, which means no one has to follow it.  Manufacturers & we try to follow it because of safety reasons.

Most of canning jars are designed to withstand boiling water which is 212F and above.  Very hot coffee is served at 175F.  Container of our candle should not be hotter than 150F if it is designed right, so we should be safe with most of candle containers if they are dish washer safe. 

But why do we see glass candle containers blowing up?  It is due to crazy dancing flame.  Some bad designed candle’s flame is constantly hitting the wall or getting too close to the wall.  Top and outer part of a flame is close to 1,400F.  There is no container that will withstand the direct contact with flame.  So, if you design a safe candle using dish washer safe containers, you don’t have to worry about temperature rating.  However, you might want to do thermal shock test at home.  You will find how to do that test in following link.  

https://eca-candles.com/pdf/WorldCandleCongress/ASTM Standards and the Candle Industry - Becker Moss.pdf

Melt pool depth was about 5/16" which was great, and I loved everything about it.  But I found out it has serious reliability problem.  Some of the wick would not lit up or won't stay lit.  See picture for bad wick.  

Different part of same tree has different density which means some wood wick will have normal capillary action, higher than normal, little, and some does not have any.  It would be unpredictable.  If you end up with high density wood wicks, then you are going to have no capillary action problem.  Booster wick was designed by other company, but it was not enough to solve wood wick problem.  There is no way to tell it by looking at them.  You will only know when you light it up.  One of the CraftServer member "Sponiebr" has the best explanation of wood wick problem.  Sponiebr was trying to solve this problem by hammering it down, which will break the wood fibers to create room for constant capillary action.

You might want to do more research and testing on wood wick before you decide to use it for your candle business.

Also, you might want to take a look at all the wooden wick related patents if you are serious about using them.  Go down page and take a look at all other related patents ["Cited By (14)]  section also.

*Lumetique, Inc. is parent company of Wooden Wick Co. which holds "Planar Wick" patent, and actual patent holder of wood wick & booster wood wick are some other company.

https://patents.google.com/patent/USD644359S1/en

Adhesive Dots

https://www.thomasnet.com/nsearch.html?cov=NA&heading=96139670&typed_term=adhesive+dots&searchterm=adhesive+dots&what=Adhesive+Dots&WTZO=Find+Suppliers&searchsource=suppliers

Melting Pots

CandleMakingSupplies.net [General Wax] is importer from China.  They have reasonable volume discount.  If you want better price, then you have to source it direct from China.  But it's going to be almost impossible to get anything here from China during this pandemic.

https://www.candlemakingsupplies.net/candle-wax-melting-equipment/cate_97/p___P0081710.html

I use 464.  From my experience, Booster wick .02 worked best.  Mine is 3.6" tin and melt pool can be controlled by width.  I think I cut down side little bit of .500". (little bigger than .375")

Are you making candles for personal use or is it for commercial purpose?  Wood wick would be the best choice for 464 for personal usage, but I would not recommended for candle business.  Many of the wood wick just won't stay lit or lit up at all.  It's got serious capillary action problem due to density of wood can be totally different even the wood pieces came from same tree.

Many suppliers still have C3 in stock.  If you are in the east coast, then Candlewic would be good choice.  West coast would be Candlemakingsupplies.net (General Wax).

It is going to be almost impossible to find square mason jars right now.  You have to keep on checking suppliers for availability and grab as much as possible when it is available.  Candle Science and Candles & Supplies are good suppliers to keep checking for mason jars.

I believe Sturgis Motorcycle Rally had big turn out this year even with our pandemic situation.

I did Coffee & Donut once in Pasadena Rose Parade.  This was when I was very young, and I was sold out in 2 1/2 hours.  I could have made a lot more money if I had brought more.  I don't have interest in participating in festivals or fairs selling candles, but festivals like Pasadena Rose Parade & Portland Oregon Rose Festival are too good to ignore.

@TallTayl

Like you have mentioned earlier, we would need to place our product in right place with right concept.  And, lucky break will come when you are placing yourself in right place with good product.

Here is few examples of lucky break that some company had.  Do you remember Jelly Belly jelly bean and Ronald Reagan?  Jelly Belly sales took off after Ronald Reagan became our president, and they are possibly only one who ever made jelly bean with US Presidential Seal on them.  Callaway Golf became no-name brand to name brand over night thanks to Bill Clinton.  Nobu Sushi restaurant was able to turned into an empire due to Robert De Niro's involvement.  Our lucky break will come only when we place ourselves front of this kind of influential peoples' sights.  I have been following people like Herve Pierre.  He is the fashion designer for our first ladies.

May I intervene here with my marketing thoughts?

In my opinion, marketing research is all about finding out Who buys What, Why and How they use it after purchase.  Jo Malone & other expensive famous luxury brand candles are mostly bought as corporate gift items.  If you go into luxury brands' website, then you will always find "Corporate Gift" section.  Of course, there are rich people who buys them to show the world that they have money to burn, and they treat it as one of interior design item.  Some will buy Jo Malone because they are royal to Jo Malone perfume lines.  Some will buy it because they want to have special treatment moment by using it.  Once someone has these kind of data, then he or she can work on creating their marketing plan.

I am not going to share my main marketing target, but I am willing to share my second and third targeted market.  I do corporate gift candles with client company's logo.  I rarely have competition in this sector.  My clients still buys Jo Malone & Diptyque products for corporate gifts for few of their high end clients, but my sales volume is a lot higher than them.  

My third targeted market is still work in progress, and they are US Militaries.  I will need to get trademark licensing & full fill their requirements.  Please keep in mind that I am not officially licensed manufacturer of these yet, and below pictures are just samples that I was showing to their licensing department.  [See pictures below]

Another market I am looking at which does not have candle but have great potential would be college bookstores.  Famous top universities like Harvard and Standford have tons of visitors to their campus.  I took my daughter to university tours when she was in high school, and we bought tons of school logo items.  And college students buy a lot of school logo products when they go back to their home during vacations to give out as presents.  Many locals buy college logo product if that college has good sport teams.  Candle is a one of top gift items, but I rarely see them in famous college bookstores.

There are some trademarks that can be used without paying any royalties.  All you have to do is apply and get approved which is very simple process.  And some has an affordable hobbyist trademark licensing program (only $50 to $200 per year).  Starting with these would be great way to test certain markets.  Or you can piggy back with company that already has the license.

I am not saying these are easy thing to do.  I am just pointing out what creative target marketing is all about.

There are so many unexpected places that we can sell our candles.  Religious candles used to be mostly taper candles, and some have what they call 7 day prayer candles.  They are not the only one in demand for them anymore!  They use a lot of scented container candles now when they pray.  Candle is a candle, and what they need is a flame not the candle type.  And they are choosing scented candle over their traditional candles.  Something like this would be figuring out change in trends.  Only the right marketing research will give us the opportunity for lucky break!  This is just my opinion on marketing!

I am very curious to see how you can modify them(wicking) to make it better.  I have been playing with other brand candles, and I got much better result than their original wicks.

Has anyone seen this before?

https://everlastingcandleco.com/

1 hour ago, ErronB said:

 

The reason you're finding it almost impossible to find a wick for 464 is because you're using 12% FO, you don't need more than 8% (or maybe 10 for really light fragrances) to get a big hot throw. Personally I used CD wicks because they self-trimmed well when you don't use a ton of FO.

 

The problem with 464 is that the batches are so inconsistent finding that 'sweet spot' for the killer throw. It can be all over the place and requires making several testers from each lot, that's why I won't use it anymore. It's not hard to get an average throw after a good cure, but it's capable of a lot more if you know exactly what you're doing.

Best part is that my customers don't know that I don't know what the hell I am doing.

Yes.  It should be a wick issue.

I make 464 candles.  I heat it up to 180F, add 12% FO at 175F, & pour at 135F.  It's almost impossible to find a wick for this wax.  The best you can do is bring out 65%(This number could go down to 50% if someone is aiming for hit in your face strong HT.) of its HT capacity.  This is possible if you are using wicks from well known wick manufacturers.  I was able to achieve 75% by making my own wicks, and I consider both of them as sellable candles.  But it still is far below what other easier waxes can bring it to the table with using only 6% FOs.  However, I learned a lot from this wax that I am capable of wick all other waxes with ease now.  I can tell you that it is ECO wick that will work to 65% of its capacity, but my suggestion is to avoid soy or any soy blends(These are worse than 100% soy.) for your first candle development project.  Because it is going to take a lot more time to make these work compare to others.  You also need to deal with impossible to get rid of horrible frosting & wet spots with soy wax.

My daughter picked soy wax for our candle venture, and we stuck with it without knowing anything about waxes.  464 looked best among all available waxes.  Is there any reason why you have picked 464?  If you want to go with vegetable waxes, then coconut or palm would be much easier to make excellent candles.  

I have 464 candle that is more than 2 years old.  It is still good as few month old candle.  I also have 464 wax that was almost 3 years old kept in good environment, and I think wax gone little bit bad. It's more watery and lean even though it kept in nice dry storage.  It took a lot longer to hardening up after pour.

Quality changed during 2016, but real changes were made during 2018.  It is leaner and burns a lot easier than before.  Soy wax has recommended shelf life of 1 year.  This wax has past that date long time ago even though it might still can be used.

4 hours ago, TallTayl said:

They wick for early and continuous hot throw and nothing more. They overwick because that is what their customers demand. Some of those jars get nasty hot too.

 

what a beautiful burn in those pictures busybee. I know you’ve mentioned your wick design before I just don’t understand what you’ve done. But they look phenomenal.

Good catch!  It's still work in progress.  So far, it works very well in 100% paraffin, 100% coconut (coconut 83), and Yankee & WoodWick soy blend candles.  It does not work in 6006, 464 & Ceda Serica.  They are layers of fibers taken out from the tree.  I was searching for this material's manufacturers, and I found out someone already beat me to it and has patent on this material wick.  I will need to talk to inventor/manufacturer about putting layers of other material to make it work in other popular waxes in US.  Or I can just use it as is in paraffin, coconut wax or make a wax blend like Yankee & WoodWick.  I think I am very close, and I will update you when I am done.  Now, I can do the taper thing that we talked about some time ago. 😉