Is NatureWax C3 "100%" soy wax?

When answering Judy's poll, I was kinda hung up on the 100% thing... supposedly, as the legend goes, C3 also has "botanical oils" and other mysterious stuff in it to make it handle better, but only contains one type of wax - soy.

OK.

But I went looking at the NatureWax site today and it didn't SAY that at all. I looked and looked and I couldn't find anything on their site that identifies their product as 100% soy wax, or even SOY wax!! So I downloaded ALL of the the MSDS and technical data sheets for all of their products and they all say the ingredients are "Hydrogenated Vegetable Glycerides." The word, soy, does not even appear on their website! Nor on any of those sheets nor even on the label on the box of C3 I have.

WHAT?:shocked2:

Seems like if NatureWax is a soy wax product, let alone a 100% soy wax, it would say so on the website or technical data SOMEWHERE... wouldn't it? I would have sworn that their site USED to refer to soy...

What gives here? Has something changed? When did NatureWax change from being a "100%" soy wax to a vegetable (?) wax? I am kinda disturbed about this...

Is this news to any of y'all who use NatureWax products?

don't tell me I've been busting my balls trying to figure out C-3 and it's not even soy!!! gol darn it!!!

yes I have 70 lbs of of c3 and the only reason I purchased it was because it said 100% soy.

Hey Stella!

Here is a phone number for Cargill (877-727-0696). When you call, ask for Tim. He is one of the chemist there, and a great person to talk to. I tested the C3 wax, when it first hit the market, and talked to Tim quite a few times trying to figure out how to get rid of the cracking and sink holes. I did not want to do a repour, or use a heatgun. I never did figure it out, but Tim is very knowledgable and honest about Cargill's products. I do believe the C3 wax is a veggie wax with additives. I do not remember it ever being a 100% soy wax. Could be wrong; old age and all, but that is what I remember. HTH

If you are saying, well C-3 is 100% soy wax.. Here is part of an email I got from Mary at Cargill over a year ago when I asked her if C-3 was mixed with any other oils.

"Our wax is made from soybean oil which is under the classification of vegetable oils. The product contains a certain amount of additives to help improve functionality but does not contain botanical oils. "

Never understood why they say 100% soy when it's not..

well I'm ok with 100% vegetable and all I guess, but geesh - honesty IS the best policy dontcha think?

OK, I went hunting and found this!

http://www.cargill.com/news/news_releases/2005/050720_naturewax.htm

Sounds to me like Cargill's waxes could be both veggie and soy, or are they one in the same? Can soy be considered a veggie? Now I am totally confused!

See what you have done to an old woman Stella! :laugh2:

Don't get mad at me for saying this but I think you guys are all reading way more into this than you need to. Sure it is going to have other ingredients in the formula but they wouldn't call it soy wax if it wasn't. I am sure it has to have a certain % (my guess 85% at least) of soybeans in the formula to be called 100% soy wax. Does it have other ingredients in it ? Probably. Do you honestly think you can take soybeans without any other ingredient/additives and make it a candle wax? Probably not. With that said I went on a search just for the heck of it and I found so many links I don't know which ones to post. However I did find this info I thought you might find interesting which makes my theory correct. I figured these were the links that might convince you. Acually the patent to nature wax is owned by the Indiana Soybean Board not Cargill they only have the exclusive right to market the product and distribute. Anyway hope this helps you

http://www.indianasoybean.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=39&Itemid=61

http://www.iasoybeans.com/checkoff/soycandleshistory.html

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6599334.html?highlight=indiana,soybean,board,candl,wax&stemming=on

I'm not happy about that either. I thought when something says Made from 100% soybeans that is the case? Anyways I wrote in to the company for info. on that. I usually get my C-3 from Lone Star and check out their description.

So then pariffin is made from petrolum which is oil, right? Isn't that a heating oil too.

As people like to think of it around here, "100% soy" is the flaked vegetable shortening that's sold to the food industry for baking, frying and whatever. Not a great candle wax by itself, but its use has been popularized among small candlemakers. Sometimes candlemaking suppliers resell it under a fancy name like Ez-Soy but you could just as well cook with it.

When something is sold by the manufacturer as being soy wax specifically for candlemaking, it's typically been optimized for that purpose through blending and additives that could be vegetable or petroleum derived. I doubt even Ecosoya "Pure Soy" is straight vegetable shortening, but there are at least a couple of other soybean-derived ingredients that could be found in a candle blend.

Soy waxes that include petroleum products tend to be identified as such because they're high-performance blends that people often have a special interest in. They produce more stable and aesthetically-pleasing results, versus all-vegetable candles that tend to change for the worse over time.

C-3 is an all-vegetable product as far as I know, but there's no definition in the industry that says soy wax can't include paraffin or petroleum products. Quite the contrary.

I have spoke to Cargill as well in the past and the C3 is between 85-95% soy the rest is emulsifiers and vegetable oil products that help the wax to "perform" well in candles. Don't shoot the messenger...this is what they told me! Cargill is real good at not giving you exact %. When I emailed them about C1, I got different % info from 2 of their people. I don't blame them for wanting to give out exact % info, but they will tell you what ingredients are in the wax. 415, on the other hand, usually comes in a box that says "food grade" 100% soy wax. I personally do not like 415 on it's own, so I'm glad that C3 has the other additives and as long as it's in the vege category...it's still in as "natural" a state as you can get.

After a LOT of research, I have found that most of the NatureWax C3 distributors listed on their site (with only a couple of exceptions) are all saying it is "100% soy wax." When Cargill itself does not note this on the NatureWax website ANYWHERE, I am thinking that they have updated their product description to something closer to the actual truth instead of splitting hairs to deliberately mislead people.

C-3 is an all-vegetable product as far as I know, but there's no definition in the industry that says soy wax can't include paraffin or petroleum products. Quite the contrary.

And that's the problem - there IS no industry standard to define how much soybean oil has to be contained in a wax for it to be called "soy wax." I am also not aware of an industry definition for "vegetable oils" and "botanical oils."

However, 100% DOES have a definition! The trick comes in how it is worded. "100% soy wax" means that the wax contains 100% soy wax, not that it IS 100% soy wax (whatever that is...).

People who are interested in the trend toward green stuff and "all-natural" everything can easily be misled by the vague ways that the manufacturers describe their products and in obscure industry definitions (or lack thereof). This post from the Nature's Gifts (mfg. of EcoSoya brand) forum illustrates the industry "doubletalk": http://www.ngiwax.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8

I am not singling out Dr. Al - he just said it best - because ALL of the manufacturer sites I read had the same vague rhetoric.

While I have used NatureWax C3 for several years, and enjoyed using it, I was deluded by the product descriptions into thinking I was using "100% soy wax."

I am disgusted at the deliberate manipulation by the soy wax industry's marketing, especially to folks who are concerned with ecological and health issues and are who are selling to customers in that market. What is so outlandish about simply telling the truth?

Since Cargill has partnered up with ISA why not just give ISA a call and ask them since you are not satisfied with the information Cargill is putting out. Personally I think the Cargill website sucks for information. I have found more info from the ISA than anywhere. Here is their # if your interested 1-800-735-0195. HTH

This post from the Nature's Gifts (mfg. of EcoSoya brand) forum illustrates the industry "doubletalk": http://www.ngiwax.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8

How is that double talk. Seems to me it's a good answer as usual from Dr. Al. They have a product called CB-Pure Soy, so if you want something where the base material and additives are all derived from soybeans it's pretty clear what you buy from them.

As of at least a few years ago it was discussed around here that C-3 isn't a 100% soy-derived product. It seemed to be common knowledge. If anyone was misled, it was probably due to the candlemaking suppliers.

Not many soy waxes are 100% soybean-derived. One thing the industry agrees on is that this has never been the definition of soy wax. However, there are clearly labeled all-soy products from EcoSoya and Enchanted Lites if that's your preference. I can think of 3 different general types of soy-derived materials those products could contain, all of which are obtainable if you'd prefer to blend your own.

Forum Board Participants:

I am new at this so please forgive me if I write too much or fail to answer your questions w/ enough detail. After reading the string below, I not real sure where to start. So, I'll do it by explaining what vegetable wax "is" and "is not" and why it is marketed differently be manufacturers, distributors and retailers.

"Vegetable Waxes" are waxes derivied from plant based material where the plant is grown annually or is curently growing. Candelilia or Carnuba waxes naturally accure on the leaves of specific plants and the wax is extracted and processed.

Soybean wax or Palm waxes are processed from the oil that is extracted from the seeds of their respective plants. While palm oil when first processed from the palm fruit is semi-solid at room temperature (similar to Crisco®) soybean oil is liquid at room temperature. Both feedstocks are then "hardened" to a specifc melt point and penetration value by means of hydrogenation. Soybean, palm, cotton most other vegetable oils or waxes are known in the carbon family as "tri-glycerides". "Tri" meaning there are 3 carbon chains each 16-18 carbons long attached to a "Glycerin" backbone. These carbon chains have both single and double bonds. (Wish you hadn't asked, don't ya:smiley2: ) During the hydrogenation process we introduce hydrogen in the presence of a catalyst and break the double bonds and connect the hydrogen atoms to the carbon chain. The more double bonds we break, the "harder" the wax becomes thus raising it's melt point.

While, you can use just plain hydrogenated soy, cotton or palm as a wax to mfg candles we have found unfavorable characteristics, thus Cargill has developed blends of various hydrogenated feedstocks blended with "food grade" additives to improve functionality and minimize the specific charateristics of blooming, cauliflowering, cracking and pull-away. We've protected our developments with various patents which are public and can be viewed at that US Patent & Trademark website. We are coninually trying to improve our portfolio of waxes, thus hope to be able to introduce some new "novel wax technologies" very soon.

In addition, to our own devleopment and research, we have partnered with the Indiana Soybean Board to commercialize their intellectual property. We also work closely with the Iowa Soybean Board and the United Soybean Board to improve our product lines and to support new uses for soybeans.

So, why doesn't Cargill openly advertise All our products as being 100% soy?

Because they arn't. Some are blends of soy and palm. Some, are indeed 100% soy, NatureWax® C-3 is one of those 100% soy blends. The additives, while indeed food grade, may be based from a palm product, but if the basestock that the blend is formulated from is 100% soy, then seems naturally we could market as such.

I don't believe reputable wax manufacturers or distributors are trying to decieve the small candle mfg or consumer by advertising their products as vegetable based versus soy based to hide the components. Just the opposite, they are trying to NOT Mis-Represent what they are selling.

Cargill Website

I apologize if the Cargill website doesn't provide enough information to the users. The site is designed to provide basic information about our product line and provide a means to contact a Cargill Representative. All firms must decide "how" they want to "go to market". Cargill's approach is to work directly with our customers. We don't want to be an internet based business model, and our web-site reflects our strategy. As indicated by one of the earlier postings, we can be reached at (877-727-0696) and we would love to help you grow your business.

Again, I apologize for the length. Thank you for trying and using the NatureWax® products.

Del Craig

NatureWax® Product Line Manager

Some, are indeed 100% soy, NatureWax® C-3 is one of those 100% soy blends. The additives, while indeed food grade, may be based from a palm product

So for my thick head - is C-3 made ONLY of soy or are there non-soy additives?

Forum Board Participants:

I am new at this so please forgive me if I write too much or fail to answer your questions w/ enough detail. After reading the string below, I not real sure where to start. So, I'll do it by explaining what vegetable wax "is" and "is not" and why it is marketed differently be manufacturers, distributors and retailers.

"Vegetable Waxes" are waxes derivied from plant based material where the plant is grown annually or is curently growing. Candelilia or Carnuba waxes naturally accure on the leaves of specific plants and the wax is extracted and processed.

Soybean wax or Palm waxes are processed from the oil that is extracted from the seeds of their respective plants. While palm oil when first processed from the palm fruit is semi-solid at room temperature (similar to Crisco®) soybean oil is liquid at room temperature. Both feedstocks are then "hardened" to a specifc melt point and penetration value by means of hydrogenation. Soybean, palm, cotton most other vegetable oils or waxes are known in the carbon family as "tri-glycerides". "Tri" meaning there are 3 carbon chains each 16-18 carbons long attached to a "Glycerin" backbone. These carbon chains have both single and double bonds. (Wish you hadn't asked, don't ya:smiley2: ) During the hydrogenation process we introduce hydrogen in the presence of a catalyst and break the double bonds and connect the hydrogen atoms to the carbon chain. The more double bonds we break, the "harder" the wax becomes thus raising it's melt point.

While, you can use just plain hydrogenated soy, cotton or palm as a wax to mfg candles we have found unfavorable characteristics, thus Cargill has developed blends of various hydrogenated feedstocks blended with "food grade" additives to improve functionality and minimize the specific charateristics of blooming, cauliflowering, cracking and pull-away. We've protected our developments with various patents which are public and can be viewed at that US Patent & Trademark website. We are continually trying to improve our portfolio of waxes, thus hope to be able to introduce some new "novel wax technologies" very soon.

In addition, to our own devleopment and research, we have partnered with the Indiana Soybean Board to commercialize their intellectual property. We also work closely with the Iowa Soybean Board and the United Soybean Board to improve our product lines and to support new uses for soybeans.

So, why doesn't Cargill openly advertise All our products as being 100% soy?

Because they arn't. Some are blends of soy and palm. Some, are indeed 100% soy, NatureWax® C-3 is one of those 100% soy blends. The additives, while indeed food grade, may be based from a palm product, but if the basestock that the blend is formulated from is 100% soy, then seems naturally we could market as such.

I don't believe reputable wax manufacturers or distributors are trying to decieve the small candle mfg or consumer by advertising their products as vegetable based versus soy based to hide the components. Just the opposite, they are trying to NOT Mis-Represent what they are selling.

Cargill Website

I apologize if the Cargill website doesn't provide enough information to the users. The site is designed to provide basic information about our product line and provide a means to contact a Cargill Representative. All firms must decide "how" they want to "go to market". Cargill's approach is to work directly with our customers. We don't want to be an internet based business model, and our web-site reflects our strategy. As indicated by one of the earlier postings, we can be reached at (877-727-0696) and we would love to help you grow your business.

Again, I apologize for the length. Thank you for trying and using the NatureWax® products.

Del Craig

NatureWax® Product Line Manager

Thanks so much for your informative reply, Del!

You are a prince for taking your time to reply!

I appreciated speaking with Ross yesterday and he cleared up many of my questions.

Hopefully Cargill can take the lead in establishing some vegetable wax industry standards and definitions that will enable candlemakers to provide accurate information to their customers.

Your head is not thick, you are just trying to understand from "what feedstocks or ingredients" our product is manufactured. Our NatureWax® C-3 is manufactured with soy based wax and soy based additives. There is nothing in the NatureWax® C-3 wax that is NOT soy based.

Wonderful explaination Del, thanks for coming on here to clarify all this for us.

Your head is not thick, you are just trying to understand from "what feedstocks or ingredients" our product is manufactured. Our NatureWax® C-3 is manufactured with soy based wax and soy based additives. There is nothing in the NatureWax® C-3 wax that is NOT soy based.

Perfectly clear now! Thank you for making yourself available to us.

Del-

I have a question regarding your votive (V1) wax. There have been a lot of people on this board, myself included, who have had many problems with this wax, including cracking badly once cooled. Although some of us have worked the issues out by adding certain things (I was told to add 10% C3 to a lb of wax and with the only batch I made this way, they came out fine when cooled in a warm oven).

My question is this: given the fact that my supplier stated that Cargill has no intention to improve on V1 to work out its quirks, how are we supposed to continue to buy it if we constantly have to tweak it? I am considering a different brand because of all the headaches this wax has caused me.

Thanks,

Violet

I know that the V-1 is not a perfect wax and continue to work on developing a new improved votive wax. I have not replaced V-1 yet because I was not happy with any of the products that I came up, until now. I just finished work on two new pillar waxes NatureWax P-2 and P-3. The P-2 wax would work very well as a votive wax. With this new wax I have not seen any fat bloom(frostinng) and it tends to handle more like paraffin.

Now the kicker. We have not released this new wax to our distributors yet. Please watch our distributors for these two new waxes in the coming months.

Tim Murphy

NatureWax Technical Director

woo hoo!!!

I know that the V-1 is not a perfect wax and continue to work on developing a new improved votive wax. I have not replaced V-1 yet because I was not happy with any of the products that I came up, until now. I just finished work on two new pillar waxes NatureWax P-2 and P-3. The P-2 wax would work very well as a votive wax. With this new wax I have not seen any fat bloom(frostinng) and it tends to handle more like paraffin.

Now the kicker. We have not released this new wax to our distributors yet. Please watch our distributors for these two new waxes in the coming months.

Tim Murphy

NatureWax Technical Director

This is definitely nice to hear. What about cracking issues? Those have been the biggest concerns here. Especially with darker colors and during colder months... running the oven each time a batch of votives is poured can become costly in itself. It seems that is the only thing that helps, though...

Are you going to offer special sample prices so that distributors can offer samples of each wax? Just curious because buying a 50 lb box of wax is exhorbitant if it does not work out. Even buying 10 lbs is, as well. I still have 4 lbs of P1 that I haven't been able to use, as well as 30 lbs of V1.

As an aside, my distributor has stated that she will not be able to gain a refund or any sort of discount because of the V1 she feels is not saleable in its current form... meaning, too many people have had issues with V1. I personally feel she should be compensated. She has a small business and is trying to expand. I feel it is Nature Wax's responsibility to ensure customer satisfaction, whether it be on retail or wholesale level.

Thanks for your responses so far. They are greatly appreciated.

Violet