HELP- new oils separating from wax

[dianad]

(Sorry, this is a long one)...

Although I usually just make tarts, and only for myself, I hope I'm posting in the right place.

I've been making tarts for about 2 years now, and occasionally a candle now and then. (I can't ever get my candles to smell, so it's tarts for me!) I've always used IGI 4794 and IGI 4786 waxes. I heat my wax to around 185, pour it into my pour pot that already contains my fragrance oil, stir for about 1 minute, and pour into the molds. By the time I pour, the wax is usually around 165 to 170 degrees.

Now, my problem.

I recently purchased oils from a new supplier, Only Fragrance.net. The owner, Luis, is a wonderful young man -- extraordinary customer service by the way! I started making some tarts today, and found that the oils were not mixing into the wax completely. I've never had to stir my wax during the pouring, but found that I had to this time. (I only make a 12 ounce batch at a time). Even with stiring the wax/oil, the oil would separate and settle to the bottom of the pour pot. By the time I poured the last couple of tarts, there was a good bit of oil settled in the bottom.

I tried 4 different batches. Each time, I heated my wax hotter, with the last time being the wax was heated to 200 before adding to the oil and mixing. Stirred ALOT more. Each time, it was the same- oil sinking to the bottom of the pot. And after unmolding the tarts, sure enough, they all have oil on the bottoms.

I mixed all batches at 8% or at 6% fragrance load.

The only other variance from my normal process is, I ordered my wax from a different supplier, one that I found closer to me-DPS Morris Wax. I usually order from Peak's and Candle Science, but always the same type--IGI 4794 and 4786.

Is IGI brand wax going to be the same, regardless of who you buy it from?

To test to see if there was a problem with this batch of wax, I also made up a couple batches of tarts, using oils from 2 other suppliers that I use regularly. Fragrance oil mixed in fine, just like always. No separating oil, no oil on the bottoms of tarts.

I just can't figure why the new oils are not mixing in and staying mixed. Please, can anyone tell me what is wrong, and how to correct the problem??

I"ve read on the Fragrance section of the forum, alot of folks are having fantastic results with this company's oils- no one's having a problem except me!! What am I doing wrong? HELP please!

[EricofAZ]

The proper forum is the wickless forum.

Well, I think your testing has already identified that the new supplier's FO doesn't mix. Changing wax supplier shouldn't matter, if its IGI, then it comes from one of 4 plants around the country and while there are variations from batch to batch, they won't be that dramatic.

8 percent is doable in 4786. I don't know about 4794, but both are 4700 series wax and should be quite similar in the FO loading.

I've never heard of the supplier you mention. Sounds like the FO might be a water based FO, so it would precipitate out. Did you hear it boil when you got to 200 degrees?

Raising the temperature won't help the FO. It either is going to mix or it won't. Generally, I pour the FO into the wax, not the other way around, but I doubt that is the problem here.

I bet if you do a polarization test, your new FO would fail. Non-gel wax can handle a certain amount of water, but very little. I bet your FO has too much. Ask if there is any emulsifier in the FO (which would give you the clue that it has water in it).

I love the smell of A&E Oils out of the bottle, but they do what you are describing, they don't mix and half the amount settles to the bottom. So its either water based with emulsifiers, or some type of oil that is just not compatible with wax.

I'm curious about your containers. Are they plastic? Do you have any difficulty getting the 4786 to release? I had to give up on using that for tarts or clamshells.

Edited August 23, 2011 by EricofAZ

[dianad]

EricofAZ--Thanks so much for responding to my dilemma. I will contact the oil supplier with the question about the use of an emulsifier. I had no idea about such things.

"Generally, I pour the FO into the wax, not the other way around, but I doubt that is the problem here." - I just do it that way because I'm lazy! It's easier for me to wipe out my little plastic pour pitcher, than to clean out the hot melt pot each time, for such small batches like I make!

"Did you hear it boil when you got to 200 degrees?" - No- no sizzle, popping, at all.

"I bet if you do a polarization test, your new FO would fail." - I don't have any idea what a polarization test is, I'll have to hunt that up.

"I'm curious about your containers. Are they plastic?" - I use a metal pan that has 12 mini hearts in each pan mold. Purchased at Candles and Supplies.

"Do you have any difficulty getting the 4786 to release?" - I always just put the pans in the freezer for a little while after they have skinned over, and they tarts pop right out. I sometimes mix the 4786 and 4794 together, 50/50. Just depends on what wax I have laying around. The 4786 melts in the warmer quicker, of course. I've mixed them for clamshells, too, at the 50/50, and they came out easily.

[Lorelei]

I don't know what FO's you bought there but he also has "body oils" that are not for candles but if you aren't really paying attention you could have purchased one of those and I think those are cut with another carrier oil possibly. I've never ordered from there but watched all the threads and read their website.

[dianad]

Yes, I am aware that he has both the body and candle oils. I have only ordered the candle oils.

As I said before, all the folks that are commenting on the fragrances link, are having great success with his oils. The 2 that I tried tonight are Amish Harvest and Maple Crunch. Do you think there could be a difference for me, since I only use paraffin and not soy?

[JanetsCandles]

One thing I'd suggest first is to back down on your FO load. Some of the heavier oils will only take 3 or 4% before they start to separate. It can be frustrating, but that's the point of testing. I can't promise that's the problem, but it's a starting point. It's a good thought to keep in mind that even if the name of the FO is the same, it often is made by a different manufacturer, so will have different components and different reactions at different loads.

[dianad]

O.K. - Thanks. Wouldn't that be something if I had to use LESS oil for a change!

[jeanie353]

Yes, I am aware that he has both the body and candle oils. I have only ordered the candle oils.

As I said before, all the folks that are commenting on the fragrances link, are having great success with his oils. The 2 that I tried tonight are Amish Harvest and Maple Crunch. Do you think there could be a difference for me, since I only use paraffin and not soy?

My opinion only...I don't think using paraffin and not soy would be the cause of this. I'm interested to see how this progresses as you test lower amounts b/c I am/was going to be placing an order next week with this new supplier. I have also been keeping up with the other thread where many have ordered and are now posting results on the fragrances from this new supplier.

[dianad]

I, like you, didn't think that my using paraffin wax should make any difference. I'm just befuddled as to why everyone else is having success with these oils, and I'm having such trouble. I'm also afraid that a lower percentage of oil will give me no scent. Will have to see how it works.

[jeanie353]

It has me befuddled as well...lol. The waxes you are using should be able to take 6%. I'm not sure about 8% but even at that I could see leaving a little oil residue if the wax couldn't take it all or finding some on the bottom after mixing but not all of it. What you are experiencing has me tapping the brakes on my order until I hear more. Please keep us informed.

[chuck_35550]

I'd just about bet that the supplier sent you the wrong oil. You need to contact him and describe your results. If he hasn't sent you the wrong oil, then that's a bad formulation that's been cut too much. I've only had one fo that wouldn't mix and it was a new formulation of an old oil. HTH

Steve

[number2of7]

I've used several of their oils recently with no problems, but I haven't used the two you're having problems with -- I would DEFINITELY contact Luis and tell him the problems that you're having.

But I wouldn't totally disregard the wax as not being the problem -- even though IGI should universally be the same, I've had batches here and there with water in them (not with IGI, but with other waxes). I recently had Vanilla Bean Noel separate from my wax and this is an oil I've never had problems with. So, the water in the wax was my issue!

[ChrisR]

You could try adding a touch of vybar to see if that helps bind your FO to your wax. IMHO though, sounds like junk FO's that you will never get to mix with your wax and I'd definately dump him from my supplier list!!

[dianad]

Just got home and will try some more tarts tonight. Luis answered my email, and bless his heart, he said that I could return the oils, if couldn't get them to work for me. Now, that's customer service!! I'll post the results of the tarts I make this evening.

jeanie353: I didn't mean to scare anyone off of this company. Luis has been great! Before last night, I had only used the sample bottles of oil to make up some incense, since I had been out of wax. Incense was fine, and as you know, I'm the only odd ball that has had a problem, according to everyone on the Fragrance thread. As I said, Luis offered to let me return the oils, if I can't figure this out--where else are you going to find customer service like that these days!!?

ChrisR: I have never used Vybar, and don't have any. Wish I did. I've read a little about it here, but not sure how to use it. Is it for helping to bind the oil? I'm never sure if it's that, or Stearic. Thanks.

number2of7: You and everyone else has had fantastic results from this company...So it must be something I'm doing wrong-just can't understand what in the world it could be. This is a first for me.

As far as the possibility of water in the wax, so far, I haven't noticed any popping sounds while melting.

Do you use soy wax for your candle making? I've only ever used paraffin.

[jeanie353]

That is great news you are getting replacements. People have been reporting excellent customer service. I did email him once myself on how to put in my shopping cart the .99 sample pack and he responded within like 15 minutes via email. I wasn't going to discard the company as a possible source but I was going to hold off a bit on my order next week to see how this went and if anyone else came up with problems. I was just being cautious because it is a new with such great prices.

Edited August 23, 2011 by jeanie353

[redraider]

It sounds like by the names of the scents that these are fall fragrances and many of them contain a high level of vanilla in them which makes them very "heavy". You might try mixing with a whisk instead of a spoon for about a minute. This will create some bubbles on the top but just tap the side of your container before you poor and most of those bubbles with go away. I do this when using any heavy FO and it keeps the fragrance from settling.

[dianad]

redraider: I've never tried using a wisk. I definately will give that a try. I just use my old spoon.

Here are the results for tonights tart making session. All were made using IGI 4786. Also, these were very small batches, to save using up my wax - 6 to 10 ounce batches.

Heated wax to 185, added to oil in pour pot, stirred for about 1 minute, and poured into molds. Same way I always do it.

Tomorrow I plan on using IGI 4794, and see if there is any difference.

It may be like comparing apples and oranges, since I didn't use the same 2 oils as I used yesterday. I'm out of the Amish Harvest, and have just enough of the Maple Crunch to use tomorrow, when trying the 4794.

SWEET PEA: ( 2 batches)

1st batch - 5% load - had a very small amount of oil in the bottom of pour pot by the time I poured the last 2 tarts. When removed from mold, had to wipe off excess oil from those 2 tarts.

2nd batch - 4% load - no excess oil in pour pot, or on finished tarts.

BUTT NAKED: (2 batches)

1st batch - 5 % load - no excess oil left in pour pot, or on finished tarts.

2nd batch - 8% load (took a gamble!) - no excess oil in pour pot, or on tarts.

THE SUGAR COOKIE: (2 batches)

1st batch - 5% load - had a very small amount of oil in the bottom of pour pot by the time I poured the last 2 tarts. When removed from mold, had to wipe off excess oil from those 2 tarts. I was surprised, since it was a vanilla based scent!

2nd batch- 8% load - (Got brave, since there was so little oil drop out at 5%, plus it smelled SO GOOD it was all I could do to keep from taking a swig out of the bottle!) - bad idea!! More oil in bottom of pour pot than any of the other scents, and actually had to pry out the last tart, due to alot of oil in the bottom of the mold, keeping a suction on that little dude!

ICED CRANBERRY: ( Only made one batch- I was getting tired!)

6% load - got lucky - no separation in pour pot, or after removing tarts.

Tomorrow I'll see if I can go up any on percentages with the 4794. I'm afraid that since I seem to have to use such small percentages with these oils, I won't be able to make a STRONG tart like I'm used to having. I just make them for me, and I can't smell them if they're not strong. I usually make tarts with an 8% to 10% load. I get my oils from Peak's, Candle Science, Bert's, Moonworks, The Candle Source, and Millcreek. I've always been able to mix at 8% and 10% using 4794 and 4786, but not with this suppliers oils, it appears. I'll wait a day or two, and see if I can smell them. I hope so. But I still don't understand why I am having to use such small percentages of oil!!

I'm wondering what % oil the folks that are making candles with these oils are using?

I did pour a few small candles - votives and small 2 ounce jars - while I was making these tarts, and as usual, I can't smell any throw from the candles at all. Never can. That's why I just stick with tarts. Someday, I'd like to be able to make good, strong candles like the rest of you!!

[dianad]

chuck_35550: Steve - When you say that the oil may be cut too much, what is it cut with? I've never known what's in fragrance oil anyway. Is it made with scent and DPG, or what? Is it like when I make incense, the instructions say to use 1 part fragrance oil, to 2-3 parts DPG. It makes the oil go further. Too me, it just weakens the scent, and I use a 1-1 ratio. If that's the same with fragrance oils, then I guess I won't be able to use the oils from this company, since my point is to make STRONG smelling tarts. Not wimpy ones, like you buy at WallyWorld, etc.

[Abigtroutt]

Now I'm worried!! I just placed a big order based on the reviews, but if it does not work well in candles I can always put it in soap since it is body safe also. When I get my order and makes candles I'll let you know also. I use soy for my jars and pillars but I dont think it will make much of a difference what wax its put in. A sinker is a sinker....

[chuck_35550]

Solvents and fillers are used to cut the fragrance oil. Candle Coccoon has a good explanation on their website. Candle or soap safe doesn't automatically cover all the bases. It may have been formulated with solvents that react to vegetable based waxes or paraffin based waxes, it may be soap safe but causes immediate seizing in the cp method. You buy a sample and test it in your chosen medium(s) and find out its properties. Why not dillute a product and get twice as much if no one notices or complains? I'm not saying this is the intent here but I am saying that formulation is the end all to a really useful fo. I have some great fos that sit on the shelf and mock me, because they don't work in any of the raw materials I currently use. It sounds like these fos are poorly formulated and need to be pulled and re-formulated. It happens all the time to the best of the disttibutors. It doesn't mean everything is bad, just the couple you happened to purchase. HTH

Steve

Edited August 24, 2011 by chuck_35550

[dianad]

Solvents and fillers are used to cut the fragrance oil.

Steve

What are the solvents and fillers? I can't afford to have oils sitting around that won't work for me. Generally I use, 8% to 10%, depending on the scent, from other suppliers, and have not had any problems. I'll never be able to smell these at 4%!

Why do others report success and I'm having nothing but trouble? Other posters are saying they are using these oils at 9%! So far, it seems that they only work for me at 4% - 5%.

[carol k]

These oils are not cut. I use 10% in gb415 soywax with no seepage & awesome hot throws. Best oils i've tried in a long time. I've been making candles alot of years & I know great when I get them. Just a note amish harvest & Maple hazelnut crunch bars are both heavy oils.

[dianad]

These oils are not cut. I use 10% in gb415 soywax with no seepage & awesome hot throws. Best oils i've tried in a long time. I've been making candles alot of years & I know great when I get them. Just a note amish harvest & Maple hazelnut crunch bars are both heavy oils.

What temp to do you heat wax, add oil, pour? I only use paraffin. I tried 5% in Sweet Pea last night, and got oil in the bottom of pour pot, and in the molds when removing tarts. I can't imagine what 10% would have been like! I know that you are all giving good reports- that's what I'm trying to figure out, why they won't stay mixed for me. As stated, I've never had a problem before, and use good quality oils.

[carol k]

What temp to do you heat wax, add oil, pour? I only use paraffin. I tried 5% in Sweet Pea last night, and got oil in the bottom of pour pot, and in the molds when removing tarts. I can't imagine what 10% would have been like! I know that you are all giving good reports- that's what I'm trying to figure out, why they won't stay mixed for me. As stated, I've never had a problem before, and use good quality oils.

It sounds like a bad batch of wax to me.

[dianad]

It sounds like a bad batch of wax to me.

You didn't say what temp you heat wax, add oil, pour? You are using a different type of wax than I am. Do you use 10% in all scents, and do you only use GB 415?